how little is to little
 

my sister has a yorkie that is about 4lbs. she wants to breed her so she has a puppy from her. dou all think it's safe? if it's safe, what size yorkie do you suggest she breed with? :confused:

I am not a breeder but I hope a breeder sees and replys to your post. I have always heard the female should be at least 5 lbs to breed and the male should be smaller than the female.

Do your sister a favor and click on the search button here on YT and type in breeding tinies. Maybe if you show your sister these articles and also what goes into breeding she will have second thoughts. Breeding is not a one time adventure to get another dog as any time can be dangerous for these little ones. Alot of testing needs to be done to be sure the female can handle having a litter along with many expensive tests that need to be done on the puppies. I would hate to have your sister lose her baby because she didn't know the risks.

It is excellent that you are asking the question and using the search link will give you lots of answers.

I agree with the posts above. I am not a breeder, but I do know that breeding is very risky to the mother and the puppies, especially if she is under 5 lbs. I suggest that you take livingdustmops advice and do a search. Show your sister all that goes into breeding and make sure she knows about all of the expenses and risks. I hope this post helped you out a little bit. :D

anything under 5lbs is at much higher risk, there are several threads here on YT addressing this issue here is a heart felt thread because she bred her tiny girl and lost her and most of her litter http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27086

I am not a breeder but I have done a lot of research in this area and I would say the bigger the female the more you reduce the risk of "dystocia" or difficulty in delivery.

There have been studies done to suggest that small breed dogs already have a greater risk of death or serious injury or illness to the breeding female than most breeds of dogs and yorkshire terriers are even more prone to problems.... so a person who seriously considers breeding must do a lot of research and study very hard and have any prospective females evaluated thoroughly by a reproductive specalist before even considering a mating.

The studies I have read also suggest that there is a higher incidence of problems in females that are smaller than the breed average. The breed average for yorkies is 5 to 7 lbs if I am not mistaken so a beginner breeder should never attempt to breed anything smaller than 5 lbs in my opinion with 6 or 7 lbs being better. You should only do this after much research and under the guidance of an experienced and reputable yorkie breeder mentor who will be there to assist at the whelping.

IMO only the very experienced breeder under the guidance of a reproductive specialist should attempt to breed a yorkie under four pounds and no female under 4 lbs should be bred at all imo.

Can you please post the links to these studies? I know of no breed specific (yorkshire Terrier) studies published that validate your posts.

Sure...I had already referenced the citation in two other posts today in different threads so I didn't do it here, but I found this when we were researching the risk of breeding the female yorkie, but I was able to post it in that a thread as the thread was closed before I could do so.

The survey is cited and some of the results are presented in "table" or graph form on page 148 of this veterinary article on dydtocia.
http://www.intl.elsevierhealth.com/e-books/pdf/974.pdf

I don't understand the use of the term "breed standard" with the quote of 5-7 pounds. If I read the standard correctly, the standard is to 7 pounds as adult. Are you using the term in a different context? I have not read the other posts so if you have answered this question just refer me back to the post.
I read and see a lot of opinions stated by authors-I am not referring to the originator of this post as I do not know her or where she finds her search results, so do not take this personally. I am saying that many times when I have read results of some search it ends up being little more than the opinion or translation of the data of the author.
I have known and continue to have very well known friends/breeders and it seems we can have as many opinions about some of these "facts" as we have numbers of breeders discussing the reports.
The current differing opinions about PSS that is being discussed now is one example that comes to mind. These things can be very disconcerting to responsible breeders, handlers and owners. I hope I have not gone too far off topic but to me so many facets of breeding and caring for our breed are intertwined.

I used the term "breed average" when referring to the weight of the dog...not "breed standard". The veterinary survey I referenced mentioned that 26% of the dogs who had dystocia were "under the breed average" in weight. This supports the idea that it is riskier to breed smaller than average yorkies.

While the breed standard for weight is "up to 7 lbs", the "breed average" weight for the yorkie is around 5 to 7 lbs I believe. Is this correct?

What is PSS?

This is what I posted in another thread earlier to day:

Small breed dogs in particular seem to have a greater risk and problem with dystocia than other breeds. There is a survey on dytocia dicussed in this article done in South Wales and it was conducted in 12 veterinary practices. Of the 265 cases of dystocia 26% were yorkies, 8% were jack russell and 8% were welsh corgies. The only problem with the accuracy of the survey is that there was no information as to the numbers of these different breeds in the general dog population of the area so there may have just been more yorkies there.

In any case, the experinced breeders on here and elsewhere will tell you that there is a high risk to breeding any yorkie female so it is very important if and when you decide to think seriously about breeding any female that you do everything posssible to minimize this risk.

where are you citing all your other information from? breed average for example is merely not to exceed 7lbs it is not written anywhere breed average 5-7lbs

here is another with far less stats on dystocia
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:e...+terrier&hl=en

I have been researching Maltese lately, and I know that they have a best at 4 1/2-6lbs...However, I've never seen that as far a yorkies go..Everywhere I've been that catered to Yorkies be it, shady or reputable...is say's to not exceed 7 pounds..In fact that particular quote has been quoted to me often here! :confused:

Edited...I think I am mistaken again... :confused: :(

"breed standard" weight and "breed average" weight are not synonymous and I have no source for the fact that the "breed average" is 5-7 except that that is what I have read here which is why I said

"is this correct?" :)

I knew that "breed average" sounded familiar to me..The only place I've seen that is in my Yorkies for Dummies book..here is that exact quote from their website!!!
"Compact and well-proportioned stature: Size and body structure matter. The breed standard stipulates that Yorkies must not be over 7 pounds and, on average, adult Yorkies fall between a petite 5–7 pounds. (Remember, however, that some Yorkies are smaller and some are larger.) In terms of body structure, everything should be in proportion and just, well, fit."

It doesn't quite say breed average..but I guess this is what you mean, Kim..HUH?

Yes, thank you for the citation...the "breed average" weight is 5-7 lbs. according to Yorkies for Dummies.

See http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28325

Do you ever offer advice to members in emergencies that are not breeding related?

If no one more experienced in an area is available at the time, I would not hesitate to advise in areas in which I have knowledge whether it is from experience or study...it may be...call the Emergency vet or it may be induce vomiting if they ate chocolate or human medicine, or it may be to refer them to the CPR thread, or it may be to tell them about vaccines or what I know about spaying and neutering and I am not a vet, and I am not a breeder, and I am do not show for hobby, but I love yorkshire terriers, I am well sudied, I have experience with four yorkies, I have owned and trained dogs all of my life and I will help anyone in need of help if I feel I can do it with more benefit than harm.

I was once on here when there were not as many experienced breeders here and none online at the moment and a member called in a panic about a mommy giving birth and trying to eat the puppies. I did a quit search on the internet, PM'd YorkieRose and stayed online until someone more experienced came. I mostly just posted vet info I found on the internet and urged her to call the emergency vet. It turned out the mother was just overly aggressive with the umbilical cord and the puppy was fine. I feel that I helped if for no other reason than that I was there with her.

I am sorry that you feel the way you do but I offered no bad advice in this thread. My advice and my citations were accurate.

I use the font changes to get people's attention and make it easier to read when I have a lot of information I am imparting.

First off, let me say that I skimmed over the info on the site that you provided and the information is very interesting. I have every intention of reading it when I find the time.
Not to discredit your citations, but although they were accurate, they were not complete (nor were they complete in the document) and are therefore misleading. The site states that in the study, 265 bitches presented were in fact having whelping problems. However, 265 out of how many? 500? 1000? 10,000? We have no way of knowing. For all we know, 265 is a very low percentage. Also, 26% of the 265 found were "smaller than the breed average" so obvoiusly, the chance of their being whelping complications is of course, high...THEY'RE TINIES!
Again, like I said, I found the information interesting, but I do not think, IMO, that enough information has been provided in regards to the study to give anyone anything concrete to base anything on.

Hey there Teresa....You asked how little is TOO Little ?

MANY of the people here on this site are really great about sharing their breeding experiences ...and as breeders ...they normally steer someone clear of breeding a female - especially a TINY female... just so they can have a puppy by her....

Your sister needs to be aware that she stands a good chance of losing her little yorkie if she decides to go ahead and breed...it's not as easy breeding a yorkie as it is a larger dog....Her yorkie is very small.... so in turn - it's more dangerous. IF she loves her baby - she probably should just go ahead and spay her.

I hope this makes sense and we're ALL here to help if you have more questions...

Thank you Southern Cal for sharing your article.

The statement that I enjoyed the most was " Advice regarding patients suitability for breed standard viewpoint or the show potential of progeny is best sought from expereinced breeder". Sorry I do not know how to cut and paste so I had to type it in.


As we all now no matter what your point of view - if you dig deep enough you can find a article that will suport your point of view.

JMHO- we do need to read and do research. Take each article for what it is the authors point of view. Some of the articles that I have seen listed here on YT have been good others are rather humerous.

There is a lot to be said on the positive side when you talk with experienced breeders. Folks are correct when they state on here they are not a breeder but IMHO they should also be careful about what they are posting. Reading a article does not mean that it is valid and should be quoted as the path to follow.

I am not a car mechanic- I can read a articles about rebuilding my engine. Sure hope that I do not make myself out as a expert because of what I have been reading. IMHO- you take this reading material and talk it over with a REAL MECHANIC. I could be in a big mess if I tried to tear my engine apart with no hands on experience.

That is why if you want to breed you are encouraged and I urge you to - watch a female be bred, observe the changes during a pregnancy, watch as many labor and deliverys as you can- watch those tails being docked and dew claws removed. Watch a litter of puppies grow and see the development of the little monsters. Little yorkie puppies can be quite characters from a early age.

Do you have to have a reproductive specialist- Heavens no. Do you need a qualified vet. You sure do. You need to spend a lot of time in researching and find that special person. Most folks will not find a reproductive specialist that takes routine cases. I have raised cats, horses, pigs, cattle, goats and dogs and have never needed the servies. If I did is there one available - yes at my local vet school. Would my vet refer me if needed yes. If you are lucky enough to have this reproductive specialist and they will take you as a routine client- fantastic.

Am I a bad breeder becasue I am not using a reproductive specialist? I do not think so. I purchased my first yorkie in 1973- too date I have never had to use a reproductive speacialist and have never been told that I needed the services of one. When that situation presents itself and I have the need then I will make that appointment. I have never had a female die from breeding from any of the above breeds of animals that I have raised- very few c-sections and a very low ratio on loss of life on the babies. I like to think it is beacuse I have done my homework hands on as well as reading and thank all the folks who had the time and patience to help me grow and learn.

Wow! Kathy, I want to grow up and be just like you!

Excellent post!

keeping it simple here...

4lbs is too little.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I AGREE totally !

Maddie was not tiny. She was 5lbs. pre pregnancy at 9.5 months according to a previous post.

the YTCA has this to say.

http://www.ytca.org/faq.html#A
Many breeders prefer a
general weight range of 4-7 four pounds believing that size retains desired Toy
qualities while maintaining optimum health. The Yorkie Standard states weight
"must not exceed seven pounds" and as a prospective pet owner you should
realize that even at 7 pounds, the Yorkie is still a small dog. (Females weighing
less than 5 pounds are considered by most breeders to be unsuitable for breeding.)

That being said, I find it interesting that many breeders show females that are just 4lbs. If they go through the time and expense to show them I bet they end up breeding them. Guess they fatten them up pre pregnancy?

Yes, though it is stated there, that is the one and only place that I've ever seen "breed average" I also think that we should go with what the YTCA has on it's website..that has also been stated in this Thread...I am sorry for the confusion, IMHO, I thought it was evident that that was the "ONLY" place that I could find(and goodness know's I searched) that "EVER" cited "breed average" My true honest beliefs.... :confused: :confused:

How old is she?

From what I've gathered reading about this, it's risky to breed at all, but weight is not the crucial factor, pelvic size is. Your vet is best qualified to determine that.

Please read this story from a member here that bred her bitch that was too small...

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...ght=breed+tiny

my sisters dog is 2 yrs old. everyone says it's not a good idea to breed her so i will pass the advice onto my sister. shes close to 4lbs. i told her to take her to the vet and have the vet examine her and get his opinion because i surely don't want to give her bad advice and something happen to her dog and it be my fault. she loves her dog so much and she just wanted to have one of her puppies.