Does this breeder seem like a good breeder?
 

Pardon me if I don't disclose the name of the breeder--she only has one little pup left so I'm being a teensy bit selfish :P

PROS:
-She posts lots of pictures of the pups
-She posts tons of videos of the pups.
-For her breeding, she has two females and one male. It looks like she breeds each female once a year. She has a couple other females/males, but she retired them. She currently has a younger female and put down a deposit for a male for her "next generation" of breeding.
-She provided me references--I contacted about 3 people and they all had nice things to say about her. Reference A had a 12 week old pup from her, Reference B had a now 4 year old and 1 year old from her, and Reference C had a now 2 year old pup from her. All three references were very pleased with their pups.

-All three references told me that when they saw the pup that the pup appeared very clean and healthy and happy.
-She was very honest and upfront.
-She does aptitude testing.
-She follows up on pups after being adopted and hosts an annual "get-together" event.
-She does vaccinations. No coronavirus/lepto.
-On some old pictures on her FB page she did post pictures of the dam and sire of the pup I'm looking at's AKC registration certificate. It looks completely legitimate.
-She told me in detail about each pup in the litter's personalities. Very informative.
-She requires all potential adopters to fill out an adoption application.
-She posts tons of tips/advice on her FB page about deworming, etc.,
-Reference A said that she reached out to the breeder and that the breeder gave her lots of advice and support about her pup since the time of adoption.
-All adopters were required to sign a contract at the time of adoption. The contract stated that if the adopter was not able to take care of the pup at any time during the pup's life that they would return the pup back to the breeder.

CONS:
-She used to breed lhasa-apsos. However all the lhasa-apsos are now retired. Her boyfriend/fiance/now husband breeds pugs. It seems like she focuses on her yorkie pups/parents and her husband focuses on the pugs/parents.
-Reference A told me that since the breeder lives in an area where hawks/eagles are very common, she didn't let the pups outside much, so the pup that Reference A had was confused with grass the first couple of days, but later got over it.
-Reference C told me that her pup had an umbilical hernia that was fixed at the time of spaying/neutering, and that the breeder took the cost for the surgery off of the purchase price. Reference C told me that she was pretty sure that the umbilical hernia was developed from the mom being too rough with the pup. The mom of her pup is now retired, however.
-The pups DID get sick about a month ago, but she was very honest to me about the situation. She stated that the puppies drank from a black plumber's hose from the water well and that the hose got super warm and probably had some bacteria in it. Her husband also had gotten sick from that. The puppies had diarrhea but she gave them medication and gave them Coccidia and Giardia medicine just in case and their stools went back to normal. She said that they responded very well to the Corid. She said that the pups weren't lethargic while being sick and it didn't affect their playing or eating or drinking and that they had no fever, and that they are now completely healthy and checked out by her vet.
-She did admit to me that she doesn't do any health clearance testing. She said that she would like to but just haven't yet. She told me that so far there haven't been any genetic or health issues with her pups/parents and that the only thing that she can guarantee is that her pups are healthy when they leave her house and that there are no genetic issues that she is aware of. She did invite me to post on her Facebook page to ask if any of her previous buyers have had any genetic or health clearance issues. She mentioned to me that one of her past buyer's pups had been hit by a car (after being adopted) and that the pup needed surgery and that she offered to help raise the funds. Another pup needed hernia surgery and they helped pay for half. She said that if anything happened to the pup she would do her best she could to help with the funds, and that if something happened to the pup she would offer a replacement pup or a refund.

NOT SURE ABOUT/QUESTIONS:
-The sire's lines on pedigreedatabase.com have lines from Koedam's, Ju-Lyn's, and Schroeder's.
-The dam is 7 pounds and the sire is 4 pounds.
-Predicted weight for their pups ranged from 4-5 pounds though on average.
-Pups are AKC Conditional only.
-Parents/pups are fed Royal Canin.

Umblical hernias are genetic and inherited - so yes she has a genetic defect in the line(s) she breeds. I am not sure where the pet owner got the idea the Mom was too rough with the puppy?


How-ever baring that and the above comment was from a pet owner, she seems to be doing a whole lot of things right.
But not how-ever health testing. And that quite simply I don't agree with.


It is up to you to determine how important it is to you health testing is.

She sounds like a lovely person, but as a breeder, there is not enough information. Why is she breeding, just to provide more pets? We have so many pets available, and in my opinion, the only reason to be breeding is because you want to better the breed. You think you have something to offer the breed, and you think you have the knowledge to breed a better and healthier dog. In order to do this, you must be super aware of breed standard, and only breed those dogs that conform to that. The best way to find out if they conform is to belong to breed clubs and be involved in showing. At the very least a breeder should be thoroughly educated in all Yorkie illnesses and have her breeding dogs checked thoroughly for genetic problems. My guess is she’s breeding her pets, and this is a big no no. Good breeders love their breeding dogs, but understand why it’s important to treat them more like working dogs and not pets, it could mean the difference between life and death, when it’s time to whelp. I believe every buyer should try to find the best breeder they can find and one whose doing it for the right reason, not to make a little extra money, nor simply to provide pets.

I do think some of the cons are pros, for example, she doesn't let her dogs play outside because they have hawks, most pups you'll have to train to like grass, at first they don't like the feel of it. I also don't think just because she use to breed lhasa-apsos that that would be a bad thing. Many breeders started with one breed and fell in love with another, but if she's switched just because Yorkies are easier to sell, then that would be a bad reason. Two of the Pros aren't really pros, they are probably done by many to persuade people that they are indeed a good breeder, but they are meaningless. For example these two:

She requires all potential adopters to fill out an adoption application.
-She posts tons of tips/advice on her FB page about deworming, etc..


I do like that she's willing to take the pup back if you can't take care of it, I wonder if she's ever taken any back. Also, as far as the questions that you were uncertain of, "AKC Conditional only" I think that means limited registration and that means she won't be selling breeding rights. This is definitely a sign about someone who might care for the breed, however, some say that but if you offer them more money, they will sell the breeding rights. A good breeder doesn't sell breeding rights.

Do you live close enough to her to check out the breeding conditions of the dogs, if not, look elsewhere please.

Without using a name it's very hard for people to give you a full or true review. There are some people who could know or have heard things from past owners or are just extremely good at doing research. There are also certain words or wording that could set off some read flags when looking at her page. No health testing would make me walk away. Her saying there is not genetic issues having known about the umbilical hernia would also make me walk away because one she either dosent know enough about it to know it's genetic and all good breeders should know that or two she just brushed it off as no big deal which she could possibly do with any other thing small or large or third she could have just lied but who knows. Either way I would not be comfortable buying from her.

Sounds like a good, responsible breeder to me, provided "conditional" AKC registration means "limited" AKC registration with spay/neuter contract. Many of us are still trying to figure out just how helpful some of these so-called health clearances are and opt to work closely with trusted veterinarians and knowledge of our lines to make sound breeding decisions. Some of us also are very interested in improving the breed but are realistic enough to know we need to sell puppies to pay for the process.
Yes, I do have show champions of my own breeding, one finished just 2 weeks ago.:)

Hi magicgenie--since you a breeder yourself, do you find any red flags in the Cons section of my original post that are particularly worrisome/should be concerned about?

Thanks for providing me some excellent input, Nancy. I emailed her additional questions about her breeding program, why she breeds, etc.,

On her website, she states that her prices are firm as she believes that pups are not gardening tools that can be bid over. She also states that her pups do not NEED to be sold and that she is happy keeping them if they do not get sold.

Thanks for the input. I emailed her asking about the umbilical hernia. She's been extremely honest and upfront with me so far so hopefully she gives me a very honest answer. I will let you know what she says!

I asked her (the pet owner/reference) if her vet said that the umbilical hernia was genetic or developed and she said: "It is caused by the mother being too rough. I'm pretty sure." , so I emailed her for more information regarding that.

I think that if I do end up purchasing from her I will be 100% buying pet insurance just in case anything comes up.

Pet insurance is great for money but watching a dog suffer from a serious genetic illness or defect and or suffering from the surgery from a genetic illness or defect can be pretty horrible.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. I will wait for the breeder's reply and the reference people's replies and see what they say--then make my best judgment. The main worry for me is is no health testing/health clearance issue. But so far I like the breeder, the parents, and the pup so it's sort of a hard decision.

I see no red flags at all. I believe she gave you references that checked out OK. If an internet search on her name comes up clean you can't do much more to verify her credibility. Good luck. :)

Even veterinarians aren't too impressed with the so-called health clearances, so don't put too much weight on that. A breeder's reputation is a heck of a lot more telling. Health testing---dogs with great knees are still producing pups with luxating patellas, and vice versa. Knees can be great one year and bad the next. HIPS--Legge Perthes shows up out of parents with perfect hips. Since it's polygenic we don't know the mode of inheritance. EYES--How often are we supposed to repeat that test? How often does PRA show up in Yorkies anyway? What test predicts liver shunt?
If breeders really wanted to do the right thing, there would be a data bank where we could report and track health issues. I keep such a data base for my own breeding, and would galdly submit the information to a central place that could track these things across generations of pedigree.:)

For the umbilical hernia:

The breeder said that it was caused by mom pulling too much on the cord at birth. She says she knows that a pup will have the hernia if she notices that mom getting to close to the pup's belly. She stated that if the pup had a hernia than she tells the prospective buyer ahead of time and lets them know. She doesn't like to do the surgery prior to adoption since the pups are so young and that she would like them to get bigger before the surgery. She said that for the pup that had the hernia, she called the local vets in the buyer's area to get an overall price estimate and took that amount off of the cost of the pup.

For the reasons to breed part:

She said that she and her husband have always loved dogs. Her mother-in-law was a breeder so her husband was used to being in the proximity. She said that before she did not have much knowledge about dogs and mating except for her experiences as a kid and her yorkie and her husband's pug ended up mating. She then said that after she found out, she started doing tons of research, reading articles and books, watching videos, and learning about whelping to get ready for the pups. After the pups were whelped, she told me that she liked being a breeder, the pups, doing all the research, how the AKC worked and then decided to become a breeder full-time and studied and learned everything she possibly could about breeding. She says that she is still continuing to take classes and just completed her General Veterinary class and that she is hoping to take a Fecal Flotation class in the future. She says that she hopes to become a vet one day and that currently she is studying/reading vet tech books and researching on coat and color genetics. She also says that she has a friend that is a vet tech and that they often get together to swap knowledge and talk about yorkies.

For the registration:

She said that it was Conditional and Limited and that the pups would be pet only. No breeding.

Eyes the answer can be found on CERF - they recommend annually. if I am breeding that year I do, if not I do every 2 years. I do the first one at one year old. Don't know the rate as many breeders are not sending in the results to CHIC


Leggs Perthes often shows up anywhere from 7-12 months old - Again not mainly are doing PennHip and or OFFA. So again the database for Yorkies is very small.


In my mind the strongest argument for health screenings is to create a whole database of knowledge, knowledge that we are losing, as more and more long time oldies are retiring, and some are dying way before their time. Not much longer can we rely on word of mouth about this line or that line having this or that disease in it. The knowledge even 20yrs ago was spotty at best; for truly how many breeders actively pursue their puppy buyers for annual or even every two year health updates on their puppies? Some do yes - but it is not a requirement to be in good standing with the YTCA and or the CYTC.


And yes we all desperately need the actual genetic tests for LS, HD, LP, ED, Pra for Yorkies etc.


And I too have heard frequently about how usefull are these anyhow? Oh it is just a scam for vets and lab companies to make more money.


I was so glad that I insisted on the one genetic test we have for BRT;s before I commited to my show gal; I had the two show females tested, one came back clear, and one Affected!!! And I was reassured that both sire and dam were clear. There is no way through this mating could result in an affected pup if both were clear..... As I could not find the genetic test results for both parents listed, I insisted and did pay for the test on both gals. Can you imagine importing a gal from Russia only to find out later she was affected???......


So that genetic test was worth to me way more than the $150 I paid for it to be done.


We have databanks for many things already. HD ED PRA Cataracts Thyroid Heart Hearing.


The other thing is, we do need to be carefull and screen what our puppy buyers tell us about the health of their dogs. If they say their dog has a heart murmur, well has the specialist ddx it, and if so what is the grade and type of heart murmur? Allergeries how was it ddx'd - allergeric to what? Their hips are bad.... again a specialist needs to ddx HD or Leggs Perthes not a general vet. And the examples go on and on and on.

If you go back in the lines of the dogs that have had puppies with LP or any other genetic illness I would think you would find a relative with it.

Most of what I read says most of umbilical hernias are genetic but there are a few that are not. I would think the breeder though would be there to see mom was being to rough and stop it but that's just my opinion. In the end it just comes down to what you are comfortable with. I imagine that truly 100% perfect breeders might not exist or if they do are very hard to find. Good luck with your decision.

umbilical hernias
 

I have them show up every once in a while here. They are easy to repair and I haven't noticed a pattern to when they appear, so not convinced they are genetic. Frankly, I've been inclined to think they were more related to how the cord was severed and/or tied off at birth. I have no medical knowledge other than what I've acquired through breeding, so am open to the hows and whys umbilical hernias appear. I wouldn't fault a breeder for one.

As for the health testing, I'm very open to information about that and don't wish to argue for or against. As previously stated, I'm examining the advantages. Certainly there are no disadvantantages other than cost. It may be mroe accurate for me to say I'm still weighing cost vs benefit. I consider myself quite a good, responsible breeder trying to improve the breed without having to price puppies out of the reach of all but the wealthiest 1%.

It's turning out to be quite a mild day here, in the Great North Woods of NH where we're preparing for the long isolation of winter.:)

Regarding the conditions that are usually checked for by the health clearances (hip, knees, etc.,): what are they, and what age do they usually start to appear?

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/die...p-10-list.html


This link to the Stickey in the Health library should answer a lot of your questions.


Timing is variable per condition and the severity of the condition:


Leggs Perthes 7+-12 months old


HD - if mild can go undecteted for years. More severe grades of HD will probably start to show themselves at 1yr+


ED - same as above


LP - you can tell as early as eight wks old, if the patella clicks. Some pups as they mature can right themselves from what is called loose knees - but by 3mths old you can tell more.


PRA and or cataracts - can be evidenced as early as 6mths to a year, and some not until 5-6 yrs old.


LS - Bat testing can give you an idea of the health of their liver - do at 16 wks old and repeat at 6mths old. In severe cases onset of symptoms can be as early as 4mths old or as late as 4-5 yrs old in very mild cases.


AAI - is pretty variable. Depends on the severity. Often times can go un-diagnosed for several years.


Please note there are no Genetic tests for these diseases. Health screenings prior to breeding is the most a breeder can do. \\

I went back in her Breeder's FB page history and I saw that she first started to mate her male with two of her females sort of young....the male was 15 months and the two females were 12 months and 11 months (this was back at around mid-October 2013). I think this is pretty young so I now have more reservations....
If I'm doing my calculations correct, the male should be 27 months old now (2 years 3 months) and both females should be about 24 months old now (2 years). From looking at what gemy posted, it looks like Leggs Perthes and LP should have shown up by now but it's not a guarantee.
So so far, both females have had litters in Dec 2013 and July 2014.

The price she was asking for the pup was $800, which is pretty reasonable, but money shouldn't be the deciding factor. The pup's health is all that I care about...

Here is what I found regarding the male's pedigree posted on pedigreedatabase.com----https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/yorkshire_terrier/dog.html?id=1993711-charlie-browns-lil-patch-o-punkin

Do these seem like good lines? I see some are registered with ACA/APRI which isn't that reliable...

It really doesn't matter if the pup has someone, usually a grandpa, from good lines, it matters who that dog is bred with and so on and so on. A breeder needs to know how to breed out faults, but most byb's breed in faults. You are correct, APRI and ACA are very bad, and were started because many commercial breeders got kicked out of the AKC. Dogs registered with them have puppymills in their background.

True, true. I think I may just have to stay away and avoid this breeder.

Thanks for all the opinions, ladies! It really helped a LOT.

The age is a little disappointing. If bred at one year the female was to young and I guessing it was probably her first heat which is also a big no no. The parents can be free of LP but say the grandparents had it then the pup could end up with it to.

That would make me walk away right there because even a coffee table can be registered as a dog with those registrys. I know the AKC has it's issues but most of the time your going to get a pure breed with that registry and with the others more then likely your not.

Well she has stated she does not health test, so you can't check to see what the results are through the health databases.


Mating a female that young well it is definitely frowned about by most responsible breeders be they members of a National Club or not.


Mating a male at 15months old of course is a tad different, how-ever again you can not do the complete health screenings at 15mths old.


I don't know the pricing of pure-bred AKC Yorkies where you live, but $800 is certainly not cheap for a pup, from parents that are not health tested, nor championed, whose lineage seems to reflect poor registries.


In my two clubs, we don't allow our females to be bred until the second heat or 18months old which-ever is longer. She stated she studied up on more than just the basics of breeding, then why did she breed her two females so young. That is a rhetorical question as I see that you have decided to pass on this puppy from this breeder.


It is certainly the decision I would make as well.

Yes--as soon as I saw how young the females were, I did some digging through some old YT threads and realized that it was extremely young. I also thought it was kind of odd that since she did so much research, she did not want to health clearance her yorkies. On top of that, her yorkies come from not so great lines.

I would rather be safe than sorry, so that is why I have decided to pass on this breeder.

Good pass---
 

Now you've found the red flags. The girls were bred much too young and APRI and CKC (Continental Kennel Club) are nothing to brag about on a pedigree.

I am now 100% sure I made the right call in deciding not to purchase a pup from her... Apparently the breeder was not happy with me asking too many questions and apparently contacting one of her FB friends who stated publicly that they had long-time babies from her (I friended them and they accepted so I thought it was f) without her "permission". One of them didn't have a problem with it and was 100% fine with it, but I guess the other one did not and decided to contact her. The one that was not fine with it did not give me any indication that she was not comfortable with the situation and decided to contact her (the breeder) instead of me about the situation. I contacted the few people that I asked questions to and formally apologized and they all said that it was fine and that I needed to ask those questions and that they understood me asking them.

The next thing that happens is that the breeder posts publicly on her Facebook page accusing me of being rude and judgmental and telling everyone to block me. This was before she contacted me so she was assuming all of these things. She then confronts me via FB Messages about the situation, calling me rude and judgmental, etc., so I went ahead and copy pasted all the conversations that I had with with the references that she gave me. I also told her my doubts about her and the red flags that I saw and she continued to defend herself multiple times with "not-so-great comebacks". It got tiring so I blocked both her and her FB page.

Needless to say she was not very professional. I am not including her name in here to avoid any future lawsuits in case she stumbles upon this thread so she will remain "Anonymous" but this is the first time I have encountered such a disappointing and unprofessional breeder of this caliber.

Thank you for taking the time to read this short little rant. I think I'll stick with breeders highly recommended by YTers or YTCA yorkie breeders from now on. I need to take a break from the computer and simmer for a little while. :/