Now, this is from a completely different breed...English Bulldogs but they scheduled her c-section. She never went through any labor...long story short, 9 puppies and they brought home 3. That night, the mom managed to get the girl through the cage and she ate every bit of her. Nothing was left but blood...mom didn't know they were her pups. Very sad.

OK.. Now I feel like an A&#! That is horrible but it's a fact. Some can react totally the opposite than a loving mother. Even if they free whelp, some are just, well, lousey moms. That is so sad though about that puppy.

I've heard this too. Puppy is too large, dead, and stuck in the birth canal. Something breeders don't like to talk about.

Yes! This is what I read....

So... that would seem to logically suggest that "planned c-sections" where they are not allowed to go into labor would not be good necessarily?

sections
 

This is an interesting discussion...it is so hard to tell someone how to breed. When I had a new breeder I was mentoring, I insisted on being with them for as many whelpings as I could, until they felt comfortable to try it alone. It is very difficult to know when there is trouble and when there is plenty of time....I just get a gut feeling.

From the time of the start of labor to the first water sac appearance can vary so much depending on the intensity of the contractions. If the bitch is just starting, digging, walking around, lays down pushes a bit, then stops, digs, walks etc..I do not call this serious labor.
I used to tell friends not to call me until the "heavers" appear. Those are the strong contactions that should not go more then 30/60 mins..but here again it depends on many factors..dam size, number of pups, first litter or repeat..that has so much to do with it. Mild labor should produce a water bubble in 30 mins..no sac in an hour, then I want a check and a shot.
Two hours and no pup, I want a section. after giving a shot of Oxy and there is no pup in 30 mins, I will give another, then in 30 mins I want a section.

I give a bitch two chances...but the problem with sections is adhesions. They can cause so many problems in the future. RiniW and I know a friend who lost a girl last year due to adhesions that prevented a second whelping..no way of knowing before..the adhesions blocked the birth canal.

Free-whelping is when the breeder does nothing, but watch. When a bitch needs help, I call it assisted free-whelping.LOL

As to spaying after a section..I have always done it that way with no problems to the dam as to accept pups..BUT not everyone is so lucky. For one thing my virgin bitches spend lots of time with puppies..they see the other girls taking care of puppies and they want to mother them also...so I let them visit the whelping box when mom goes out to potty for a few minutes. Most have to be dragged out...they lay down and play mom...so I never have to encourage anyoen to be a mother.

I have pulled pups out, broken their necks and legs doing so...I had no option. ..That is one reason I stopped breeding the winter..a couple snow storms prevented me from getting to the vet, once all teh electric went out everywhere for 8 hrs...plus, the vet was unable to get out also..he told me to do whatever I had to do to get it out, so I did. My bitches are treasures to me, they never made a sound, they knew I was doing all I could and they trust me.
A breeder must establish a strong "leader of the Pack" imagine..dogs relax when the leader is there, taking charge with no panic.

Kim no it does not imply to plan ahead, quite the opposite, the mom should begin her prelabor stage ...when at all possible. Some cases where the vet has predetermined free whelping could be a risk, progesterone levels should be checked daily once it has dopped to a certain level (ready to whelp) then she should be left in the hands of the vet IMHO. I thank god I've never had to experience a c-section, but I will say if I felt there was any reason to preschedule, I wouldnt hesitate, the vet needs to be on the same page as the breeder to make it all work!

"Even though you know she will be surgically delivered, she should be allowed to progress far enough into labor wherein she will concentrate on licking her nipples and vulva (and everything else within reach) and ideally, her water should break. She will then become quite serious about licking and arranging her bed so that even with the interruption of a trip straight into surgery, she will be much more likely to take up where she left off upon returning home and regaining her wits. The pre-delivery licking is tremendously important as it coincides with hormonal release and lays an important foundation for the bonding behavior between mother and whelp. The first time dam who is trotted off to surgery without benefit of the nesting, licking, cleaning behavior is one who will likely never develop good mothering skills. She is more apt to reject or be frightened by those odd squirmy little things she awakens to find in her bed."

Kim I read your post wrong and yes the article does suggest prelabor is better than a planned c-section! I would agree, when at all possible.

No problem.

section
 

The riskiest section is a planned one BEFORE labor has begun.

Thanks for emphasisizing on that Pat.

And I didn't even think about what I would do if the power went out or somethign like that. My vet's only 2 streets away, so weather won't stop me. But you never can be too prepared. I'll have to think about an emergency whelp plan and kit. Maybe even talk to my vet about it. Hmm...thanks for that reminder and your honesty in your posting.

Love ya girl!
:hug:

Adhesions..
 

I just wanted to add that Adhesions can be avoided IF! And that's a big IF the vet is experience. My vet does a wonderful job the scar is so slight if one at all. I will be up front to say, I am not going to put a limit on my bitches as to how many sections before spay. I will be careful and discuss with my vet. Each bitch and birth is different and I will treat the as such.

As a side, thanks to all who have posted. The information and insight is just SCREAMING out of this post, it's not getting lost if we have debates or differences of opinions. Now this is what I'm talking about!!!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup:

Irene,
I have read that hard labor can go on for hrs. before a puppy even appears, and I have not even delivered my first litter yet, so I can't really talk, but this is an article that was sent to me in order to become more knowledgeable about breeding. Nothing meant by it, just good info I thought.
Hugs.., Karin

http://www.thedogplace.com/library/rx.htm

Pat my vet says that if adhesions are present they would be seen in an xray is this not true?

Sorry, but in my opinion, that is very cruel to do this over and over again. :(

This is an interesting topic...

I personally would want mine to have a natural labor if at all possilbe. One of the reasons we induced Courtney this past Nov. instead of having a c-sec even though she was way over due was because of my feelings towards them. I don\'t think they should be done unless absolutely needed. I think someone asked me a while back, why didn\'t you just have a c-sec with her? Because I think natural delivery is so much better and if it can be done safely, then mom is much happier in the long run, no wound to heal, and no scar tissue. There\'s many other reasons that have already been discussed here, but those are my basic ones.