New USDA breeding regulations
 

So it looks like we won't be able to use the usda list as a guide to puppy mills anymore. :confused:

That will appear to be the case! And let confusion reign!

Thank you for posting this.

that is good to know// I appreciate all the info I can get because Morgan is getting a brother next year and I want to do it right

The AKC is against this because anybody with more than four females capable of nreeding who sell even one puppy without new owner physically seeing it will have to follow certain rules. This includes home based breedrs (like those on YT) that will be required to follow exacting kennel standards (meaning it will be difficult to allow these breeding dogs to live in their homes).

Wow...that really sucks!!

It seems like every breeder is now going to have to get a USDA licence. I'm sorry, but I hardly think that having 4 breeding females makes someone a "commercial" breeder!!

I am just not sure how these new rules are going to help anyone. IMO, if they are going to do something like this...they need to have different rules and regulations that apply to different kennel sizes and possibly different breeds as well....and it would be helpful if we, as buyers were able to tell "how commercial" the kennel is. Obviously, someone with 200 dogs is going to have different "needs" than someone who has "4 dogs" anyways...so trying to lump them all in one category seems crazy to me.

I wonder what the impact will be like on the smaller breeders. I wonder if it will end up putting a lot of the smaller kennels out of business because of the changes they would have to make to be in compliance with the USDA?!? It would be a very sad day if/when our only choice would be to purchase a dog from some huge puppy mill corporation:(

I am interested to hear from some of our breeders on here and what their perspective is on these new regulations. How and in what ways do you think this will impact your kennels??

And I have to go through this law with a fine tooth comb. What happens if I want to ship a dog into the states from Canada, and have sold the dog sight un-seen over the internet?

I think the AKC does a good summation of many of the points we small hobby breeders and especially those of us with Rare Breeds have.

When you only have a couple of dozen breeders in all of the country, how can you expect folks to come to your home?

Very discouraging.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::(:(

WEll Breeders LET US Start a new Business.

That of Power of Attorney to examine a pup. WE sell our services to would be buyers who assign their DUTY to SEE the PUP at the BREEDERS home, and for a fee, we go over. We examine, we talk, we take pics, and then we send onto our client, examination done, everything fine. I as your proxy have looked at the pup!

So now I as the breeder am not selling "sight" un-seen.

Or how about we breeders all set up webcams in our home, and for a fee, allow a prospective buyer to see the puppy insitu?

Look the good ones are small scale breeders, and you need at least four active breeding females.... But you want to keep your retired females. If zoning laws and your land and house and size of your dogs permits, maybe you will have 6 females on hand.

So you have an inspection; do you have to PROVE only 4 females are breeding/ What happens when you keep a female puppy for 6mths or so to see if she is breed worthy; then bump you are over the limit.

This law is so asinine I am speechless..

And where will the enforcement funds come from?

Somewhere today while going through the voluminous literature on this subject, I came across something that indicates a buyer cannot hire a professional to act on their behalf. They can appoint a friend, relative or other unpaid person to examine the pup on their behalf, but not a paid one. I have to go looking for where I saw that.
I have been able to ascertain that the way I sometimes deal with my clients is OK in the new regulations. Being in a remote place, I often drive to my puppy clients' homes or meet them somewhere to do the transfer, and that seems OK. They relaxed the part of the rule that said the pruchase had to take place at the breeder's property. Of course, this does not help in the least with the dogs I routinely purchase and have shipped to me...Then again, those are breeding dogs that may be exempted under a different paragraph.

While I have never approved of people buying sight unseen from unknown, reputation unverified, breeders on the internet, I don't think we needed new federal regulations to protect the careless people who would do so. This regulation gives so-called authorities too much leeway to come calling and abuse their misbegotten powers. :mad:

Again, in today's readings I came across something that says the inspector will decide case by case which are breeding females. There's too much leeway here for petty tyrants to to decide a 6 month old prospect or 9 year old retired unspayed female is a breeding female.
The truly scary part is enforcement. Will HSUS, ASPCA, local breeder-hating ACO be deputized to do these inspections? Some of those buggers showed up at my door one day to investigate an anonymous, crank, complaint, and my life is forever changed by it. I didn't lose my dogs due to the fact they and my home were in marvelous condition and I was able to get immediate high-powered help on the scene. Sometimes help isn't available in such an immediate way. Once your dogs get confiscated over a technicality, they're gone forever. Being cleared in the courts later won't get youback your dogs.
Yeah, this is stressful. I'm in dogs and totally committed to them, but I wouldn't take up this hobby as a beginner in today's legal environment.

They have us by the short hairs, Gail....they have already thought of every out we could possibly come up with, in our effort to keep providing well bred, healthy pups, from breeders people can TRUST to be there when they need them. We cant keep them in the house, they need to be housed in specified cages with runs....it even states you can convert an extra room into a place for your dogs...I only have 4 breeding females, but that will be changed down to 2, then none in the upcoming years........now, the BYB's, that are throwing questionable dogs together, and then dumping them to unsuspecting, uneducated buyers, at flea markets and out of the back of their cars on the roadside, garage sales, or grocery store parking lots, they will continue to do just fine....they dont advertise, they dont spend a ton of money on websites or any of the other expenses that ensure these babies will live long healthy lives, they dump them at 6-8 weeks, their "ooops" ties, before vaccinations and well baby checks....no overhead, minimal expenses, probably NOT registerable.....no paper trails......and they are gone....owners are on their own.....this tears the sheet for me....it is no longer worth the effort or expense to continue what I have done with all the love in my heart and soul I possess....it never was a money making production for me...like my brother tried to console me with, "Think of the money you will save! Think of all the things you can do, and all the places you can go, anytime you want to! This is a blessing in disguise for you, sis...this passion of yours has you nailed to the house, 24/7....and you dont even make ends meet! It takes your additional income to support this business..... Move on, keep some of your own babies so you will have healthy babies to fool with and love, and let it go.....you can still have dogs, just not breeding them....all the fun and love of dogs and none of the expense and worry." He is making sense to me......I could not handle the HSUS, SPCA, and local yokel gestapo banging on my door, invading my home, confiscating my dogs, leaving me with nothing by a broken heart and huge fines for non compliance....I am done with this! 2013 will be the final act for Rosehill Yorkies.

I hope you don't mean this Judy? Will this really cause you to cease breeding? I wonder who will be left besides puppymills and byb's?

I was so saddened to read about this law passing, and I remember our discussion about this when it was being proposed. I am even sadder after reading your post. This whole thing is really scary, but please don't let them take away your dreams.

I would hate to see good breeders giving it up because of these new regulations. The greeders won't care because they don't follow any regulations to begin with.

Judy I am so sorry to hear that. Truly sorry. But don't despair just yet. Where there is a will there is a way.

I know our BRT club in the USA will be looking at this very very closely. One key is to make sure that there is no linkage between under 4 breeding females, and even one sale over the internet. By that I mean, if you have 2 or 3 breeding females, you are essentially exempt from all following regulations as you do not meet their criteria. Also remember it has been yet to be tested in any court cases.

Not a breeder, but it would seem to me that a buyer could just fly in to P/U their pup (about the same cost as shipping right?) then it wouldn't be "sight unseen". I don't know all the details from a breeders perspective. As a potential buyer, I always wondered why anyone would pay $300-$350 to have a pup shipped when they could pay a bit more & get to meet the pup parents & breeder. I know that I would feel better flying with my new pup for a little more rather than letting them fly with a courier or alone:eek:!!

If you have four or fewer breeding females you are exempt and still allowed to ship puppies.

It also hasn't passed yet. There is 60 days before that happens.

If everyone was kind, thoughtful, considerate, honest, and not greedy, we wouldn’t need laws, but unfortunately they are not and we need laws to protect those who can’t protect themselves. Laws always have some impact on the rest of us, but we have to weigh and balance the good vs. the bad that they will do. I really don’t understand why so many of you breeders are against this law, it’s like you don’t believe that there are some really horrendous puppy mills out there and for some reason you think this USDA would come marching into your house, believe me, they will be busy enough with the large inhumane puppy mills and there are no laws to affect them. You all say, we have enough laws, but there are NO laws that cover breeders who sell directly to the public. The USDA list should never have been used as a “guide to puppy mills”, it was only a guide to commercial breeders but the worst puppy mills weren’t even registered with the USDA.


I’m really confused the breeders here are so against this law, most good breeders want to meet the prospective buyer in person and don’t mind if the buyer wants to inspect the breeding conditions or “kennels.” This law only applies to you if you meet TWO conditions, one you have over four breeding females, and two if you sell you dogs sight unseen. For those breeders who don’t want buyers in their home, you can even meet at another location, but I would discourage buyers form buying from this type of breeder, since the whole purpose is to make sure you’re not buying from a breeder who keeps the dogs in inhumane conditions. If you want more than four female breeding dogs, meet the buyers in person. I really think some of you have blown the impact of this law on your breeding programs way out of proportion. Basically, the buyer must see the dog before purchase, how is this so bad?

Really? How much does a flight cost from oh let us say Oregon, to Newfoundland Canada. Just a mere 8000 miles or so. I believe it would be way more than $500.

Plus some breeds even at eight weeks old are too large to go in cabin, and still must be flown cargo.

I don't think the USDA has any impact on Canadians. This is for US breeders.

I hope you don't make any changes, you are allowing the propaganda put out by commercial breeders to effect you decisions. Commercial breeders don't want this law to pass, it will impact them, and so they put out a lot of misinformation to scare small breeders to death. If you only have four breeding females the law doesn't effect you, you can still sell sight unseen, but I hope you don't, I encourage all breeders to meet the buyers in person.

Why do you think you need to keep your dogs in a separate location, where do you read this?

Breeding
 

I have bred yorkies for 20+ years but this may well be the last straw for me too. It is enough for me to make sure I am in compliance with AKC and be
prepared for an inspection. I have only had one inspection but it went well.
I don't want to put my dogs outside in a kennel either. My puppies are aways very social and loving and that usually makes an impression on buyers but if one is raised in a kennel, you can forget that. With mine being in the house, my husband or I am always picking one up and cuddling with it but if they are outside they won't have nearly the contact. That is not the reason I started breeding. I think everyone who breeds knows that it is not a money making proposition. Also, I have four breeding females; however I have five older females. Three are spayed and two are not. I also have two female puppies that I have held onto but I think they will go too. It really takes the wind out of your sails if you are a small breeder who does well to break even and keep your dogs healthy. I can't see anything good coming from this. In my area we have few yorkie breeders left anyway due to the economy, so this is going to limit choices for getting a puppy to the Humane Society or a couple of pet stores.

The law doesn't apply to you, if you had MORE than four AND sold the dogs to people over the internet, then the law would apply to you and you would have to register. You say you can see nothing good coming from this, do you realize that over 80% of the dogs sold now aren't registered with anyone and have no inspections? The laws were made before the internet and no one ever thought there were be so many dogs sold without anyone seeing the breeding conditions.

While people say, "The law does not apply to you", you could not be more wrong!.....you ARE subject to inspection by these people and THEY do have the authority to confiscate your dogs....you may CLAIM, you may swear, you may promise, you only have 4 breeding females, but it is going to be up to these people to determine if that is true! If they are intact, they are capable of breeding and that is all some jerk needs to shut you down. Selling puppies sight unseen is such a very small, insignificant part of this stupid restriction, it is the regulations that dictate exactly what specifications your detached kennel must be built to, in order to be in compliance. If they have to, they will make rules and regulations that dictate you spend thousands and thousands of dollars in structure design, licenses, etc, in order to comply..... It CLEARLY states in the pages and pages of regulations, that you can NOT use any room in your home to house your dogs. So, while we do not have more than 4 breeding females, they will be coming to inspect you, tramping through your home and all rooms, to be sure you do not. The ONLY people this will not affect, are the irresponsible breeders that breed a couple of dogs, then sell them from signs hanging on fence posts, or at flea markets, or from index cards hanging in local grocery stores .....the "gestapo" do not know THEY exist, because they do not have web sites, they do not advertise, they just go about their nasty little breeding practices, under the radar of the people that "claim" they are "trying to remove and irradicate all the horrific breeders out there". "Unintential consequences" and "collateral damage" is alot more easily accepted when the main objective of the rule and/or regulation is actually corrected......unfortunately, and of course it will be too late by then, too many legitimate, concerned, responsible, loving, law abiding breeders are going to be wiped out by this......and "the designers of this legislation" have already got that magic number of "four breeding females" on the chopping block over the next couple of years.....several years ago, it started out at 12 breeding females, then dropped to 7, now it is down to 4..... So, it isnt the "utopian idea" that you can get rid of puppy mills and BYB's by regulations and legislation that we breeders find so intrusive and offensive....it is the fact that we are subject to have officials, "appointed" by God only knows who, to come onto our property and tramp through our homes, determining if every intact female we have on our property is indeed a breeding female. I have intact females that have NEVER been used as breeders, but these "officials" are the ones with the clip board and the "right" to levy huge fines on me and take my dogs away. Unless you actually breed, you can not even imagine the adverse impact this is going to have on people that have done nothing wrong......just trying to keep our beloved breed looking like Yorkies are supposed to look, act like Yorkies are supposed to act, continue to be Yorkies as set forth by the breed standard,,,,,no "oops" breedings, but carefully planned pairings of breeding dogs with a clear working knowledge of pedigrees and what is going to provide healthy beautiful Yorkies for those that desire to own one.

I'm sorry I really don't believe this, I think this is the sort of propaganda posted to scare the small breeders to death. I've seen this happen before where commercial breeders fought tooth and nail to get laws from being passed, and predicted all sorts of crazy things if the laws passed, but it just didn't happen, I thought after the last time we would no be having this type of arguments again, but it's happening. If you're registered with the AKC they already have the right to inspect the kennel conditions and your records, the USDA doesn't usually even inspect registered kennels if they know they are AKC registered, because AKC standards are higher. I'm truly sorry this law is causing you so much stress, I really appreciate concerns, I just don't believe it will happen. Again, the housing applies to breeders who have more than 4 breeding females. If this is true, than I really think we should all help fight it.

I too don't understand why anyone would be against this. Granted, I don't understand breeding but there are so many animals out there, why does anyone need more than 4 females? We have such an over population of pets and more people are breeding.

I know people have said that they don't breed to make money that they barely break even but I call bullish*t on that. People breed to SELL puppies. It's gotten out of control. If they limited breeders to one or two litters a year, would we run out of pets? I think not.

I could never be a breeder, I don't understand taking a family member, making them have babies then selling those babies to people you don't know. However, I have seen such a large percentage of badly bred animals and animal shelters full of unwanted animals that I just don't get the *need* for anyone to breed.