Well, I can understand why people would want to breed and we really need good breeders who are doing it right. To have a "serious" breeding program, many breeders say you need at least 5 females, but I'm sure 4 would be plenty for most hobby breeders, especially since many believe in breeding back to back. I don't want laws that punish the small hobby breeder, but I don't think this one does.

Nancy, you wrote AKC's standards are higher than USDA's. But the AKC is not happy with the new regulations.

I thought we all were in favor of small breeders who keep the dogs and pups in their home and not a separate structure/kennel. Four breeding females is not a lot, and I do think the threat of all un-altered dogs in the home being counted is real. I wouldn't be comfortable with AKC registration protecting me from being scrutinized by this regulation. All it would take is one phone call from a disgruntled neighbor or competitor.

I think these new regulations will encourage small breeders to go underground, to be less open.

Truthfully, I've never seen the AKC happy with any legislation, I'm not joking, I've never seen them in favor of any type of legislation that puts any restrictions on breeders, so that's not a good measure for me. I agree with some of the AKC complaints, what exactly is a "breeding female", but I don't think people realize that over 70% of the dogs sold are unregulated. This bill addresses those commercial breeders who sell directly to the public over the internet. In the past, people would have to visit their homes and could see the kennel conditions for themselves, but the internet changed all this. You can still have more than four breeding females, but if you do, you have to allow the buyer to see the dog before the buyer makes the purchase. Again, you wouldn't be regulated, unless you sell the dogs without meeting the buyer and have more than 4 breeding females. Since when do good breeders not want to meet the buyer?

I'm confused about your comment on a disgruntled neighbor, they could call without this legislation. Most of the puppy mills are really rather well hidden, and authorities can't do anything, because there are no laws to cover them. Once this takes place they will have to register and be inspected if they have more than 4 breeding females and sell directly over the internet without meeting the buyers. I also agree with you that a dogs should be kept in the home, not a separate structure, I'm not sure why people think that they will have to have the dogs in a separate structure, I would be against that. Are you saying this is true if a person has under 4 breeding females, because I can't find it in the actual bill.

I am fully on-board with regulating the sale of dogs. I also support seeing the puppy before purchase (although I did put a deposit down on Max before meeting him, and I made a verbal commitment with the same breeder before meeting Teddy in person).

There are circumstances, friends here on YT, who have purchased their puppies from YT member breeders and had them shipped without meeting the puppy or breeder in person. This gives me mixed feelings about requiring meeting the puppy and breeder in person.

The separate structure -- I thought the new regulation is requiring this for breeders with more than 4 breeding females. Don't a lot of hobby and show breeders have more than 4?

The disgruntled neighbor example was in response to your comment that most small, in-home breeders would not be inspected under this new regulation because the authorities would be too busy with much bigger operations. Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement. If I were a small breeder, I would not feel comfortable relying on this. A disgruntled neighbor who might know a thing or two about these regulations and call the authorities to come out for an inspection.

Believe it or not, I am LIVING this nightmare, as are many, many other small breeders. The AKC is NOT the problem...we all keep accurate records and are well known to AKC. (I have even been a federal firearm dealer in the past, and gladly opened my home up to federal ATF agents for inspection, so this is NOT a problem for me.) There are millions of people that think this is all "hogwash" or "propaganda" to scare smal breeders and since these people are actually "on the outside looking in", you really have no clearity on the reality of the situation. It will all come to pass, and THEN the damage that has been delivered will become evident. I would remind all, one of our very own members/breeder has already lived the terror of having her home essentially invaded by out of control "authorities", hell bent on confiscating her dogs and trying to close her down. Try to convence HER this law is all "scare tactics" and "propaganda". Thank God she had the financial where-with-all, as well as high powered people in the right places that effectively stopped this mad process mid stride. Thank God she was able to effective re-locate almost immediately, saving her breeding program and keeping her dogs. Others are not as fortunate. It is going to take me a year to relocate to North Texas and build a home with a DETACHED kennel, per specifications....even though I will still have only 4 or less breeding females, I still have other intact females on my property that are NOT breeders, but I will set up like a commercial breeding facility, resume breeding in late 2014, so I will pass regs of USDA. My breeders will no longer be kept in my home, underfoot, sitting on the couch or in the recliner with me, but kept outside in a "commercial" kennel area. NOT "propaganda" or "scare tactics".....FACTS. Or, I guess I could skip all this high dollar expense, and just do like all the other puppy mills/BYB's that are going to get around this legislation totally uneffected....have puppies, register them CKC if at all, because "they" will be tracking breeders thru registeries like AKC, monitoring litters produced and puppies sold.....post the babies in the local flea market, or quietly sell to pet stores, (let the pet stores deal with all the krappy regulations)....and of course, if I dump my puppies at 6-8 weeks of age,.....Here on YT, I am even seeing people buying babies 4 weeks old!!!... I wouldn't have all that "unnecessary" overhead from vet checks, vaccinations, etc....so while I will have to sell the babies cheaper, they wont be such a financial drain on me, and it will be a whole lot cheaper to do it that way, than trying to meet government regulations. Fact is, that is the ONLY way "breeders" make money doing breeding, and all you have to do is observe what is going on all around you, including posts on this forum.....FACTS, not scare tactics or propaganda, just reality. Not really a reality so many responsible, ethical breeders are emotionally or financially capable of dealing with.

Clarification of my question: or does this apply only if the breeder sells without the buyer meeting the puppy in person?

Don't know the breeder you're talking about, but some here aren't exactly small breeders no matter what they tell you. I'm just at a loss on what to say to you, don't you meet your puppy buyers? You can have over four breeding females if you meet the puppy buyers and the buyers see the dog in person before they purchase it.

If you sell directly over the internet and do not meet the buyers in person AND not or, if you have OVER 4 breeding females, you will have to register as a breeder just like the commercial breeders who sell to pet stores have to register. Why do we demand that breeders who sell to pet stores have to be regulated, but not those who sell literally thousands of dogs over the internet need no regulation? For years Yorkietalk has been telling puppy buyers to not buy pets from pet stores, but those dogs actually have better breeding conditions than the dogs who are sold directly over the internet. You've seen the sites, Posh puppies and micro toy dogs, and nothing authorities can do to inspect any of the breeding conditions. I just can't understand why there is this double standard. I would prefer a person buying from a petstore than over the internet. At least they have a tiny idea of what they are getting and those breeding dogs are regulated.

Your first comment about breeders do this strictly for money, is so far off reality, it would be amusing if it was not so dangerou. You have never bred and never would, which is a good thing, because you would very quickly come to that fork in the road, where you would need to decidse if you are breeding for money or to contribute to the production of purebred, quality, healthy, true to breed standard Yorkies. It is either your passion or your job.....puppy mills make it their job, and you are correct, they make money hand over fist. But anyone that has ever done this correctly, for the right reasons, is educated and knowledgable in what it takes to produce healthy dogs that are not laden with genetic issues, etc, that die on new owners at 6 months - 6 years old....bad livers, bad hearts, bad kidneys, bad lungs, bad immune systems, etc. That costs money and if you priced your babies to cover the costs of care and preventative measures taken to ensure your babies are healthy, people couldnt afford to buy them. It is propaganda and scare tactics to tell people that breeders all make money.....bovine scat??? not hardly......some of us just want to provide loving people pup[pies that are healthy and are not going to cost them thousands of dollars, trying to keep a sick puppy alive.....to think people are actually out there thinking we all do this for the sole purpose of selling dogs to make money......bovine scat!

Now I understand.

Personally, I would want to meet the puppy and the breeder in person and ideally meet the breeding pair and see the home where the dogs are bred -- and this is what I would encourage everyone to do.

However, there are circumstances where this is really frustrating. For instance, what if I had wanted Teddy shipped via human courier to me, sight unseen? I had already met the breeder, met the registered breeding pair (same as Max's), and seen her home where the dogs are bred and raised. I believe she had more than 4 breeding females.

I think as long as you didn't actually pay her until you saw the dog, you'd be just fine. So there has to be trust on the part of the breeder for this to happen. Hopefully it will end, some of the bait and switch that's happening, puppy buyer picks a picture and gets a dog that looks nothing like the picture and is also half dead.

I think it is hard for people to see beyond the buying price and understand the overhead costs (when breeding is done right, and when a breeder stands behind her puppies). Breeding done right is a ridiculously hard job with the least amount of return. $

Yes, there is a sadly huge number of homeless animals, and I applaud everyone who rescues and adopts, but I do not support wiping out purebred breeding. That won't stop indiscriminate breeding. I also would not want to see the end of purebred dogs.

Look folks we all can form our own opinions on this law, but unless you have been a breeder, trying to do the whole picture right, this law is awfull.

First how do you "prove" a negative, and yes you betcha anonymous complaints can come in and you WILL get inspected. So you in accordance with all your local bylaws have 6 dogs in your home. All 6 are unspayed, and btw if you are Golden Retreiver breeder., you betcha they should be based on what is becoming overwhelming evidence that the Golden Tumour Dog is quite negatively effected by spaying AT ANY AGE!. Now the Gestapo comes aka Inspectors, without a warrant, because I am dang sure they don't have to go before a judge to get a warrant; and HOW DO YOU PROVE A NEGATIVE? That you are only breeding 2 or 3 of these intact females? What proof exactly is necessary? How do you PROVE a Negative? After all you could be breeding them, and only registering through AKC 2 or 3 of the female litters, and the others through dis-reputable registries. So they make you subject your dog to Xrays and or other invasive techniques to PROVE to them you are not breeding these intact females? Oh and Yes probably at Your Cost!

And they could probably seize your dogs immediately. Do you know how devastating that is for the dogs, that have only ever lived in a home is? How would you feel Nancy if all your dogs were seized by an animal control officer from a nuisance complaint?

The threat felt by us is very very real. Maybe you don't understand it. But we do.

And you actually think I look at the fear mongers/aka commercial breeder comments; not really at all. I look at the law. And I do know APHIS little helpful summary (and let me remind you it is from their point of view), but their little helpful summary has yet to be tested in court as to its' actual accuracy.

Oh, I just wanted to add, if you've ever been to house before, I think that covers it. This bill is an attempt to provide oversight to thousands of breeders who sell over the internet, before the internet, the public provided some oversight by viewing personally the kennels or home conditions.

Sorry, Yorkiemom1--
 

The non-breeding masses won't understand this is a problem until the day comes, in the very near future, that they can't find a nice pure bred dog for a price than can even think of affording. They'll wonder what went wrong when their grandchildren can't have a pet at all and have no idea what a Yorkshire Terrier was.

Sorry Gail, I just don't believe this. This law will not change anything regarding neighbors complaining, they have always had a right to inspect noise complaints and smell complaints, that has nothing to do with the USDA.

Everyone thinks puppy mills are horrible, but nobody wants to help stop the problem. I know of the emails breeders send breeders with the horror stories of this happened to my friend, I don't believe it. Also, if they do try to pass a law that says breeders MUST keep dogs in a separate facility, I'll be right there with all of you fighting it, and I believe most of the pet owners on YT will help fight it too.

I can see Gail's point though. If you are like she said say a Golden breeder who has 4 breeders and 2 retired females who are not spayed (because of the health concerns) Then how on earth are you going to prove that you are not breeding all 6? Would it be fair for them to tell you that you have to get rid of these 2 girls that you raised and love? I am sure we need laws but I think if the usda would just do the job they are suppose to be doing now we would not have so many puppy mills. I called them after we got Laddy about Stills Kennel and they didn't even bother to go check the complaint. I assure you that is definately a Puppy Mill and still up and going after all this time.

If you aren't getting the dogs spayed because of health concerns, I would think a vet could you a pass. I mean you can even get a pass on rabies shots, and IF it really is a health concern, I'll bet you could get a pass on this. Most breeders tell me they spay their females as soon as they are finished breeding them and this is for their health. Again, no law is perfect they always effect the good as well as the bad. Again, the USDA has no power over thousands of commercial breeders because they sell directly to public and over the internet. There are NO laws that cover them, so when you called, they couldn't do anything. Only those commercial breeders who sell to pet stores are covered right now. Without the law, they can't do anything. There are thousands of places such as the one you found, this law will help regulate these places.

Here is a website that gives more information on the new law:

The Retail Pet Store Final Rule and You! | National Animal Interest Alliance

This new law sounds crazy and not well thought out. I can see how it can really effect the breeder/exhibitors.

Many breeder/exhibitors sell and ship puppies sight unseen. Personally I have not and never will ship a puppy.

This part really bothers me:

To me that will just encourage breeders to sell their dogs as breeders and not as pets. It is insane.

If the rule is no more than 4 breeding females then what happens when your females are close to retiring and you want to keep another female for your breeding program? Females ares are not usually bred until they are 18 months to 2 years old so there will be an overlap if someone has only 4 females they are actually breeding and a couple more that are not quite old enough to breed.

I know they do, but they shouldn't. You can still buy a dog at a dog show. I think if they are not of breeding age, they aren't considered breeders. But this still isn't clear and needs to be addressed.

Personally I don't believe a thing National Animal Interest Alliance says, it's run by commercial breeders and they are the ones that put out a lot of the false information. If what you say about breeding dog is true, I agree, it's not right and it sounds like the commercial breeder win again. I wonder how many small breeders tried to help make a good law, it's seems all they did was reject everything, I tried to have a conversation on what was a reasonable number of breeding dogs, no one wanted to talk about it, everyone just thought they had the power to veto the law, I knew it would pass, with or without the help of good breeders. Unfortunately commercial breeders probably have their asses covered more than anyone.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
No "bovine scat"....no scare tactic, no drama, no propaganda.....reality, and to try to explane to people that are not breeders, who have NO idea what breeding correctly actually entails and costs, who can only see what THEY want to see, who believe they know all the answers on how to do something they have never done, is a complete waste of time. It will all come to pass as you have said above, and then we can run around, thumping on our chests proudly, and say "we told you so"....of course, that wont resurrect the quality of our breed, continue the breeding of purebred, exquisite lines, or provide someone that wants to purchase a quality, purebred Yorkie, a pup they can have around for 10-16 years. When the people running the show, are of the mindset that all they can see are "too many unwanted dogs" and "there is no reason to be breeding dogs anyway", then this is the monster we have been fighting through all our breed clubs and in the halls of capital buildings in State's capitols across this country, for over 3 years. Unless you were actually in these marches, in these legislative fights, in these States pleading with governors and Congress etc, you have no idea what alternatives have been proposed and offered for consideration, along with hundreds of thousands of letters and petitions, trying to show specifically and exactly how these regulations are going to do all the wrong things to all the wrong people.....Like my momma used to say to me, "Judy, you are wasting your breath...one day you are going to wish you had all those breaths ahead of you....". So, I rest my case on this. I have my plan formulated, and I will sit on the sideline and watch it all disappear, shake my head, and simply sigh, "we told you so".

Just by the way farm animals are treated and the USDA not caring, it is obv there is more to this than them wanting to protect little puppies and their owners.

I can't find the housing specifications, just the ApHIS interpretation.:rolleyes: Anybody have them?

What you don't get Nancy, is perception is very potent, in fact perception is at least what makes 3/4 of reality. If we small based hobby breeders perceive we are threatened, then quite simply we are at least in our minds, and so we shall act accordingly.

Nancy do you seriously think this law is going to curtail bad breeders especially large scale bad breeders? Nope not one whit. They will find other avenues to advertise their product.

The change in regulations will also increase from three to four the number of breeding females (dogs, cats or small exotic/wild pocket pets) that people may maintain before they would be required to be licensed under the Animal Welfare Act. This will allow APHIS to better concentrate its resources on ensuring the welfare of animals at larger breeding operations. Breeders who maintain four or fewer breeding females are considered hobby breeders who already provide sufficient care to their animals without APHIS’ oversight – provided they only sell the offspring of animals born and raised on their premises for pets or exhibition


USDA - APHIS - Missing Page - Error 404

So what happens if you sell another dog to a breeder??





















If you fall under the APHIS definition you must keep your breeding establishment to AWA standards. And Nancy that is where you will find what AWA wants in terms of kennels.

This I agree with, and that's why I'm so upset that so much misinformation is being spread without the facts out there. People will pass on an email as if it's factual information and then breeders get so upset they threaten to stop breeding instead of trying to think up what legislation would help. This has happened on other legislation and everyone said that the same thing would happen, but no one ever admits, that they were wrong. Yes, I do believe this law will help regulate commercial breeders that can't be touched right now.

I think you can sell a dog to anther breeder as a breeding dog without any problem or restrictions, that's what Bjh was saying, I haven't seen the actual bill in some time, lost all my bookmarks, so I can't tell you what the rules are for those who would have to be listed, but again, you can solve that problem by allowing your clients to see the dog before you actually sell it. I've really never talked to a breeder who didn't insist on meeting her clients. I truly believe all breeders should do this, and if they won't they need to have some type of license.

Here's the email address if anyone would like to ask questions. ace@aphis.usda.gov>;

So be it...
 

While you animal rights sympathizers are all puffed up with pride at having seen yet another piece of anti-breeder regulation added to the maze of rules that already had the vigilantes running roughshod over us, we are scaling back our breeding programs, lawyering up and making our contingency plans for when the "authorities" come around looking for any little excuse to take our dogs away.

For those of you who get on here and preach how a puppy buyer MUST visit a breeder's home and see the "facility" with their own eyes, well, good luck with that! How eager do you think I am to give out my address to anyone? People conducting a raid don't necessarily show up with a search warrant, and they do lie at the door to gain entry. I CAN PROVE THAT!!

Have you noticed a drop in show entries? I need to use a handler but get sick at the thought of sending my dog away where he/she may be less safe than here. Gun toting "authorities" raided a big cat show in RI last spring, scaring daylights out of the people there, including children.

The need to protect myself and my dogs will be reflected in my puppy prices and availability, or lack thereof. Anyone thinking they'll be wanting a well bred Yorkie should start saving up.

Have a nice day!

After losing my little girl, Ashley, it was my great hope that, when the time came to add another baby to our lives, she would come from a breeder who loved her little ones with all of heart and soul and raised them as part of a family. These breeders like this, who breed for the pure joy of bringing babies into the world and who are there to protect, better, nurture, the breed they are working with so that we can have healthy, beautiful dogs with excellent temperaments are the heroes out there. What they do is a labor and a gift of love. I applaud these breeders and am very grateful for them. I was blessed to get Katie from one of these breeders. Even with very careful screening of puppy buyers, it takes a leap of faith to give up a very loved baby to his/her forever home. What these exemplary breeders do is bring such joy and happiness to people's lives and they also do much to preserve and better the Yorkshire Terrier breed. I am so very grateful that Katie was raised in such a loving home before she came to live with us and that her breeder placed her little girl with me. I heard such wonderful things about Katie's breeder from my dear friend Gemy, and she spoke to our breeder on my behalf over and above the many conversations I had with her over the phone. I personally met her breeder's partner at the National Yorkie Specialty the year before when I spent the day with Gemy there. My other dear friend Jackie, who along with Gemy are the reasons why Katie is part of our family, met our breeder when she went to get Katie for me when I was unable to. Nine months later she got her own little girl from the same breeder. I knew for sure that Katie came from a wonderful breeder, even though I never met her. I definitely will meet her someday because I know she misses Katie, and I owe that to her after placing my precious gift with me. I truly believe we owe these breeders a lot, and I am so saddened to hear about this law. I hate puppy mills as much as everyone else here does, but it is imperative that we protect ethical breeders who are doing everything right to protect the lives, health, beauty, and special temperament of the breed we love. To have such intense fear of having their loved ones seized is a horrific reality that they are faced with, and this makes me very sad.

Out of the context of the news regulations, which I am not in favor of . . . I sympathize with your position as a breeder, but how is a pet mom like me supposed to identify a good breeder? If I were looking for a Yorkie puppy for the first time, what would you advise me to do?

I found Max & Teddy's breeder's website on the internet. The pictures of her dogs being shown (by her and a handler) gave me more confidence that she was a good breeder. Also gave me more confidence about visiting her home. It is just as scary to go to a stranger's home (especially carrying a large amount of cash) as it is to have strangers come to your home. If I were in your position, I would probably ask for verifiable information like place of employment.

Seeing the breeding pair also gave me more confidence about choosing my puppy.

As for price . . . yes, there will always be people who are unhappy with the price.

Ooops I guess that will teach me not to comment on things I don't know much about. I was just thinking about what I personally would do if I bought a pup from another state. I'm not a breeder, so have no idea of the impact it would have.