Just Curious About Breeding

[concretegurl]

There is a breeder I know who afyer c-section lost her dam who has a litter of believe it 6, she spent 28k total barely keeping the pups alive.

At 2k a peice as AKC champion pups well do the math, not to mention she lost her dam.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

There is a breeder I know who afyer c-section lost her dam who has a litter of believe it 6, she spent 28k total barely keeping the pups alive.

At 2k a peice as AKC champion pups well do the math, not to mention she lost her dam.

Very well within the realm of reality! It cost me over $20,000.00 saving 5 babies from parvo that was brought into my home on the feet/clothes of people that I allowed to "come see the babies and pick one out". People just are not used to seeing these huge sums of money going out for vet bills, to save a momma or her litter....but it is something breeders do, or face the real possibility of having to do, with every breeding! (I have a real difficult time with accepting the term "greeders" that is often thrown at hobby breeders.....totally NOT fair!! Especially when most people looking for the perfect puppy, expect to get one for $300.00 -$500.00!!!)

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

Very well within the realm of reality! It cost me over $20,000.00 saving 5 babies from parvo that was brought into my home on the feet/clothes of people that I allowed to "come see the babies and pick one out". People just are not used to seeing these huge sums of money going out for vet bills, to save a momma or her litter....but it is something breeders do, or face the real possibility of having to do, with every breeding! (I have a real difficult time with accepting the term "greeders" that is often thrown at hobby breeders.....totally NOT fair!! Especially when most people looking for the perfect puppy, expect to get one for $300.00 -$500.00!!!)

Pure idiocy on the buying publics' part!

If you want to spend only this,then rescue, buy from a shelter. You know the thing is there are very good reasons why a purebred dog should be expensive!

Have you ever actually done the math Yorkie mom, on how much this has cost you so far? How far in the red you would be, if this was actually a "business"? I've been too afaird too Hubby figures by now, we could have taken at least 3 around the world vacations!

BTW what happens in the States with the IRS? Can you offset your hobby business losses against your personal taxable income? We can, but for only so long - I think 6yrs or so.

[My Ladybug]

[

(2) For me I refer to myself as a Hobby Breeder. I am also a Show breeder. I never thought Hobby Breeder equated to a "greeder". I'm not sure how you formed this opinion. Perhaps you can share how you formed this opinion. Is there some authoratative body out there, that you have read, that linked a Hobby Breeder to a "greeder"?[/QUOTE]

Forgive me! I read some time ago on this forum someone responding to a "Hobby Breeder" as being a Greeder, maybe it was the situation in which they were going about it, I'm not sure. However, I looked at a Hobby Breeder as someone that doesn't breed for a living, but from time to time. I don't know if that's wrong too. I don't mean to offend anyone by what I've written, so please know that is not my intentions at all.

[My Ladybug]

[quote=Yorkiemom1;4035048]

Originally Posted by My Ladybug

I really do hope your friend listens to you....you can really end up broken hearted with credit cards maxed out, trying to deliver a female that has a baby sideways and cant do it on her own. If she does not recognize when she needs to go for help, she can loose her momma as well as the entire litter. Even if she survives the c-section, she can throw a clot post op and die. When you breed your female, you need to ask yourself, is this female soooo good that I want to risk HER life to try to get babies from her that may or may not be any where as good as she is? And you have to have the money to back it up, in case she does get into trouble.....or the babies need intensive care....you are looking at anywhere from $3000.00 up to probably close to $8000.00, depending how sick everyone, and how aggressive you are trying to save them.

Thank you Yorkiemom1. I appreciate you taking the time to give your input.......For my friend money has never been an issue, she is very well off financially and would not have a problem spending it on her babies.The financial issue didn't seemed to be a problem but reading her the information so far HAS made her decide to do a little more research. Again she isn't computer savy so she is going to the library to get books on the ins and outs of breeding, as well as talk with the breeder she purchased her boy from. Has she changed her mind completely??? Honestly, I can't say she has, but reading some of these situations that could possibly happen to her babies kind of freaked her out. She was shocked to see so many things that could go wrong, but she has actually witnessed her mom's poodle giving birth without any issues so I gather that being the reason she feels somewhat capable of handling it. I will try and keep everyone posted on what her future plans will be. If I continue to get input, I will continue to pass it on to her. Thank you again for your time.

[concretegurl]

Personally I used the term greeder for anyobe who I can determine is breeding for profit only and furthermore they deny the standard costs of veterinary care, do not health test etc, just a BYB with a lot if dogs pumping out litter as a side income for themselves.

Health testing isn't that expensive actually, OFA and chic cerf are, but basic health screenings and knowing the line genetics is so cheap compared to the costs of a mishap, or parvo like Yorkimom went through....a greeder would not hace spent that they'd have considered the sale of those pups lost income and well hopefully dumped the litter at rescue, many put them down some themselves to ecen cut the cvet euthanasian cost.

FYI for breeders health gene testing for colors is only a couple hundred at most too so off standard breeders even do this.


The vreeder I was refering to previously that 2kprice was for limited registration pet only quality pups.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Personally I used the term greeder for anyobe who I can determine is breeding for profit only and furthermore they deny the standard costs of veterinary care, do not health test etc, just a BYB with a lot if dogs pumping out litter as a side income for themselves.

Health testing isn't that expensive actually, OFA and chic cerf are, but basic health screenings and knowing the line genetics is so cheap compared to the costs of a mishap, or parvo like Yorkimom went through....a greeder would not hace spent that they'd have considered the sale of those pups lost income and well hopefully dumped the litter at rescue, many put them down some themselves to ecen cut the cvet euthanasian cost.

FYI for breeders health gene testing for colors is only a couple hundred at most too so off standard breeders even do this.


The vreeder I was refering to previously that 2kprice was for limited registration pet only quality pups.

To my mind basic screenings are those that are required by the breed club and beyond that as well. HD AND ED OFA' d xrays and cost to post results were about $250 which included a nominal fee to have them evaluated by OFA and posted. CERF testing for PRA and cataracts is $15 to post and at a show sponsored health clinic about $60 to do. Doing private PRA testing with a board certified opthamologist is about $180 here in TO. BAT testing is relatively cheap I think about $60. Thyroid testing I paid about $150.
Heart Doppler testing about $100 or so dollars. Brucellosis testing is $250 here. Basic full blood screen $100. I don't do BAER as my breeds do not have a genetic predisposition for hearing problems. By my rough math we are already at almost $900 or so dollars. Then there are other tests, hyperuricosuria genetic testing $65. I've not done the color test at this point so I don't know that $$.
So I disagree in that to do the proper screenings it is not cheap at all!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by My Ladybug

[

(2) For me I refer to myself as a Hobby Breeder. I am also a Show breeder. I never thought Hobby Breeder equated to a "greeder". I'm not sure how you formed this opinion. Perhaps you can share how you formed this opinion. Is there some authoratative body out there, that you have read, that linked a Hobby Breeder to a "greeder"?

Forgive me! I read some time ago on this forum someone responding to a "Hobby Breeder" as being a Greeder, maybe it was the situation in which they were going about it, I'm not sure. However, I looked at a Hobby Breeder as someone that doesn't breed for a living, but from time to time. I don't know if that's wrong too. I don't mean to offend anyone by what I've written, so please know that is not my intentions at all.[/QUOTE]

Not a problem! Actually you are correct in so far as what I deem to be the true Hobby Breeder doesn't breed for a living! Usually they have few very well thought out litters.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by gemy

To my mind basic screenings are those that are required by the breed club and beyond that as well. HD AND ED OFA' d xrays and cost to post results were about $250 which included a nominal fee to have them evaluated by OFA and posted. CERF testing for PRA and cataracts is $15 to post and at a show sponsored health clinic about $60 to do. Doing private PRA testing with a board certified opthamologist is about $180 here in TO. BAT testing is relatively cheap I think about $60. Thyroid testing I paid about $150.
Heart Doppler testing about $100 or so dollars. Brucellosis testing is $250 here. Basic full blood screen $100. I don't do BAER as my breeds do not have a genetic predisposition for hearing problems. By my rough math we are already at almost $900 or so dollars. Then there are other tests, hyperuricosuria genetic testing $65. I've not done the color test at this point so I don't know that $$.
So I disagree in that to do the proper screenings it is not cheap at all!

"Cheap...comparatively to the cost of mishap..."[/QUOTE]

I did exclude OFA abd cerf chic and they are (correct me if wrong) annual and I know some breeders do it but are also concerned about the potential long term genetic effects of continual x-rays.

I don't know why but I do notice a difference between certification health tests I see from mini schnauzer breeders abd Yorkie breeders I assume its selective to breed issues.

The color gene testing is mainly utalized by say parti breeders etcs in carrier determination before pairing matings.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

"Cheap...comparatively to the cost of mishap..."

I did exclude OFA abd cerf chic and they are (correct me if wrong) annual and I know some breeders do it but are also concerned about the potential long term genetic effects of continual x-rays.

I don't know why but I do notice a difference between certification health tests I see from mini schnauzer breeders abd Yorkie breeders I assume its selective to breed issues.

The color gene testing is mainly utalized by say parti breeders etcs in carrier determination before pairing matings.[/QUOTE]

OFA testing for HIP or ELBOW dysplasia is usually only done once - at 2yrs old. PENN hip is another popular place to do early on testing for hips only - both these organizations have their supporters and detractors.

LP is practitioner examination and should be done early and I would repeat at 18mths and 2yrs old.

CERF - PRA testing is recommended by the opthamologists to do yearly. Most breeders unless breeding yearly opt to do every second year or before their next breeding/and or if they are concerned about an eye problem.

Blackies do carry a color gene, we still at times get an "off colored" BRT - ie any othercolor but black. I have not done this test yet.

[Yorkiemom1]

My CPA has done the math....he says he can not understand why in the world anyone would throw money down the drain like I have, on these dogs. He has already told me something is going to have to change because I can not go into retirement spending the money I do, on expenses for this business. I only do a little better than break even. I try not to think about it....I could have retired 2 years ago, if I was not "fooling around, throwing money away on these dogs", as my CPA tells me! So, I will have to see what happens....

Originally Posted by gemy

[/B]

Pure idiocy on the buying publics' part!

If you want to spend only this,then rescue, buy from a shelter. You know the thing is there are very good reasons why a purebred dog should be expensive!

Have you ever actually done the math Yorkie mom, on how much this has cost you so far? How far in the red you would be, if this was actually a "business"? I've been too afaird too Hubby figures by now, we could have taken at least 3 around the world vacations!

BTW what happens in the States with the IRS? Can you offset your hobby business losses against your personal taxable income? We can, but for only so long - I think 6yrs or so.

[KimInMD]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

My CPA has done the math....he says he can not understand why in the world anyone would throw money down the drain like I have, on these dogs. He has already told me something is going to have to change because I can not go into retirement spending the money I do, on expenses for this business. I only do a little better than break even. I try not to think about it....I could have retired 2 years ago, if I was not "fooling around, throwing money away on these dogs", as my CPA tells me! So, I will have to see what happens....

Judy, you're a breeder because you love the Yorkshire Terrier with all your heart, your dogs are beautiful, and quite frankly, you are great at what you do. It's never easy to do things the right way, without shortcuts, but clearly, quality shows. All newby breeders or those considering breeding can take lessons from your example.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by KimInMD

Judy, you're a breeder because you love the Yorkshire Terrier with all your heart, your dogs are beautiful, and quite frankly, you are great at what you do. It's never easy to do things the right way, without shortcuts, but clearly, quality shows. All newby breeders or those considering breeding can take lessons from your example.

What a kind, gracious thing to say to me!! I appreciate it more than you will ever know.....and I am going to print it out and include it in my taxes when I send them to my CPA....I can then tell him....."THIS IS WHY I DO WHAT I DO, THE WAY I DO IT!!!..."

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

What a kind, gracious thing to say to me!! I appreciate it more than you will ever know.....and I am going to print it out and include it in my taxes when I send them to my CPA....I can then tell him....."THIS IS WHY I DO WHAT I DO, THE WAY I DO IT!!!..."

Attach pics of your dogs and pups ...might make a yorkie lover out of your cpa!