NEVER never bred a TINY

[Carters Mom]

I keep coming back to this thread and re-reading the information. How many times have we seen members post commenting that there are no hard facts to support that breeding tinies is dangerous and wanting breeding members to come forth with an experience to back up that it is not advisable to breed smaller yorkies.

I sincerely applaud you for educating the forum members, now and into the future, of YOUR negative experience and how heartwrenching the whole thing was for you and the pain that your baby endured. It takes a person of high standards to share a story such as you did.

Thank you again!

Please, let us know how mom and the babies are doing!

Lisa

[Yorksrule]

Ok I have to response to this since I do breed small ones. I am so sorry to hear about you problems. The first thing I would do is get another vet. That is the most unethical procedure I have ever heard of. He needs to be turned in. I would not have allowed that to happen. My vet uses a gas that they wake up from very quickly. IMO a c-section is easier on the Mama than a difficult delivery. However if a c-section is warranted because the female is to small to have the pups (because a problem in any size dog can call for them having to have a c-section) I have her spayed & find her a good pet only home. I think everyone was waiting for a post of this nature to come up as it was pounced upon & beat into the ground. I haven't seen this happen with anyone with a large dog having a c-section. We need to have a poll on how many females in general have to have a section done. If you have a runt of a litter that is from larger dogs common sense should tell you do not breed. Being prepared for the unexpected does go with the business of breeding dogs. Hope everything is going well for you & your new family members.

[cheryl000]

Originally Posted by Yorksrule

Ok I have to response to this since I do breed small ones. I am so sorry to hear about you problems. The first thing I would do is get another vet. That is the most unethical procedure I have ever heard of. He needs to be turned in. I would not have allowed that to happen. My vet uses a gas that they wake up from very quickly. IMO a c-section is easier on the Mama than a difficult delivery. However if a c-section is warranted because the female is to small to have the pups (because a problem in any size dog can call for them having to have a c-section) I have her spayed & find her a good pet only home. I think everyone was waiting for a post of this nature to come up as it was pounced upon & beat into the ground. I haven't seen this happen with anyone with a large dog having a c-section. We need to have a poll on how many females in general have to have a section done. If you have a runt of a litter that is from larger dogs common sense should tell you do not breed. Being prepared for the unexpected does go with the business of breeding dogs. Hope everything is going well for you & your new family members.

Wow, and you tell people they are rude and should MTOB on your threads. This thread isn't a debate, she was just telling others about HER experience. Which I think is wonderful of her to do, because she is thinking of OTHER people's tiny mothers (like your's.)I believe that most people don't come on here and say what happened if it was a negative experience. I'm sure her vet did the best he could. She's brave enough to tell others about what happened to her. She's turning her tragedy into a learning experience for everyone, not just her. Sorry if that makes gives some people who breed tinies lose business. She doesn't even have 6 breeding females. She only had 1.
C-sections are NOT natural. 3 lb dogs having babies is NOT natural. How do you know whether your dog with gas is in pain or not? C-sections take longer to recover from. That is known to everyone. She is happy with her vet, who didn't even charge her for it. I believe any vet who repeatedly gives a c-section to a poor dog is only in it for $$$. No matter how much it's downplayed, it's major surgery and dogs DO die from it. Thank god this one ended up okay. But I guess you can't save them all. How many have to die and suffer before people realize that it's wrong?

[ttreatsyorkies]

I know that the following may offend others and to that I am sorry, but I too have my own opinions and I like to share them. For starts yes Tinies can have pups, I dont believe that anyone is trully debating that. But to compare a larger dag that has delivery problems, with that of a tiny is rediculous. A larger dog is less likely to have problems, anyone breeding tinies knows that there is a great chance of complications. I am not saying that there are always problems, but why take such a cutie and place her in such a high risk situation.
Some keep stating that things are beat into the ground. If educating people on things and sharing experiences and ideas is beating things into the ground, then so is how loveable and cute our Yorkies are; and noone seems tired of hearing about that.
Now if there were only a handful of members on this board than there would be no big threads, nor would there be such a wide range of experiences or knowledge. Just because the thread might not interest you as an individual doesn't mean that it is being beat into the ground. Share your experiences or your opinions if you want, and if you choose to only do that than don't cmplain about how many times you read the same issues.
Anyone that spends a considerable amount of time on here can see at how quickly the threads move on, and since we are continually welcoming new members and members keep having problems than things are going to be brought up.

[Yorksrule]

I enjoy this board & I have learned many things & gotten a lot of idea's. Maybe I just was overly sensitive because of being bashed a little. And that's OK.

[cheryl000]

Originally Posted by ttreatsyorkies

I know that the following may offend others and to that I am sorry, but I too have my own opinions and I like to share them. For starts yes Tinies can have pups, I dont believe that anyone is trully debating that. But to compare a larger dag that has delivery problems, with that of a tiny is rediculous. A larger dog is less likely to have problems, anyone breeding tinies knows that there is a great chance of complications. I am not saying that there are always problems, but why take such a cutie and place her in such a high risk situation.
Some keep stating that things are beat into the ground. If educating people on things and sharing experiences and ideas is beating things into the ground, then so is how loveable and cute our Yorkies are; and noone seems tired of hearing about that.
Now if there were only a handful of members on this board than there would be no big threads, nor would there be such a wide range of experiences or knowledge. Just because the thread might not interest you as an individual doesn't mean that it is being beat into the ground. Share your experiences or your opinions if you want, and if you choose to only do that than don't cmplain about how many times you read the same issues.
Anyone that spends a considerable amount of time on here can see at how quickly the threads move on, and since we are continually welcoming new members and members keep having problems than things are going to be brought up.

well said

[cheryl000]

I started the poll you asked for. If people want to talk about it, move there. I believe this thread should just stay here for reference purposes to help others.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by newyorkiemommy

Thank you for the advice-I definitely have no intention of putting my baby at risk. I guess my best bet would be to spay her, and stud the male to get one of the puppies from that litter. We didn't buy our tinies on purpose-they just both turned out to be that way.

In my opinion spaying tinies is a risk too. I wouldn't recommend breeding her because she is too small, but I also wouldn't recommend spaying her unless you cannot supervise her to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. I believe that dogs, like people, should keep their "parts" unless their is a valid health reason to make it in their best interests to alter them. I do not agree with routine altering of every pet. I believe every pet owner needs to be responsible enough with their pet to make sure it is supervised properly to avoid unwanted pregnancy, not just have them surgically altered so you don't have to think about it. Surgery is risky and painful for the animal.

I have two small females that I will never breed, but I will also not risk the spay surgery unless there is a reason for it later on that makes it in their best interests to spay them. Both of my breeders advised against the spaying as well.

I don't have any intact males in my home but, if I did, I would simply separate them when my females were in heat for the few weeks a year that occurs. I know it is inconvenient and a hassle maybe but if i can avoid unnecessary surgery for any of my babies I will.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[red98vett]

Kelly ...I got lost in replys & I didn't see if you posted since you started this thread....

HOW are your puppies and mom doing ? Are they eating ? How is the new mommy Peanut feeling ? IS everything ok ?

You must be so busy with them but wanted to say that I hope everything is all right and they are getting stronger by the hour....

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

I am not trying to pick on you here but just asking some questions in the hopes of figuring out this puzzle. You are indeed brave to tell your story and we are all learning a lot from every new experience we get to share vicariously like this. I respect what you do and know that you are probably learning as you go as well.

I would be getting a new vet too, especially if I was a breeder. I would only use a reproductive specialist who knows what they are doing. You do not sew up an incision w/o anesthesia!!! That is just cruel.

I would not trust your vet either if he assured you prior to breeding that she could easily deliver a standard sized newborn (5 oz) and it turned out he was wrong. There are ways to determine this is advance.

How many generations back did you verify the smallness of the yorkies from the lines of the female and the male? Breeders who seriously, responsibly, professionally, and consistently breeding for tinies (note I did not say "breeding tinies" but rather "breeding FOR tinies") hopefully use a reproductive specialist or at least a vet who is very experiencd and has a lot of breeders in their practice, they breed the size of the dogs down year after year until they KNOW for a fact that the chances of larger puppies or "throwbacks" are very very very small to avoid an increase in the risk of C-section. Because a male or a female is small does not mean that their puppies will be necessarily. You have to develop a program of smaller yorkies to reduce the risk and have more of a chance of getting small babies.

It is also not true that you HAVE TO line breed to do this. The breeders (some of whom are vets) I know who breed for tinies do not line breed.

[wnalegria]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I am not trying to pick on you here but just asking some questions in the hopes of figuring out this puzzle. You are indeed brave to tell your story and we are all learning a lot from every new experience we get to share vicariously like this. I respect what you do and know that you are probably learning as you go as well.

I would be getting a new vet too, especially if I was a breeder. I would only use a reproductive specialist who knows what they are doing. You do not sew up an incision w/o anesthesia!!! That is just cruel.

I would not trust your vet either if he assured you prior to breeding that she could easily deliver a standard sized newborn (5 oz) and it turned out he was wrong. There are ways to determine this is advance.

How many generations back did you verify the smallness of the yorkies from the lines of the female and the male? Breeders who seriously, responsibly, professionally, and consistently breeding for tinies (note I did not say "breeding tinies" but rather "breeding FOR tinies") hopefully use a reproductive specialist or at least a vet who is very experiencd and has a lot of breeders in their practice, they breed the size of the dogs down year after year until they KNOW for a fact that the chances of larger puppies or "throwbacks" are very very very small to avoid an increase in the risk of C-section. Because a male or a female is small does not mean that their puppies will be necessarily. You have to develop a program of smaller yorkies to reduce the risk and have more of a chance of getting small babies.

It is also not true that you HAVE TO line breed to do this. The breeders (some of whom are vets) I know who breed for tinies do not line breed.

I would love to talk to some of these breeders who are vets that you keep talking about. It would be a very interesting and enlightening discussion to hear from them first hand and the experiences they have had. Do they have any articles in print that they can share with us? Where are they located at maybe someone who lives close could go and do a interview and share the information with us. I would be glad to help pay for a visit to them to hear their wealth of information. I am sure that there are others who would chip in also.

[YorkieShadow]

I am just now reading this. I am so sorry for what the mommy had to go thru and the loss of the baby. Thank you for sharing your story.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

I would love to talk to some of these breeders who are vets that you keep talking about. It would be a very interesting and enlightening discussion to hear from them first hand and the experiences they have had. Do they have any articles in print that they can share with us? Where are they located at maybe someone who lives close could go and do a interview and share the information with us. I would be glad to help pay for a visit to them to hear their wealth of information. I am sure that there are others who would chip in also.

One was Ava'a breeder's vet and I spoke to him and his wife several times before I purchased Ava. Just so you know, Ava's breeder doesn't breed tiny females, but she sold her vet a tiny and he bred her. I will see if I can get ahold of her and get his contact info again.

Another one was a vet in Texas who bought from a well known breeder there and started a breeding program using a 4 lb yorkie. Just to reiterate again, in all of these instances the breeder has had the female analyzed and tested thoroughly, a smaller male is used and there are several generations spanning many years where only small dogs were produced to reduce the chance of a large puppy as much as possible.

Kathy~ Do you use a theriogenologist in your breeding program and what does he/she say about the cutoff size for the female yorkie and breeding?

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Another one was a vet in Texas who bought from a well known breeder there and started a breeding program using a 4 lb yorkie.

The only good thing about a vet breeding tinies is he doesn't have to pay for a c-section if something goes wrong...he can just do it himself.

[cheryl000]

I just wonder if these breeders are telling the people they got their little females from about what they're doing.