Well here we are........

[Suze225]

I have been really debating about whether to make this post or not, but finally decided I think it is definitely, in our best interest to do so. I believe Bella is pregnant..... I am fairly sure that I will get so much crap, I may wish that I hadn't posted here, but I just want everything to go well, if in fact she is pg and the experience the breeders here have, is just too valuable not to. Soooooooo I guess I am prepared mentally for the best and the worst you all have to give me.

Bella is only 13.5 months old and Jett is just shy of 7 months old. (I will not give any excuses as to how she got pregnant, because I guess it is irrelevant at this point. We DID try to prevent it, but, again irrelevant.) Bella is right at 5 pounds. Scale shows between 4 pounds 14 ozs and 5 pounds 2ozs. Which is good. Jett is 2 pounds 5 ozs, and extremely petite. (Another good thing. Both sets of parents and grandparents of Bella and Jett were small as well. Between 2 and 5-6 pounds.) (All were free whelpers as well)

Ok, so now to my questions.......we caught Bella and Jett in a tie on April 14th, at this point, I decided to let them be free to do what they would through the 16th. ( trying to prevent only one puppy, from only one tie.) On the 16th doggie diapers AND a onesie prevented any further ties. Jett was only 5 3/4 months old during the tie. We did see them lock again on the 15th. (His testicles are descended and in place, so I believe he is sexually mature.) Is it possible, he would tie and lock with her and NOT be sexually mature to sire pups??

She is now approximately 33 days since her first witnessed tie. She is showing many signs of pregnancy. Vulva has remained swollen since heat, nipples are growing a bit larger than they were during her heat. She is also very sleepy and lazy, MUCH more so than usual. She also has had a few bouts of nausea and vomiting, in the mornings before she eats. I purchased a fetal doppler, and tried using it yesterday at 32 days, but I didn't get anything definite as far as heart tones. (Might be too early.) Those of you who use dopplers, when is the earliest you found the fetal heart rates???

I have talked to our vet, plus two others. All say to come in between 50 and 55 days for xrays to see where we are. I asked about US but none recommended them, all said xrays were they best way to go. Is this true??? (I did find a place in Phoenix that does US, and wanted 300 just to confirm pregnancy, eeks!!)

Bella is being fed Blue Buffalo small breed puppy and blue buffalo canned food. I free feed her but only offer canned food once in the mornings. Should I be giving her a vitamin as well?? I do have some but have not given them yet, as I wanted more opinions on this. (Yes I do know not to give calcium until the whelp starts, and to make sure she gets enough calcium after the whelp.) (I know it can be dangerous and c-sections are possible...and can be very expensive......etc.)

I have spent many many many many hours reading and researching pregnancy, whelping, and puppy care. As soon as I verify we have puppies, I will be purchasing all supplies necessary for the whelp and after care for Bella and babies.

I really would like the support and expertise that you can offer me at this time. I know I will have many questions these next few months, and I am very glad that I have the people here on YT to give their expert advice.

[gloriajean]

will AKC register the puppies? I thought the male had to be 8 months old. It's posible she is having a false preg since your male was so young. good luck keep us updated.

[bellababy08]

I would get her to the Vet ASAP for a spay...unless you want to breed her? Is that why she isn't spayed already? She is way to young to be having puppies...She is still a puppy herself and may reject her pups and be prepared for a C-section and have you asked yourself..."Can I handle losing my girl"...cause you could...is that something your willing to gamble with?...I know I couldn't!!

[Suze225]

[QUOTE=bellababy08;3539087]I would get her to the Vet ASAP for a spay...unless you want to breed her? Is that why she isn't spayed already? She is way to young to be having puppies...She is still a puppy herself and may reject her pups and be prepared for a C-section and have you asked yourself..."Can I handle losing my girl"...cause you could...is that something your willing to gamble with?...I know I couldn't!![/QUOTE

I do very much appreciate your comments. I do know of the many complications that can and do arise. I am working now on trying to prevent as many of these as possible, and learn learn learn everything I can. Thank you. Hence the reason I posted here.

[horsnaround]

I think you ask very good questions. She sounds like she could be pregnant. Usually the pups will come between 63 and 65 days. I always feed my mommy puppy food during pregnancy and as much as she wanted. I then would have some food I got from my vet to give her a little between pups. She has had three litters of seven and never a problem.I too bred to a smaller male ( not that young tho). My vets told me second heat of a dog was okay to breed. ( I know many disagree ) but I went with my vet. Lexi is know spade and all the pups have found wonderful homes. She did weigh more then your female. There is a lot of sad things that can happen. But also many times things go fine. Yes you have to be prepared for either. It was a very good experience for me.
But have read many terrible stories about whelping. I to researched a ton and had a experienced yorkie person on Skype watching the first time she delivered. Which helped a ton. The next two litters went very well also I take everyone to the vet within the first three days for tails and dewclaws and to check them over along with mom. Good luck.

[tegamom1]

IX. OVERAGE/UNDERAGE SIRES
AND DAMS
Chapter 3, Section 5 of the Rules Applying to
Registration and Discipline reads as follows:
“No dog or litter out of a dam under eight (8)
months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time
of mating, or by a sire under seven (7) months or
over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating,
will be registered unless the application for registration
shall be accompanied by an affidavit or evidence
which shall prove the fact to the satisfaction of The
American Kennel Club.”

[Suze225]

Originally Posted by gloriajean

will AKC register the puppies? I thought the male had to be 8 months old. It's posible she is having a false preg since your male was so young. good luck keep us updated.

If we do get any puppies out of this litter they will not need to be registered. (Unless we get more than 4) They will all be staying in our family! My mother, my sister, my brother and sister in law and my aunt and uncle all are wanting pups if we have any! They dont care about registration papers, thankfully! I know all will go to fantastic homes, with no small children or other animals at all!!

I do believe that I can register both with CKC, with their AKC registrations IF necessary. I KNOW this isn't the most desireable thing, using CKC, but I guess it is available if we have to.

And yes, it is possible to be a false pregnancy, hopefully will be able to confirm within the next week.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Suze225

I have been really debating about whether to make this post or not, but finally decided I think it is definitely, in our best interest to do so. I believe Bella is pregnant..... I am fairly sure that I will get so much crap, I may wish that I hadn't posted here, but I just want everything to go well, if in fact she is pg and the experience the breeders here have, is just too valuable not to. Soooooooo I guess I am prepared mentally for the best and the worst you all have to give me.

Bella is only 13.5 months old and Jett is just shy of 7 months old. (I will not give any excuses as to how she got pregnant, because I guess it is irrelevant at this point. We DID try to prevent it, but, again irrelevant.) Bella is right at 5 pounds. Scale shows between 4 pounds 14 ozs and 5 pounds 2ozs. Which is good. Jett is 2 pounds 5 ozs, and extremely petite. (Another good thing. Both sets of parents and grandparents of Bella and Jett were small as well. Between 2 and 5-6 pounds.) (All were free whelpers as well)

Ok, so now to my questions.......we caught Bella and Jett in a tie on April 14th, at this point, I decided to let them be free to do what they would through the 16th. ( trying to prevent only one puppy, from only one tie.) On the 16th doggie diapers AND a onesie prevented any further ties. Jett was only 5 3/4 months old during the tie. We did see them lock again on the 15th. (His testicles are descended and in place, so I believe he is sexually mature.) Is it possible, he would tie and lock with her and NOT be sexually mature to sire pups??

She is now approximately 33 days since her first witnessed tie. She is showing many signs of pregnancy. Vulva has remained swollen since heat, nipples are growing a bit larger than they were during her heat. She is also very sleepy and lazy, MUCH more so than usual. She also has had a few bouts of nausea and vomiting, in the mornings before she eats. I purchased a fetal doppler, and tried using it yesterday at 32 days, but I didn't get anything definite as far as heart tones. (Might be too early.) Those of you who use dopplers, when is the earliest you found the fetal heart rates???

I have talked to our vet, plus two others. All say to come in between 50 and 55 days for xrays to see where we are. I asked about US but none recommended them, all said xrays were they best way to go. Is this true??? (I did find a place in Phoenix that does US, and wanted 300 just to confirm pregnancy, eeks!!)

Bella is being fed Blue Buffalo small breed puppy and blue buffalo canned food. I free feed her but only offer canned food once in the mornings. Should I be giving her a vitamin as well?? I do have some but have not given them yet, as I wanted more opinions on this. (Yes I do know not to give calcium until the whelp starts, and to make sure she gets enough calcium after the whelp.) (I know it can be dangerous and c-sections are possible...and can be very expensive......etc.)

I have spent many many many many hours reading and researching pregnancy, whelping, and puppy care. As soon as I verify we have puppies, I will be purchasing all supplies necessary for the whelp and after care for Bella and babies.

I really would like the support and expertise that you can offer me at this time. I know I will have many questions these next few months, and I am very glad that I have the people here on YT to give their expert advice.

No crap here from me, what is refreshing is the oopsy pregnancy happened and you made no excuses for it. As well your study after the fact, your investigation into the health lines of your breeding pair, all good things to do.

Now I do have a couple of suggestions; if you do Xray at 55 days, that might at the most leave you 8 days to gather supplies. Is this enough time for you? I don't know where you live or the availability of supplies. But there are great lists on here in other threads of what you might need.
The other suggestion I have is to borrow the whelping supplies from a breeder friend (if of course you don't have long term plans to breed again).

What I would like to talk about is the health of your breeding pair. Some questions and information for you.

I'm assuming the bitch had clear BATS at 16 wks and 6 months. LS is not uncommon in this breed, and while you checked the vertical pedigree did you check the horizontal one? That being her siblings, and also half siblings health in terms of LS but many other health conditions. Some of which are talked about below.

I'm assuming that your bitch is clear of LP. And you have also checked the vertical and horizontal pedigree for this including half siblings. While LP can happen as a result of environment, early onset of LP and in particular in both knees, and especially the early onset of moderate to severe LP (early onset less than 18mths old), would predispose me to assume a polygenetic inheritance factor. If this is so, there is a very good chance that one or more of the pups will have LP.

I'm assuming that the bitch hasn't been tested for eye disease. PRA. At this time it is during pregnancy and whelping etc, probably a moot point. But she should be tested after weaning. PRA is an hereditary disorder which eventually causes blindness in the dogs. It can rear its head as early as one year old and even at 5 6 7 or 8 yrs old. Again the checking of both the vertical and horizontal pedigrees need to be done, and if your bitch or sire has PRA it is NOT rrecommended to breed them again, and also I believe it only fair to communicate with your puppy buyers that PRA has been ddx'd with your bitch or your sire.

CT: Collapsing Trachea; again the pedigree vertical horizontal needs to be checked, and I am presuming due to the young age of your pair likely at this point they are clear of this.

I believe forewarned is forearmed, for your very small and young male, maybe you haven't had the second 6mth set of BATS done, please do this, to insure his are well within normal. If not then you will need to go down the diagnositc and perhaps treatment road for him; and I'd be pretty worried about how the pups health will be.

He will need to wait until one year old before PRA can be done.

LP can be assessed now and should be. If both your female and your male have LP the odds are very very good that the majority of your litter will have LP.

Just a note of caution, it is one thing to ask if parents were clear of LP,LS, Leggs Perthe, Hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia, as well as PRA. But if the parents are not listed on CHIC database or CERF or OFA, I truly question the breeders why not listed?

Just a thought, while you are prepared for the potentially high costs of whelping and raising a litter, and pretesting at least for the pups on LS, are you prepared to cover the health costs of the future puppies should they come up with health problems over their lifetime? LP surgery, LS surgery is very expensive. Just some things to consider prior to placement of your pups.


Good luck with your whelp if you decide to go ahead with this pregnancy.

[ArmaniMan]

Originally Posted by Suze225

I decided to let them be free to do what they would through the 16th. ( trying to prevent only one puppy, from only one tie.)

I guess this is the only thing I don't understand- if this was an accident and you didn't want it to happen- why would you want to prevent only one puppy?

[Suze225]

From the research that I had done. Some say that it is better to have more than one pup. One pup can grow quite large in utero, when they are singletons. With a small female, two smaller pups would be better than one very large one?? At least as far as the whelping goes.

Originally Posted by ArmaniMan

I guess this is the only thing I don't understand- if this was an accident and you didn't want it to happen- why would you want to prevent only one puppy?

[Suze225]

Originally Posted by gemy

No crap here from me, what is refreshing is the oopsy pregnancy happened and you made no excuses for it. As well your study after the fact, your investigation into the health lines of your breeding pair, all good things to do.

Now I do have a couple of suggestions; if you do Xray at 55 days, that might at the most leave you 8 days to gather supplies. Is this enough time for you? I don't know where you live or the availability of supplies. But there are great lists on here in other threads of what you might need.
The other suggestion I have is to borrow the whelping supplies from a breeder friend (if of course you don't have long term plans to breed again).

What I would like to talk about is the health of your breeding pair. Some questions and information for you.

I'm assuming the bitch had clear BATS at 16 wks and 6 months. LS is not uncommon in this breed, and while you checked the vertical pedigree did you check the horizontal one? That being her siblings, and also half siblings health in terms of LS but many other health conditions. Some of which are talked about below.

I'm assuming that your bitch is clear of LP. And you have also checked the vertical and horizontal pedigree for this including half siblings. While LP can happen as a result of environment, early onset of LP and in particular in both knees, and especially the early onset of moderate to severe LP (early onset less than 18mths old), would predispose me to assume a polygenetic inheritance factor. If this is so, there is a very good chance that one or more of the pups will have LP.

I'm assuming that the bitch hasn't been tested for eye disease. PRA. At this time it is during pregnancy and whelping etc, probably a moot point. But she should be tested after weaning. PRA is an hereditary disorder which eventually causes blindness in the dogs. It can rear its head as early as one year old and even at 5 6 7 or 8 yrs old. Again the checking of both the vertical and horizontal pedigrees need to be done, and if your bitch or sire has PRA it is NOT rrecommended to breed them again, and also I believe it only fair to communicate with your puppy buyers that PRA has been ddx'd with your bitch or your sire.

CT: Collapsing Trachea; again the pedigree vertical horizontal needs to be checked, and I am presuming due to the young age of your pair likely at this point they are clear of this.

I believe forewarned is forearmed, for your very small and young male, maybe you haven't had the second 6mth set of BATS done, please do this, to insure his are well within normal. If not then you will need to go down the diagnositc and perhaps treatment road for him; and I'd be pretty worried about how the pups health will be.

He will need to wait until one year old before PRA can be done.

LP can be assessed now and should be. If both your female and your male have LP the odds are very very good that the majority of your litter will have LP.

Just a note of caution, it is one thing to ask if parents were clear of LP,LS, Leggs Perthe, Hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia, as well as PRA. But if the parents are not listed on CHIC database or CERF or OFA, I truly question the breeders why not listed?

Just a thought, while you are prepared for the potentially high costs of whelping and raising a litter, and pretesting at least for the pups on LS, are you prepared to cover the health costs of the future puppies should they come up with health problems over their lifetime? LP surgery, LS surgery is very expensive. Just some things to consider prior to placement of your pups.


Good luck with your whelp if you decide to go ahead with this pregnancy.

Gail,

You certainly gave me a lot to research into. Yes, Bella had clear liver function test at her eight month check. Vet checked her knees for LP and said they felt completely normal with no slipping. (No xrays however)

I talked to her breeder today, and she said she has no known cases of LP or LS in her lines. (She owned the parent pair and the grandparent pair on the female side as well.) I emailed Jetts breeder and she hasn't gotten back to me to ask any questions.

No neither of the pair has had their eyes tested.

I do hope to hear a fetal heartbeat with the doppler, if in fact we are with pups. That should give me a couple of weeks to get items ready. And yes, we are going to do xrays between 50-55 days. We are at day 33 now. I can have all the items needed for a whelp within a few days. But as soon as I hear fetal heart tones, I will start immediately getting supplies together.

Thanks so much for the info. It is nice to get such good information! I appreciate it!

[jerseyhairball]

typically most males do not reach maturity until 10 months. you may be lucky and not have a prego...hopefully! she may still show signs of pregnancy even if she is not. i have my fingers crossed for you that it is a false one

[Lil Sis]

I think you are approaching this in a very mature and "lets do this as right as I can" way. You are honest.
I think you "sort of" wanted to breed your female one day. I think you sound like someone who can handle that very well.
I think there is not anything wrong with breeding if it is done right, knowing the risk and the health of the dog is always put first.

Saying all that.. I don't know much about breeding. I wanted to breed my Remy, but I realized it was not for me at this time anyway. I had Remy spay-- so I would never have an up oh.. that maybe what you should do after this is over.

I wish you the best.... please keep us posted.

[Rhetts_mama]

I'm really shocked by some of the responses here. This wasn't an "oopsy" IMO. The OP had a dog in heat, allowed it around an uneutered male and after witnessing a tie, allowed them to be together for two more days. That's not an oops. That's someone who wanted to breed, age of the dogs be darned.

I hope things go well for the OP and her dogs, but I really don't see any reason for applauding her actions.

JMO. Go ahead and let me have it.

[Suze225]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

I'm really shocked by some of the responses here. This wasn't an "oopsy" IMO. The OP had a dog in heat, allowed it around an uneutered male and after witnessing a tie, allowed them to be together for two more days. That's not an oops. That's someone who wanted to breed, age of the dogs be darned.

I hope things go well for the OP and her dogs, but I really don't see any reason for applauding her actions.

JMO. Go ahead and let me have it.

You are very wrong in your statement. We DID try and prevent, I just didn't explain how, because it was irrelevant at this point. I will not try to make excuses.

I DID NOT at this time want to breed my dogs. At a future heat, possibly!! I will not lie. It has been something I have THOUGHT greatly about. And put a lot of research into. I have not had all of the genetic testing done and all of the other things that should be done. To be sure that this pair is WORTHY of breeding!!

IF in fact we do have pups, these babies will be going to family members. I will not make a DIME and will possibly go in the hole many thousands of dollars. I could not possibly sell a pup, that I don't know, within my best research and knowledge, that possibly isn't the quality that it should be. I would not do that to an unsuspecting buyer! I do not work that way.

I do not want appause. I just want advice from the best of the best to make sure we can do everything and anything possible to try to ensure that things go well.