A champion stud has the potential to sire 100's to even 1000 of pups in his lifetime because of his popularity. Where as the stud of a hobby breeder would be much less.

Why should the number matter? Even one sick pup is too many. Nor am I convinced that a hobby breeder would produce less.

It's not what you posted a few days ago.

I know some very famous exhibitor breeders that place their pet pups for $1,000.00. No differenciating from male or female and these are from Champion Sired and Champion Dam. Champions they Championed. But, then again their purpose to find the right homes for pups and I do know they've at placed not sold them,

But, that's neither here nor there. This person wants to know about breeding. No one told her she had show but, mentioned the Roving was going to be in her area and invited her to attend.

Yes, there are those that breed to the flavor of the month. However, if one is breeding correctly that is not how you establish a line. I will say that the breeders that know what they are doing will not do this and they as I do not allow their boys to be used for public studding.

Now, there are a few dogs out there that have put their stamp on many a wonderful line; Pastoral Johnnie handsome for one sired 60 Champions in the US alone.....however, he was only allowed to stud quality bitches owned by famous reputable breeders. Durrer's Tin Whistle is another......you find him in quite a few famous lines. Both of these boys did nothing to hurt the breed, but enhance it.

Great post Mary, I think many inexperienced breeders think that breeding their bitch to a winning stud will automatically improve their lines. Breeders who pass around their studs to anyone willing to pay the stud fee are no better than breeders whose primary purpose of breeding is making money. I know some breeders get angry when someone won't allow their stud to mate with their dogs, but this is a serious thing to the responsible breeder, and the results will affect the reputation of the stud's owner, as it should.

You're right Nancy, should something go wrong with the breeding the stud always take the brunt of the blame.

What did I say a few days ago that is contradictory to what I said here?

I am sure that there are wonderful show breeders that produce wonderful dogs. My comment was made in reply to this post.

The problem with forums, is someone will take one sentence out of context and make an issue out of it. There are people on here who have that practice down to a fine art.

I did not say "all" show breeders or "most" show breeders, or even "many" show breeders. But the popularity of a champion stud can produce 1000 or more pups in his lifetime, and if that dog happens to carry a bad gene, it will spread like wildfire.

TLC indicated that this would be done by people trying to make a fast buck where realistically it is more likely that a champion dog would spread a bad gene much more widely than a pet owner that just wants a litter of pups.

Well 1000 pups carrying that gene can produce many thousand more pups. With small hobby breeders, and one time pet breeders, most of those offspring are sold as pets. So although there might be a few dogs produced that carry the gene it will not spread as ffar and wide as a champion dog would.

Again my comment was made to this post. Which indicated that only hobby breeders or onetime pet breeders would spread a bad gene.

Please keep things in context and it will cause a lot less arguments on here. I made a very valid point.

I think you are missing the point that these are breeders who are trying to make a fast buck, and they aren't really fooling anybody, except other breeders who are trying to make a fast buck.

No one is trying to make an issue out of anything, I thought it would be helpful for you to know that this type of breeder who studs her dog out like this is not admired or looked upon favorably by reputable breeders. You are quite fast to pick out everything that bad show breeders do, but that's the point, they are bad breeders who show. Whether you show or not studding your dog out like this is a sign of a bad breeder.

I'm sorry that no one would give you a valid answer. I'm not a show person so I cannot answer all of your questions.

I do know that there are show breeders who will breed a female that is over 7 pounds if she has other show qualities, in hopes of getting a puppy that has her other qualities but is smaller. There is a lot more to breeding than there appears to be. The best thing to do is to find a good breeder to mentor you. And if you want to get into showing, go to shows and meet people and ask questions.

AGAIN my comment was in referenceto TLCs post. It does not have to be someone trying to make a fast buck. It could be a show breeder with a champion dog that is in popular demand. I did not say they would do it knowingly. I did not say they were bad. I did not say they would do it for money. Those are your words not mine.

Don't be so quick to look for negative. I made a valid point. the potential is much greater for a champion stud dog to spread his genes, both good and bad, far and wide, before anyone even knows there is a bad gene.

[QUOTE=JeanieK;3394323]Well 1000 pups carrying that gene can produce many thousand more pups. With small hobby breeders, and one time pet breeders, most of those offspring are sold as pets. So although there might be a few dogs produced that carry the gene it will not spread as ffar and wide as a champion dog would.

Again my comment was made to this post. Which indicated that only hobby breeders or onetime pet breeders would spread a bad gene.


QUOTE]


But it's an invalid assumption to make that all 1000 (and I still think that number is greatly exaggerated) pups would be breed worthy and then go on to breed even more sick pups. Those that were not considered breed or show worthy would be placed in pet homes on spay/neuter contracts. And to be very honest, I see a lot more hobby/backyard breeders who breed and sell without spay neuter contracts on their pups, so the potential for bad genes being spread is exponential. Either no breeding dog needs to be tested or they all do.

Isn't Hylan Acres one of those but yet she continues to breed and show Parti carriers from her line of dogs. Hylan acres is a member of the YTCA , Her sire produced Parti colored yorkies and this has been swept under the rug by the YTCA for 4 freaking years acting like they know nothing about it. Well they do, the YTCA continues to protect its own .They discriminate and they dictate.

The YTCA is a joke to all of us non members, they hide in their itty bitty forum and talk about us common folks

It seems the YTCA has no um rules as long as you can prove your innocent.
How freaking sad

Here comes the YTCA bashing again... This is getting predictable. What thread number will this make this week?

:gi39: MMMM cupcakes are good after :2popkorn:

I would think people purporting to improve the breed would want to stud their dogs out to those just starting out (breeding). Keeping the dog within a tight circle doesn't improve the breed overall, it just keeps a small circle of dogs within standard. People are going to breed their dogs whether people like it or not. There are many exceptional Yorkies (exceptional in health, looks, standard) that aren't owned by "famous" breeders. These dogs are also the ones that should be bred (keeping with the 'improve the breed' talk). Not everyone wants to show, has the time, etc., etc...the fact that their dog hasn't pranced around a show ring does not make that dog substandard but apparently it leaves those bitch owners left only to breed to a like male, which may or may not be substandard (by a lot or a little). It seems to me I hear (read) over and over again here that show breeders won't stud their dogs out to the non-show breeder. Are these breeders - again, purporting their desire to "improve the breed" - actually taking the time to evaluate these dogs before saying no or is no the pat response when the hear the dog has never been shown? If the latter is correct it seems mighty contradictory to me.
Not everyone wants to adopt a dog either. I do realize often times a quality dog is given up for people's personal reasons, but the average dog is given up because it is anti-social, sickly, vicious, etc (and no, it's not always the fault of the owner, like people, there are sometimes just bad dogs out there). People shouldn't be made to feel bad because they don't want to take on a dog that has problems (regardless of fault), telling someone who is thinking about breeding and trying to educate themselves should not be told to go adopt a dog, as clearly that's not what they want. Just seems silly to me, if someone isn't asking "where can I adopt a dog?" then why suggest something completely off the mark of the question.
The response that yes, one could breed a dog over 7 pounds if it's genetics/history/etc is taken into consider is an appropriate response.
I don't get it that's all. If someone asked, "do you like the color blue" and someone responds "Bananas are good to eat" --- people are left scratching their head...huh?

[quote=Rhetts_mama;3394356]I don't think too many people are lining up to breed their girls to a non champion stud.

The potential is much greater with a champion dog. And no assumption was made that all of those pups would be breedworthy, but certainly some of them would. Even if it was only 2% that would then put 20 more dogs out there and so on. The numbers with a non show dog would be much less.

But non if this is answering the OPs question.

Show dogs do not "prance" in the ring. Working the ring is a demonstration of temperament and extensive training, and physical structure and movement. Conformation is just as challenging as agility and obedience, in my humble pet owner opinion.

I really hope you get your question answered instead of being bashed for asking it. I personally believe the females should be big. I believe standard is up to 7 lbs, but I am not sure. I do know people thave have bred a 8 or 9 lb female with a 4 lb stud and they had puppies that grew to standard size. Then you have some that do that and end up with dogs way off standard, for instance I have a boy 14 lbs. I cant imagine someone breeding a female that size as it is far from standard. Guess it depends on just how big the female is and if you are following, breeding to standard. I would rather see someone breed an 8 lb female over a 4 lb female....that is just scary!

My boys, full brothers, different litters, are the product of a bitch who weighs 8 pounds and the sire weighs 6 pounds, 2 ounces.

While my two boys are on the larger end of the scale, 7 and 8 pounds, all of their littermates are much smaller.

As I have read here many times, it is all about knowing your lines backwards and forwards.

I don't see where the OP was bashed at all. It just seems that they wanted a straight "yes or no" answer and was told that it isn't that simple. But then, nothing about breeding is. I absolutely agree with you on the last part.

Then you evidently haven't checked out the various websites or newspaper adds for BYB's lately. The number of badly bred, sick dogs out there far out number the Championed dogs being studded out. And therefore, the overall number of sick dogs from the non-show breeders far exceeds the ones coming from the show breeders. But it goes back to the statement I made earlier: if you are truly concerned with the health of the Yorkie breed, either ALL breeding dogs need to be tested or none of them do. Which is it?

True, bashed wasnt the right word. I apologize. Just seems its hard to get a question answered around here sometimes. LOL :p

I need to read and catch up on these posts. I went to bed early last night.

I am researching my baby girl's background. I know of her lineage, but I need to get to the root of it. Such as her father. The owner wouldn't sell him for anything less than $5000.00. I need to study it and find out why he's worth so much. I plan to start digging into the histories. Then would come the testing, and I'd have a very knowledgeable person take a look at her composition, etc. Like I said i have a lot studying to do before I even consider breeding her. I am not interested in showing. I am only interested in getting a few puppies from her if she is a worthy breeder.

Thank you for answering my 1st question about her weight. The reason I asked this is because if she goes over 7 pounds, which she probably will, if that would completely disqualify her from the breed standard, then I wouldn't give it another thought and would get her spayed at 16 weeks.

I appreciate the straight forward answers. I need simple facts at this point. i am ONLY a beginner with Yorkies.

:thumbup::thumbup:

I have written almost this same thing several times.

Those who claim to want to "better the breed" should be helping the new breeders get quality dogs to start out. they should be willing to mentor any new breeder not just the next generation of show breeders. they should want to get as many quality dogs out there as possible.

If they are unwilling to do that, their interest is "bettering their own dogsf" not the entire breed.

Those who want to breed are going to breed regardless of what they are told. So why not mentor them and help them to evaluate dogs teach them what makes an ethical breeder, just like you would a potential show person.

IMO that would be showing that your interest is in the entire population of yorkies and not just those in the show ring.

I didn't feel bashed. I only felt overwhelmed and small. I just wanted a simple yes or no. Not a lecture. No hard feelings. No worries!

I agree that all should be.

:thumbup:

That isw all you got out of her entire post? :rolleyes:

I believe you took the word too literally, she could have used to word "paraded" or "waltzed" it's just a figure of speach.

But I think all yorkies "prance"