Testing puppies prior to new homes

[Brooklynn]

For BAT testing I follow Dr. Center's protocol on the YTCA.org website. I believe the Health Foundation hasn't updated their information on their website as if you know the new protocol the next paragraph in on the Health Foundation website it states fasting and fasting is no longer required per Dr. Center's new protocol.
I, as a breeder will hang on to my puppies until 6 months of age so when I do have a pet quality yorkie it will leave my house with up to date shots, BAT testing and spayed/neutered before leaving my home

Donna

[magicgenie]

The BAT testing is a good idea, and I've got questions of timing, and what happens if one tests high. Seems 12 weeks is too young, and Mardelin recommends 16 weeks & again at 6 months. Why twice? Somewhere I read 6 months is the level of maturity for a reliable reading. Finally, what happens if an anymptomatic puppy tests mildly elevated. The case I have in mind is fasting .5 and post prandial 61. No, this did not come out of my breeding but I do own a young one in this situation, won't be bred, obviously, but wondering what to do next.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

The BAT testing is a good idea, and I've got questions of timing, and what happens if one tests high. Seems 12 weeks is too young, and Mardelin recommends 16 weeks & again at 6 months. Why twice? Somewhere I read 6 months is the level of maturity for a reliable reading. Finally, what happens if an anymptomatic puppy tests mildly elevated. The case I have in mind is fasting .5 and post prandial 61. No, this did not come out of my breeding but I do own a young one in this situation, won't be bred, obviously, but wondering what to do next.

16 weeks gives in my opinion a prelim result and at 6 months a more accurate result. With an external shunt it will normally show up in a yorkie under 1 year of age. Signs can start showing as young as 16 weeks of age.

How old is the one with elevated post bats? My next option would be the Protein C test to rule out shunt and then go from there. If the Protein C test ruled out shunt then I would treat as an MVD yorkie and they can be controled by diet and meds. Consult your vet first. But I would request an Protein C test as it's not invassive.

Donna

[magicgenie]

Several places I've read this test is inaccurate, appears to have been abandoned by many. I'm not seeing the point of the 16 weeks BAT if the picture can change at 6 months. I agree with repeating the test to confirm the original result, but what next? Protein C sounded like a godsend until people started saying it was unreliable. How much testing in too much on a completely healthy looking animal with all other blood values normal? Also, is the unfortunate puppy with the elevated BAT no longer saleable, to be given away as defective goods? Please don't pounce as I know some of you will find the question unspeakably mercenary, but it's an honest one. Do some normal ones have high BATs or are they ALL considered sick?

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by magicgenie
The BAT testing is a good idea, and I've got questions of timing, and what happens if one tests high. Seems 12 weeks is too young, and Mardelin recommends 16 weeks & again at 6 months. Why twice? Somewhere I read 6 months is the level of maturity for a reliable reading. Finally, what happens if an anymptomatic puppy tests mildly elevated. The case I have in mind is fasting .5 and post prandial 61. No, this did not come out of my breeding but I do own a young one in this situation, won't be bred, obviously, but wondering what to do next.

The 16 weeks and again at 6 months are Dr. Center's timelines from her protocol, not mine

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

16 weeks gives in my opinion a prelim result and at 6 months a more accurate result. With an external shunt it will normally show up in a yorkie under 1 year of age. Signs can start showing as young as 16 weeks of age.

How old is the one with elevated post bats? My next option would be the Protein C test to rule out shunt and then go from there. If the Protein C test ruled out shunt then I would treat as an MVD yorkie and they can be controled by diet and meds. Consult your vet first. But I would request an Protein C test as it's not invassive.

Donna

Donna,

Fasting is no longer recommended by Dr. Center's, correct?

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

Several places I've read this test is inaccurate, appears to have been abandoned by many. I'm not seeing the point of the 16 weeks BAT if the picture can change at 6 months. I agree with repeating the test to confirm the original result, but what next? Protein C sounded like a godsend until people started saying it was unreliable. How much testing in too much on a completely healthy looking animal with all other blood values normal? Also, is the unfortunate puppy with the elevated BAT no longer saleable, to be given away as defective goods? Please don't pounce as I know some of you will find the question unspeakably mercenary, but it's an honest one. Do some normal ones have high BATs or are they ALL considered sick?

I haven't heard the Protein C testing being abandoned at all. That is a place I'd start and recommend to start. If not satisfied then I'd do the stignigraphy (misspelled) if in doubt as it is accurate. The Protein C test is not a waste of time and if less evassive. Normal blood test results can be shown on a dog with elevated BATS. You'd have to do what your conscience would allow you with a known illness in a puppy you sell or place. I would at least place the puppy the cost of a spay/neuter.

Donna

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Donna,

Fasting is no longer recommended by Dr. Center's, correct?

correct

[gemy]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

Several places I've read this test is inaccurate, appears to have been abandoned by many. I'm not seeing the point of the 16 weeks BAT if the picture can change at 6 months. I agree with repeating the test to confirm the original result, but what next? Protein C sounded like a godsend until people started saying it was unreliable. How much testing in too much on a completely healthy looking animal with all other blood values normal? Also, is the unfortunate puppy with the elevated BAT no longer saleable, to be given away as defective goods? Please don't pounce as I know some of you will find the question unspeakably mercenary, but it's an honest one. Do some normal ones have high BATs or are they ALL considered sick?

How much testing is too much? Each of us will have a different barometer on how we measure that answer. I'm a very conservative person, who believes that forwarned is forarmed. As such I would go with Protein C, then scintography, see what those results show. If pup has a suspected liver shunt, and or MVD, the earlier you begin to treat for same, the better impact you will have on the overall long term health of the puppy.
With high post BAT, I would keep that pup past 6mths of age, retest, see what the answer is, but in all good conscience if I were to let that puppy go, it would be with full discloser to prospective owner and it would be placed either free or charge or at the most cost of spay and neuter.

In terms of LP physical examination is fine to determine existence of LP, but I would want XRAY and it evaluated by a specialist. I'd want to know the exact degree of LP, if there are any other anomalies on the articulating surfaces, ie the femoral condyles, the tibial plateau, the fibular In Yorkies that are not being shown or bred, I would do at 18 months the Xray, but earlier of course for the physical exam. With a detailed analysis of structural integrity and congruity, a better exercise program can be designed for this pup.

In pet dogs CERF would in my opinion only be done if there is clinical evidence of blindness. then referral to opthmalogist to determine causation, and results sent to breeder.

[straightsilk]

The age for OFA cert on Legg-Perthes is 12 months, not 18 months and not two years.

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Legg-Calve-Perthes

Are any of you getting this certification?

[smepperson]

Originally Posted by cally930

But if most breeders sell off their puppies at 12 weeks - isn't the bile acid test and the OFA testing, then useless. The OP was (correct me if I'm wrong) asking what tests should be done prior to puppies going to their new homes.

Actually that is a two edge sword. Some breeders do and some don't - this has been my experience through finding our little one. From what I understand, the protocols for what breeders should test for are debated and are just recommendations. I am sure someone can correct me if I am wrong about this but I spoke with only one YTCA breeder who does complete testing including the genetic dna on parents. The others did not, including bile acid. The one that did complete testing also wanted $25 - 2800 dollars for one of her pups. I am not saying it is not worth it but we were looking for a companion, not a show pup or stud and we are very responsible, loving parents who's hearts were broken. Our Gizzy did not have genetic problems ~ his came with aging, however after 7 months of heartache and knowing the inevitable outcome we wanted to be extra careful in our choice for aquiring our newest family addition. Gizmo was a gift to me from a dear friend and she purchased him from a pet store ~ now that I know better my husband and I would never do that again besides the fact that there is no way that anyone could get that lucky twice! Gizmo was an amazing being♥


My reason for wanting one done is mainly to have a head's up but if there is the possibility of false positives at this age, we may wait until he is of age for his neutering - about 2 mos. (btw...what about that? 6 mos old for neutering? Not too young for anesthesia?) We went the route of a responsible, YTCA breeder so that we would know the history of the parents etc. There are no problems in the line that I am aware of and I believe our breeder to be highly reputable. My veterinarian already thinks I'm crazy and neurotic and asking about the test associated with CHIC cinched it for her I think. She basically told me that most of the tests were unecessary for Teddi unless we were thinking of breeding or showing him but she will do whatever test I want done to reassure me. I do believe the CBC is a must and he will be having that at our appointment next week. We are not sorry that we may have to have these tests done ourselves; we consider it part of the cost of being blessed enough to have a YTCA member entrust us with part of thier family.


My hubby and I value the input of all members here. We have learned much more than we already knew and we thought we knew. YT has been a blessing as have all of the amazing breeders and admins.

Thank you all! ♥

[smepperson]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

For BAT testing I follow Dr. Center's protocol on the YTCA.org website. I believe the Health Foundation hasn't updated their information on their website as if you know the new protocol the next paragraph in on the Health Foundation website it states fasting and fasting is no longer required per Dr. Center's new protocol.
I, as a breeder will hang on to my puppies until 6 months of age so when I do have a pet quality yorkie it will leave my house with up to date shots, BAT testing and spayed/neutered before leaving my home

Donna

Hi Donna ~ Since Teddi is so close to neutering age (4mos) shouldn't I just wait to do the BAT right before he is neutered? Also Teddi does have all of his shots and is very healthy but should we have any additional testing done at this time? Legg Perthes? I thought that was rare but am willing to do any testing that Teddi may need to insure he stays happy and healthy. Even if something were very wrong at this point we are already attached and would not even consider returning him. Thankfully he is healthy and happy at he moment and loves us (I think)

Thank you for the information on the Health Foundation. I did not see a link to Dr. Center. Is that on the YTCA site as well?

Thank you for your help...

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by smepperson

Hi Donna ~ Since Teddi is so close to neutering age (4mos) shouldn't I just wait to do the BAT right before he is neutered? Also Teddi does have all of his shots and is very healthy but should we have any additional testing done at this time? Legg Perthes? I thought that was rare but am willing to do any testing that Teddi may need to insure he stays happy and healthy. Even if something were very wrong at this point we are already attached and would not even consider returning him. Thankfully he is healthy and happy at he moment and loves us (I think)

Thank you for the information on the Health Foundation. I did not see a link to Dr. Center. Is that on the YTCA site as well?

Thank you for your help...

When you have your Teddi nuetered; preop blood work will be performed, your first line of defense as this will identify abnormalities.

Six months is the recommended protocol, I provided a link to Dr. Center's protocol. http://ytca.org/health_ongoingstudies.html follow it through.

Good for you in taking the necessary measures to ease your mind.

Leggs Perthes is a disease that will manifest itself at the approximate age of 7 to 9 months of age. X-ray can reveal the problem.

[gemy]

[QUOTE=Mardelin;3351473]When you have your Teddi nuetered; preop blood work will be performed, your first line of defense as this will identify abnormalities.

Six months is the recommended protocol, I provided a link to Dr. Center's protocol. Health Ongoing Studies follow it through.

Good for you in taking the necessary measures to ease your mind.

Leggs Perthes is a disease that will manifest itself at the approximate age of 7 to 9 months of age. X-ray can reveal the problem.[/QUOTE]

I think it is that Xray will confirm the clinical manifestations of the very overt problem this pup has in movement.

I think for Teddi, that if his movement is good I would hold off vs a vs Leggs Perthe, but then again, if he is going under for a spay, why not do hip/knees/elbow xrays just to see what you have. All this of course if pre op blood work is normal.

[Mardelin]

[quote=gemy;3351492]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

When you have your Teddi nuetered; preop blood work will be performed, your first line of defense as this will identify abnormalities.

Six months is the recommended protocol, I provided a link to Dr. Center's protocol. Health Ongoing Studies follow it through.

Good for you in taking the necessary measures to ease your mind.

Leggs Perthes is a disease that will manifest itself at the approximate age of 7 to 9 months of age. X-ray can reveal the problem.[/QUOTE]

I think it is that Xray will confirm the clinical manifestations of the very overt problem this pup has in movement.

I think for Teddi, that if his movement is good I would hold off vs a vs Leggs Perthe, but then again, if he is going under for a spay, why not do hip/knees/elbow xrays just to see what you have. All this of course if pre op blood work is normal.

I agree Gail. X-ray at that time would be the least invasive.