Breeding non-AKC
 

I've been reading a lot of posts on here educating myself but I didn't see these questions asked. Hopefully someone can help!:)

Why do people only stress breeding AKC yorkies only? I understand that more AKC dogs are the "breeding quality" than the rest, but for dogs registered into different registries or no registries at all, wouldn't they also have breeding quality yorkies as well? As much as one cannot state that every AKC yorkie is a show quality dog, one cannot reject a non-registered dog for breeding when it may be a quality, healthy dog that can also help improve the breed. so I am also confused on why AKC does not allow a dog to register as AKC if it meets the AKC standards of that certain breed unless the parents are both AKC's.:confused: Or is it that a healthy, quality yorkie cannot ever be born under pet quality yorkies?

Also, I've read here that studs become less pet quality after breeding. Is there any change with females?

In breeders' houses with many unneutered nor spayed yorkies, how do the breeders keep the females from becoming pregnant? do they have to constantly watch for the females heat in session and keep the male yorkies physically away?

Thank you!

I'm no breeder, but I think I can answer at least one of your questions.
The AKC alone does not stand for quality, as you've already stated. However, they are the only registry that keeps accurate records of purebred dogs. Registries like the CKC (continental not canadian) will register anything with 4 legs as whatever breed you want it to be. Even if a dog looks like a yorkie, it may not be purebred. If it's mixed with say, maltese, a dog can still look 100% yorkie.

For ex., my bf's family have 2 morkies (yorkie maltese mixes) and one of them looks like a "silky" coated black and tan yorkie. He's adorable with his long hair, erect ears, and pretty convincing colors. I could register him with CKC, or APRI as a purebred yorkie without any issues. Then I could stud him out as a papered "purebred." One of his offspring may turn out to look nothing like a yorkie, it may even be all white. See where it gets messy?

While the AKC is not perfect, it keeps better records. As far as confirmation, I would trust the YTCA. They are the ones that set the standard for the Yorkshire Terrier. As far as health goes, that responsibility falls on a breeders shoulders. If they are ethical responsible breeders, they will learn all that there is to know about that breed of dogs, yorkies in this case, learn about genetics and how to breed for the betterment of the breed. They will know what medical tests would help them breed quality yorkies. Their ethics and integrity are on the line with each and every litter. It really isn't that easy to be a breeder, in my honest opinion.

:thumbup: And don't forget ACA either. :thumbdown They don't even require a photo of the dog, just your word and check made out in their name. how do i know? I did it as an uneducated dog owner. *in hindsight, hanging head in shame*

Succinctly yes. Breeders will always be watching for their un neutered females to go in heat, they track their heats as well, so they do know after the first few heats when that female is expected to come into heat. Some males can forecast upto a month early when a female will come into heat. Un neutered males are kept physically apart 100% of the time from any female in heat. Use of crates, separate levels in a home or rooms, facilitate this. They are fed and exercised separately etc.

Are you planning on breeding or just wondering?

Thank you for your replies. That must be hard work keeping them separated under one roof every time females are in heat!

DvlishAngel985: So you are saying that, although ACA or APRI or non-registered dogs may seem to meet the standards of a quality yorkie, because its lineage cannot be traced there may be complications? What if a CKC breeder had been breeding their CKC puppies for years, and they never had any health complications? Does that still make him a bad breeder because he is not breeding AKC dogs?

wv~ yorkies: I don't intend on breeding. I was just curious on why everyone stressed AKC dogs for breeding only after reading the forums, and why breeders were unhappy or seemed annoyed with those who wanted to breed their dogs for their own household (not selling for profit, will keep for themselves, will neuter/spay the puppies) just because they liked their dogs look and had no health issues.

Thank you for your replies! I'm definitely learning a lot from this forum.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I mentioned coat color as an example, I never mentioned health. And yes you're right, it's true that their could be health problems if that's what is hidden in the breeding pair's DNA. All I was trying to say was that when a person breeds an unregistered, ACA, CKC (non-canadian), or APRI dogs, they truly do not have a clue what they are breeding, even if the breeding pair is healthy. Down the line of what they think are purebreds, there will be some random gene expression that they weren't expecting. For example, if a non-educated breeder takes any breeding pair that look like yorkies, and continue to do so with the same pair or even off springs, down the line there might be a dog that looks like a poodle instead of a yorkie. Why? Because that was part of one of the parents genetic makeup. Next thing you know, you'll have pups with "hello kitty" faces, bug eyes, wrong markings, etc, etc, etc.


The label bad breeding is what a person earns on his/her own. It has nothing to do with the type of dog they have. However, if anyone is serious about breeding, is it really that hard to just start searching for a mentor? To start picking up books on the breed and absorbing the information? Is it hard to want to do the very best you can to assure that the bitch, stud, and puppies will all be healthy? Just asking.

I agree with you to an extent. I don't think that you can automatically label a dog as being a 'lesser quality' simply because of the registry. Nor do I think the registry alone determines if a dog is of a quality that should be bred.

I can, however, understand the AKC's reasons for not accepting dogs registered with these other organizations. Are all breeders of other registries dishonest? No, but many are. If the AKC registered them, they would be putting their name on the line by assuming the responsibility for guaranteeing the line of those dogs.

As for behavioral changes in breeding females, I assume it varies from dog to dog, but I have found sometimes females tend to be a bit more protective and territorial after having been bred. I have one who became less 'friendly' and tolerant of other dogs afterwards.

Yes it is work, but the alternative is really really not wanted by a reputable breeder. that being your bitch being accidentally bred. Breeders study pedigrees and plan their breeding carefully. Plus an unsupervised breeding can be dangerous to the bitch or the stud.

Not "bad breeding", bad breeder. I need to proof read. A bad breeder is a bad breeder because of what he she does, not because of his or her dogs or the registry they choose.

Another reason NOT to breed from those other registeries is thta by doing so and continuing to send them registration money for litters and puppies, you are contributing to the very organizations started by puppymills and ousted AKC breeders who were either unwilling to comply with record keeping requirements or were ousted for bad breeding practices. These miscontents and banned breeders set up their own registeries so they could still call their dogs/puppies registered -- that was the only reason -- not to keep detailed records of breeding history, not to help in refining and improving breeds, not to help educate the public on dog care, breeding, and health -- but just to put $$$ in their filthy pockets. I would NEVER send a dime to those registeries!

I have a wonderful little male who is and always has been my pet first but who has also sired two amazing litters. He has not lost any of his affectionate, sweet ways. Ben is my loving baby boy even if he is daddy to 9 pups! We did have a time of him marking for a while after the second litter. Last puppy that we had was a male. I thought we might even keep him for a while, but the two did not get along and tried to out mark each other. I finally placed him as I had with the other pups and Ben no longer marks in the house. whew!

Yes about keeping males & femals part when the girl is in heat. You do have to physically keep them apart. The males are so relentless during the week of most fertility that NOTHING will stop them put physically separating them. I saw that same sweet little Ben turn into a sex-crazed maniac during the potent week -- I could never leave the house unless someone else was there to guard. I was afraid he would try to break through a door. When I was home with them, I put a doggy diaper on my girl and then covered her with a newborn onesie -- but even that was not good enough during the "week." I had to keep her out of Ben's site. Even so, he would pant and act half-crazy. Not pleasant! Even when you are breeding that cycle, you have to do this for most of the time as you do not want them breeding indescriminately, only when you decide and are there to watch over. They can hurt each other and if they do it too many times, the male will deplete his sperm count and if he happens to hit the most fertile days with a low count, it is not as good of a mating. So, you want to time and guard their encounters.

I can't verify the true reasons for "why" these alternate registries were founded and I can't testify to the inner workings of every one of them, but to imply that none of them contribute positively to the dog world is completely untrue. Many of these alternate registries host various events and seminars too. That's definitely a positive attribute. Having attended quite a few of them myself over the years, it was my observation that they most certainly promoted the ethics, both in regards to breeding and responsible pet ownership that most of us preach about on here all the time.

I never allowed my males and females together...they had separate play yards and separate indoor spaces...learned the hard way many years ago when I had two accidental breedings...neither bitch showed any physical signs of heat...no bleeding or swelling..still have no clue how the males bred with them.

They may well have some education at shows now but my comments were as to why they were started -- note: "These miscontents and banned breeders set up their own registeries so they could still call their dogs/puppies registered -- that was the only reason -- not to keep detailed records of breeding history, not to help in refining and improving breeds, not to help educate the public on dog care, breeding, and health -- but just to put $$$ in their filthy pockets. " everything I listed was what they were not setting up their own registeries for initially.

I don't doubt some good people have tried to make them more effective over the years but I cannot put aside why they were started in the first place, are still run by many of those same people, the fact that they service such a HUGE portion of the puppymills (and yes I know some mills sell AKC but you will find most are non-AKC), and that they continue to allow registration of mixed breed and dogs with questionable histories. Their practices of registering so easily still PROMOTES unethical breeding in my opinion. Don't keep records, your girl gets impregnated from unknown dogs? No problem they have a way to get "papers."

No way is AKC perfect, but I think it is the absolute best choice available.

I know there are good folks who unfortunately are in these other registeries. I would not have one word against those breeders, if they are doing everything else right. I still cannot in any way justify supporting the registeries themselves.

It wouldn't shock me...where exactly can I find those statistics?

You could try the USDA as most mills are licensed with the USDA.

I'll try this again -- did not mean to post that before I was done but I had to leave the computer for a bit and evidently hit reply....
You could try the USDA as most mills are licensed with the USDA. But I doubt anyone has those particular statistics because most puppymills and BYBs claim to be reputable breeders until they are caught in such blatant violations the law steps in and takes their dogs.

This site says APR is the most used puppymill registry: Why Choose a COE Breeder? I have read some from their site before as I like the way they run the registration -- they register no dogs from pet stores, mills, etc...It is a closed registry. There are a few other dog breed clubs doing this as well but they seem to be the more rare breeds (Pointing Griffin for example). I would love to see the Yorkshire Terrier breed have a closed registry so that we could put some health restrictions on breeding.

I am going mostly on what I see and read. When I was allowing myself to go into pet stores that sold dogs & cats, I was seeing mostly ACA, APR and CKC here. Most of the YT members that have problems and find their dogs came from a mill, seem to say they are registered with non-AKC registries. Since the whole history of the other registries tells me the puppymills were their main founders -- stands to reason, most of them will be non-AKC. Although a great many operate with dual-registeries so that they can claim to be an AKC kennel, but they have the back up registery in case they get caught when DNA shows the wrong parents are listed on papers, or AKC inspections wind up banning them.

The AKC is also the only non-profit registery. (according to wikipedia). In 2006 they actually entered into a contract with Petland (supplied by the Hunte corporation -- biggest pet store supplier of puppies) but they bowed to the the instant disapproval of dog enthusiasts and rescinded that contract. So -- like I said, they are not perfect but since they are non-profit, they are more likely to bow out of the puppymill business than the other registries. Unfortunately, I am sure there are still plenty of mills using AKC dams & sires. But I think most of the worst offenders are being weeded out. They know that too -- that is why the border-line mills are using the double-registry trick to protect their backsides.

AKC is the biggest registry, so they still have a lot of AKC dogs in mills. I think the more notable numbers to look for would be the percentage of the registry that ARE puppymill and BYB dogs. We won't ever see those numbers in writing as most BYB claim they are not and even most puppymills like to try to pretend to be reputable breeders. So, it is something you have to gleen from talking with other pet owners and reading what is available -- mostly educated guesses. Maybe I should not have said most puppymill dogs are registered with one of the non-AKC registries but that most puppymills utilize a non-AKC registry. They may also have some AKC dogs -- but more than likely even those will have dual registration.

There are so many logical ways to see that AKC registration is preferable. For instance -- the offshoot registries will register any AKC registered dogs but the AKC will NOT register dogs from the other registries.

AKC has requirements for DNA testing when a dog is used a number of times in breeding -- the other registries have no such requirement.

AKC does not register dogs with photos, affadavits, or 2 vet letters -- they require AKC lineage. With other registries, it can be easy to get a mixed breed into their books as a purebred.

I have seen some beautiful dogs from non-AKC registries. But sometimes I wonder if those are the result of someone selling a dog with limited registration, and then the owner just circumvented the system and turned around and sent in for the non-AKC registration so they could breed even though the original seller had specifically NOT wanted that to happen. Some of those limited registration dogs may be carriers of genetic problems, faults, or the owner just did not want any Tom/Dick/Harry breeding their line. So that is one more reason against the non-AKC registries. I could probably keep typing reasons all night, but I am getting tired and need to get off here.

Many years ago I got my first Yorkie and met this elderly woman who had alittle AKC fella and a few females. She also had acouple poodles and boston terriers. I was ignorant of any ethical standards and thought everyone was honest with their dogs. She took me under her wing and taught me alot about breeding, whelping and the breed...but then again I knew NOTHING to start. Anyway after a time my girl came into her second heat and I bred with her male which produced 4 boys. I was terrified when I saw the color and thought my baby had somehow made contact with a Doberman! Ruth helped me out and sent in for the litter registration and had it mailed to her house- she said because she had the stud.(?):confused: When they came back I found out she had register 7 pups and had papers for them. When I questioned her about it she told me sometimes she comes across dogs who have no papers that are true yorkies and this way she can register them. Being young and naive I never reported it...but I never bred with her dog again. That was 25 yrs ago and things have changed, thank God but I'm sure there are still unreputable breeders out there, AKC and otherwise. Unless you know your yorkie people well, you really dont know.:aimeeyork

Years ago I had heard of breeders doing that same thing. I imagine that is one reason AKC starting requiring the DNA testing. There will always be cheaters that just try to beat the system. I think many unreputable breeders use registries other than AKC so they can deceive people.

I have not seen United Kennel Club discussed (forgive me if I missed it). The UKC is almost as old as AKC. I used to consider them as a registry for hunting and sporting dogs but, if you go to a show, you will see all breeds.
I know of quite a few AKC judges that register their dogs, show and judge in the UKC. In fact, 2 of those judges are Yorkshire Terrier breeders. One of them judged the sweeps at the Specialty a few years ago.

I enjoy UKC shows. I love to see my Yorkies doing Go To Ground (the job they were bred to do) and terrier racing.

It is important to do your homework. There are good and bad breeders in all registries.

I have attended a few UKC shows. I saw some nice dogs there, and the environment at the shows I was at, was quite a bit more relaxed than AKC or CKC. I have a few breeder/friends that do show in UKC, but in the working breed.

My concern, which of course is only applicable to the minority of would be exhibitors is that UKC does not allow Professional Handlers, and for various physcial reasons, I can no longer show my own working breed.

I was at one show to do a Dock Diving event with my blackie, we had great fun there. I am considering training in the weight pull. but in Canada we do not have many UKC events, so overnight travel is necessary most often to attend UKC shows. I went to one in Kalamazoo Michigan.

isnt it true though that AKC is registering dogs from CKC, ect now? I remember seeing a thread about it. Let me see if I can find it...

That is no problem at a UKC show - grab a Junior. They love to show and are usually at ringside waiting for someone to hand them a dog. Go to the entry desk and ask someone.

I show my dogs in the AKC but I have found that the UKC is a great place to learn how to show and to train dogs. Weight pull is great for conditioning show dogs. I am always amazed when I see a dog pulling 9,000 lbs. The dogs seem to be having such a great time. I love to watch my dogs, in full coat, running through the tunnel doing GTG or racing.

There are some really nice people in the Michigan area that show Yorkies in the UKC and AKC. I will be glad to put you in touch with them.

haha! I found it!

For a dog with papers from a non-AKC accepted domestic registry
AKC has a new program where we are researching pedigrees of dogs that do not have AKC paperwork to determine if the dog comes from AKC registrable stock.
In order to determine AKC registration eligibility, you will need to send AKC a copy of your dog’s pedigree, registration application and/or registration certificate from another registry. You can also submit documentation provided by the breeder such as a contract or bill of sale. The dog may qualify for registration if the pedigree shows no break in AKC lineage and the dogs in the pedigree originate from AKC registrable stock.
Should the dog be deemed registrable, AKC staff will register the dog in question for $30. All late fees will be waived.
When you submit your paperwork, please include your name and phone number. You can submit the paperwork in one of three ways:[LIST=1][*]Fax the information to 919-816-3770. Mark it attn: Registry Research.[*]Email images to altreg@akc.org. Place Registry Research in the subject line[*]Mail to:

AKC Registry Research
Attn: Special Services
8051 Arco Corporate Drive Suite 100
Raleigh, NC 27617

See the bolded print. This is for dogs that have AKC lineage, but that weren't registered with AKC by the breeders for whatever reason. You have to have their AKC pedigree and I *think* the breeder has to approve it to. (Not sure about that second part.)
But it is NOT valid for dogs registered with other registries that do not have a history of an AKC lineage.

Thank you so much. But if I can't show my dogs, and their rule is owners must show their dogs, and yes I know you can get a 'volunteer" to show your dog on this or that day, but that is a different thing, for an owner that knows that 90% of the time they would not be able to show their dog, it seems like to me dishonest to rely on volunteers to show their dog for them. It is a hole if you will in the UKC rules.

BTW I'm not putting my Yorkies in weight pull but my BRT;s.:D For my Yorkie I could probably on my worst day muddle through in the ring.

I still am able to compete in obedience, and sometimes agility. I take it day by day with my condition.

Oh... See! This is why I love YT!:D There is a lady here in Utah that sells her pups CKC but says for an extra fee, she will tell you the "secret way" of getting them registered AKC.... Man, some people will always try to scam people for a buck wont they??? Sheesh... I sent an email to AKC about this lady, but I doubt it will do much.

She sounds like a real winner! NOT! Yeah, I definitely wouldn't be giving her the time of day!:thumbdown

nope, I even posted an Ad on the site she was advertising on recommending anyone thinking about buying a puppy, come here first... hehehehe, I am apparently feeling impish today!

You are asking excellent questions. AKC decided to put the pressure on puppy mills and backyard breeders to clean up conditions, keep better records and DNA frequently used sires. AKC Inspectors, when inspecting kennels look for what they call "Care and Conditions". If those standards are not met action is taken against the breeder and or kennel. That action is in the form of fines, suspension or intervention by local authorities.

Alternative registries appeared when this policy was instituted. These registries have no requirements that breeders must meet. And registering with them is basically it's an extremely bad reference for the breeder. Why have these breeders left AKC? They keep dogs in very bad conditions. They don't want to keep records or positively identify dogs and puppies. They breed mutts and want to register them so the unsuspecting buyers think they're something more than what they are, mixed breed puppies. And they don't want to pay the registration fees.

Just a few more things to think about