Researching the Pedigree - YorkieTalk.com Forums

cally930 · 09-20-2010, 08:08 AM

I have read over and over again about researching the pedigree. If you have the paperwork from AKC and it tells you who their sire, dam are and it goes back 3 maybe 5 generations - what does that tell you. It gives you a name - but how do you research? And what is it that you are looking for when you do?

cally930 · 09-20-2010, 12:33 PM

No one??? Any one???

magicgenie · 09-21-2010, 02:57 AM

As you progress in your reading and discussions on the Yorkshire Terrier you will come to know the big names today's good pedigrees are built on. If you have a have a well bred dog you should be able to learn quite a lot about the accomplishments of the ancestors in an internet search.

BamaFan121s · 09-21-2010, 04:40 AM

You should be looking for established lines within the pedigree. Then, do research on that breeder(s). What have they accomplished within their breeding program? Are their any CH on the pedigree? How many generations back? Research and find out if those lines have any known health issues. Look to see if there has been any line breeding within the dogs lines, etc. Check to see if the breeders of the dogs listed are USDA registered? Research and see if they have had any complaints filed against them. Contact AKC and see if they are in good standing.

cally930 · 09-21-2010, 07:09 AM

OK - so by saying to research - it all comes back to the breeders you got your sire and dams from.

Now....how would you research the dog's health. Would the breeders actually tell you if one of their ancestors had ...........let's say LS or LP? Can this info be found anywhere other than from the breeder themselves. I know that there are certifications issued by OFA and CERF - but do all breeders test? From previous threads - I think not. Line breeding??? is this a good thing or a bad thing? And why an established line - what would that tell you, other than the same breeder bred their ancestors.

Sorry - a lot of questions - but as you can probably tell - I really want to research and learn everything I can on this breed. Although I have raised yorkies for about 25 years now, it appears from this site that I really don't know anything! But I have learned a lot - and want to continue learning. Any feedback would be appreciated. And thanks for the feedback, so far. Very interesting.

BamaFan121s · 09-21-2010, 07:29 AM

Not just the breeders you got the dam and sire from, but the breeders of the dogs before that too. Genetics goes back past just the dam and sire.

Hmmm...it's kind of hard to explain...
The more established and well known a line is, the more likely you will be able to find information. A well established line will be producing more uniform, predictable dogs. (not because of their experience/knowledge) but becase they have selectively bred their dogs over multiple generations.
You ask around...it maybe common knowledge among those who've been immersed in the breed for a while that XYZ line throws small dogs or ABC's line has had LS pop up. The characteristics of their dogs starts to become more and more uniform...size, color, topline, sets, AND genetic issues.
Yes, contact the breeders, other owners of dogs they've produced, vets, do research and see if they have an titles, etc.

As far as "line breeding," could be a good or bad thing, depending on the breeder. Breeders should know their lines very well and line breed to bring out specific aspects. IMO, it's something that should only be done WITHIN well established lines by someone who really knows what they are doing. NOT by someone who skipped a generation and bred back immediately, generally to try to get smaller sizes (which rarely works like they intended).

For example, lets say there's a long line of BamaFan's Line of Made Ups on your dams side....say it fans out from grandam/sire on to the previous 4 gens. You do research and discover that BamaFan's line is known to have very strait toplines and occasional diagnosed LS. Chances are good, that because there is so much of that line in the pedigree, that chances of it showing up in yours would be good.
Now, try to imagine figuring that out without that 4 gen of strong, well known lines to factor in. Instead of having an answer, something well established and long proven, you have to try to figure it out for, say 10 breeding pairs, all from different breeders.

(I hope someone else can give a better explanation.)

Lorraine · 09-21-2010, 07:46 AM

The many years established show breeder will be producing a fairly consistent type. If you look at their pedigrees you will see that the dogs and bitches in that pedigree are many of that kennel name rather than a mish mash of a lot of different kennel names.
An established breeder will also have an idea of waht health issues have arisen in their line and because they are using dogs of other established lines to compliment their breeding program, they also have a pretty good idea of what those other lines will carry or not.
As show breeders do all talk to each other, or at least the ones I deal with do, yes information is shared to each other about what they have seen, had trouble with , or not.
It really is a whole different scenario from someone who is just buying a dog here, a bitch there, breeding them with no clue of pedigrees, what is behind the pedigree. This type of scenario will usually mean that the dog and bitch they have bought came from a similar type of breeder. Or coming from someone making sort of attempts at showing maybe the odd champion, but certainly no established show breeder would show an interest in what they might have to sell.
Kind of like the blind leading the blind, no consistent type in the puppies produced, a real risk of issues and problems, often start looking so much less like yorkies as the generations continue of basically using pet quality to produce puppies with the breeder not really knowing the difference.

BamaFan121s · 09-21-2010, 07:49 AM

See...now how come it makes so much more sense when someone else explains it?

cally930 · 09-21-2010, 07:52 AM

Thank you again for your response - I really appreciate all the information you have provided me so far.

Now, is it possible to get all this information from the actual breeder - let's say that there is an established line. Will the actual breeder honestly give you the faults? Or - by saying research - it is intended that you make contacts - and simply - ask around? Is it that you have to just be out there and become familiar with the well established lines in order to learn their dog's pros and cons. In all honestly for me - research has always been a written form - this seems to me that you have to go to the shows and make connections and ask around. Is there any other way?

BamaFan121s · 09-21-2010, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cally930

Now, is it possible to get all this information from the actual breeder - let's say that there is an established line. Will the actual breeder honestly give you the faults?

Good question...will they give you the faults? Given the importance of the matter, would you be willing to accept their word and their word alone, or would you go further and try to find out as much as you could in addition to that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cally930

Or - by saying research - it is intended that you make contacts - and simply - ask around? Is it that you have to just be out there and become familiar with the well established lines in order to learn their dog's pros and cons. In all honestly for me - research has always been a written form - this seems to me that you have to go to the shows and make connections and ask around. Is there any other way?

Hmmm...yeah, pretty much. Also, the more you are exposed to it, and the more you research and study the breed itself. The more you will know exactly what you are looking for. The more you will be able to pick up physical characteristics of dogs and lines and evaluate them for yourself.

cally930 · 09-21-2010, 09:16 AM

Bottom line - I should get myself to some shows - huh?!?
Las Vegas sounds like a great place to get started - just as long as I keep my money in my pocket - LOL.

BamaFan121s · 09-21-2010, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cally930

Bottom line - I should get myself to some shows - huh?!?

That's one place to start. You can also look and see if there are any kennel clubs in your area, either Yorkie-specific, or general. Or handling classes. Do internet searches and look for complaints or praise about specific breeders/lines. If you find one you have questions about, post it up here. A long time breeder may be more knowledgeable about certain aspects of specific lines, or may have it in their lines as well and can possibly point you in the right direction.

cally930 · 09-21-2010, 09:28 AM

Thank you again for all your input. Once again - I learned a lot!!!

YorkieRose · 09-21-2010, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Good question...will they give you the faults? Given the importance of the matter, would you be willing to accept their word and their word alone, or would you go further and try to find out as much as you could in addition to that?

Hmmm...yeah, pretty much. Also, the more you are exposed to it, and the more you research and study the breed itself. The more you will know exactly what you are looking for. The more you will be able to pick up physical characteristics of dogs and lines and evaluate them for yourself.

No, most will say their Yorkies with have no faults to prevent them from being an excellent breeding or show prospect.
BUT...when dealing with a Yorkie from known lines you have the advantage to see much of their stock in other lines and the ring...
BUT...do not consider a dog from a linage when it has perhaps one or two of that breeders dogs in the line...shoot, don't even consider half the pedigree..

A breeder can work for decades and produce a tip top dog or bitch...and bred to another line ONE time can bring in many undesirable faults and health problems...look at the breeders body work, not a few peds,...

The biggest fault I have in my Yorkies is retaining color...some can go too light, too young...but I will take a diluting gene Yorkie over a non-diluting one...The Wildweir sisters told that long ago...

Marilize · 09-22-2010, 01:58 AM

Very interesting thread

I just realized that I don't know a lot about the actual history of Yorkie breeders, just the breed. Why is it that the history of a dog never includes the complete history of the breeders who bred those dogs?

Where do I start reading about the history of all these breeders?

09-20-2010, 08:08 AM	#1
cally930 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mt. Sinai, New York Posts: 910	Researching the Pedigree I have read over and over again about researching the pedigree. If you have the paperwork from AKC and it tells you who their sire, dam are and it goes back 3 maybe 5 generations - what does that tell you. It gives you a name - but how do you research? And what is it that you are looking for when you do?

09-21-2010, 02:57 AM	#3
magicgenie Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: England Posts: 819	It takes practice and familiarity--- As you progress in your reading and discussions on the Yorkshire Terrier you will come to know the big names today's good pedigrees are built on. If you have a have a well bred dog you should be able to learn quite a lot about the accomplishments of the ancestors in an internet search. __________________ www.cloverhillyorkies.com

09-21-2010, 07:29 AM	#6
BamaFan121s Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 11,432	Not just the breeders you got the dam and sire from, but the breeders of the dogs before that too. Genetics goes back past just the dam and sire. Hmmm...it's kind of hard to explain... The more established and well known a line is, the more likely you will be able to find information. A well established line will be producing more uniform, predictable dogs. (not because of their experience/knowledge) but becase they have selectively bred their dogs over multiple generations. You ask around...it maybe common knowledge among those who've been immersed in the breed for a while that XYZ line throws small dogs or ABC's line has had LS pop up. The characteristics of their dogs starts to become more and more uniform...size, color, topline, sets, AND genetic issues. Yes, contact the breeders, other owners of dogs they've produced, vets, do research and see if they have an titles, etc. As far as "line breeding," could be a good or bad thing, depending on the breeder. Breeders should know their lines very well and line breed to bring out specific aspects. IMO, it's something that should only be done WITHIN well established lines by someone who really knows what they are doing. NOT by someone who skipped a generation and bred back immediately, generally to try to get smaller sizes (which rarely works like they intended). For example, lets say there's a long line of BamaFan's Line of Made Ups on your dams side....say it fans out from grandam/sire on to the previous 4 gens. You do research and discover that BamaFan's line is known to have very strait toplines and occasional diagnosed LS. Chances are good, that because there is so much of that line in the pedigree, that chances of it showing up in yours would be good. Now, try to imagine figuring that out without that 4 gen of strong, well known lines to factor in. Instead of having an answer, something well established and long proven, you have to try to figure it out for, say 10 breeding pairs, all from different breeders. (I hope someone else can give a better explanation.) Last edited by BamaFan121s; 09-21-2010 at 07:34 AM.

09-21-2010, 07:46 AM	#7
Lorraine Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Abbotsford, BC Posts: 2,060	The many years established show breeder will be producing a fairly consistent type. If you look at their pedigrees you will see that the dogs and bitches in that pedigree are many of that kennel name rather than a mish mash of a lot of different kennel names. An established breeder will also have an idea of waht health issues have arisen in their line and because they are using dogs of other established lines to compliment their breeding program, they also have a pretty good idea of what those other lines will carry or not. As show breeders do all talk to each other, or at least the ones I deal with do, yes information is shared to each other about what they have seen, had trouble with , or not. It really is a whole different scenario from someone who is just buying a dog here, a bitch there, breeding them with no clue of pedigrees, what is behind the pedigree. This type of scenario will usually mean that the dog and bitch they have bought came from a similar type of breeder. Or coming from someone making sort of attempts at showing maybe the odd champion, but certainly no established show breeder would show an interest in what they might have to sell. Kind of like the blind leading the blind, no consistent type in the puppies produced, a real risk of issues and problems, often start looking so much less like yorkies as the generations continue of basically using pet quality to produce puppies with the breeder not really knowing the difference. __________________ Lorraine www.loribenyorkies.com Canada

09-22-2010, 01:58 AM	#15
Marilize YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Cape town, South Africa Posts: 703	Very interesting thread I just realized that I don't know a lot about the actual history of Yorkie breeders, just the breed. Why is it that the history of a dog never includes the complete history of the breeders who bred those dogs? Where do I start reading about the history of all these breeders? __________________ Cash & Orio RIP Beautiful Joni

09-20-2010, 12:33 PM	#2
cally930 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mt. Sinai, New York Posts: 910	No one??? Any one???

09-21-2010, 04:40 AM	#4
BamaFan121s Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 11,432	You should be looking for established lines within the pedigree. Then, do research on that breeder(s). What have they accomplished within their breeding program? Are their any CH on the pedigree? How many generations back? Research and find out if those lines have any known health issues. Look to see if there has been any line breeding within the dogs lines, etc. Check to see if the breeders of the dogs listed are USDA registered? Research and see if they have had any complaints filed against them. Contact AKC and see if they are in good standing.

09-21-2010, 07:09 AM	#5
cally930 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mt. Sinai, New York Posts: 910	OK - so by saying to research - it all comes back to the breeders you got your sire and dams from. Now....how would you research the dog's health. Would the breeders actually tell you if one of their ancestors had ...........let's say LS or LP? Can this info be found anywhere other than from the breeder themselves. I know that there are certifications issued by OFA and CERF - but do all breeders test? From previous threads - I think not. Line breeding??? is this a good thing or a bad thing? And why an established line - what would that tell you, other than the same breeder bred their ancestors. Sorry - a lot of questions - but as you can probably tell - I really want to research and learn everything I can on this breed. Although I have raised yorkies for about 25 years now, it appears from this site that I really don't know anything! But I have learned a lot - and want to continue learning. Any feedback would be appreciated. And thanks for the feedback, so far. Very interesting.

09-21-2010, 07:49 AM	#8
BamaFan121s Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 11,432	See...now how come it makes so much more sense when someone else explains it?

09-21-2010, 07:52 AM	#9
cally930 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mt. Sinai, New York Posts: 910	Thank you again for your response - I really appreciate all the information you have provided me so far. Now, is it possible to get all this information from the actual breeder - let's say that there is an established line. Will the actual breeder honestly give you the faults? Or - by saying research - it is intended that you make contacts - and simply - ask around? Is it that you have to just be out there and become familiar with the well established lines in order to learn their dog's pros and cons. In all honestly for me - research has always been a written form - this seems to me that you have to go to the shows and make connections and ask around. Is there any other way?

09-21-2010, 09:16 AM	#11
cally930 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mt. Sinai, New York Posts: 910	Bottom line - I should get myself to some shows - huh?!? Las Vegas sounds like a great place to get started - just as long as I keep my money in my pocket - LOL.

09-21-2010, 09:28 AM	#13
cally930 Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mt. Sinai, New York Posts: 910	Thank you again for all your input. Once again - I learned a lot!!!