The Tests we do

[yorkielady06]

Originally Posted by cally930

But does it? Everything seems to point to "No". You assure the buyers that the breeding stock is healthy - but if there are no assurances that the puppies will be healthy - then why test?

In the big picture I believe yes. If you have a dog with MVD or LP or Legg-perthes and you breed that dog I feel that your have increased your chances of producing a pup with that disorder. I know LS do not follow that however how many breeders would breed a LS dog? None that I know of, why?

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by gemy

Also what I have read recently, I think a British source, is that on average more dogs seem to be overweight, in fact decidely pudgey, that combined with lower levels of exercise,will negatively affect overall health. Cardiovascular, immune, organs, and joints, will be challenged.

Lifestyle will certainly impact a dog's health. Lack of exercise will definitely have a negative impact on the body. Also, many of the pre-packaged treats are not healthy.

These things will affect a dog, but usually it's an effect seen later in life. I don't think it really reflects on the breeder except that some people seem to think that any problem, at any stage of life, is the breeder's fault. That is not fair and it brings about the question of the responsibility of the owner. A breeder shouldn't be held responsible for the poor care a dog may be given by its new owner.

Since we both used the word 'challenged' in our posts, I would like to clarify. When I suggested feeding a high protein food to a pup to challenge the function of the liver, I used 'challenge' to mean to test the working of the liver. I *think* you mean challenged as in compromised. Just pointing that out so no one gets confused.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Lifestyle will certainly impact a dog's health. Lack of exercise will definitely have a negative impact on the body. Also, many of the pre-packaged treats are not healthy.

These things will affect a dog, but usually it's an effect seen later in life. I don't think it really reflects on the breeder except that some people seem to think that any problem, at any stage of life, is the breeder's fault. That is not fair and it brings about the question of the responsibility of the owner. A breeder shouldn't be held responsible for the poor care a dog may be given by its new owner.

Since we both used the word 'challenged' in our posts, I would like to clarify. When I suggested feeding a high protein food to a pup to challenge the function of the liver, I used 'challenge' to mean to test the working of the liver. I *think* you mean challenged as in compromised. Just pointing that out so no one gets confused.

Yes challenged does mean compromised in my sentence.

To speak to the other paragraphs, breeders should speak about the risks of overweight dogs, the need for good wholesome and safe exercise, and how exercise cautions and safety changes as your pup matures to an adult dog. If you have in your puppy packet some of these things, along with vacc protocols, and as well in conversation emphasize those things, it gives instruction(s) to the new puppy parent. Show and describe how you can tell if your dog is overweight. Explain how to measure and to feed the appropriate amount of food per day.

For YT's jumping up and down like a jumping jack,as a young pup, might damage the knees, and or other joints. Besides which, it is good to start young, to train the pup, how to greet nicely newcomers. Sit, be still, get treats and lots of good pets

I rarely buy store bought training treats, I make my own, and or use, fresh veggies, leftover chicken, lamb, or beef. They are all cut down for my YOrkie to small pea size. I emphasize to new puppy owners treats are rewards, for good behaviour. Obedience commands, rewards for good potties, etc.

While I don't breed yorkies, I do intend to breed my BRT;s. these are large dogs, and have as well some unique, training and growth challenges. For example; you don't want to put weight too fast on the young growing pup. Their bones don't fuse until 18mths and some slow maturing lines, 24mths. No high jumping, no hill descents, etc before at least 18mths.

[lingenieuse]

Good for you.OFA screening is so important.One must look over the verticle pedigrees to be able to estimate results.No data=mostly guesswork.I chose not to breed the dogs that I have that are affected with genetic disorders that cause pain.

[manolos mom]

Gail, great thread! The way I look at it is nothing is guaranteed in life. Nothing! For instance, I am 5'6" my husband is 6'0 and 2 of my daughters are 5'1 and 5'3. The other one is 5'9. Dont know where the 2 girls got their height from. Another thing is that my great grandmother was an Albino. We have no idea where that came from, deep in our family lines. You can only test for what is in front of you. You never know whats buried deep in any lines.JMO, Great thread and great info...

[Gennies]

Originally Posted by cally930

I must say - this has been very interesting reading. Thank you for starting this thread - and thank you to all the posters for your insight. Every day I learn so much from this site. Thanks again.

[MyTrixie143]

Originally Posted by yorkielady06

In the big picture I believe yes. If you have a dog with MVD or LP or Legg-perthes and you breed that dog I feel that your have increased your chances of producing a pup with that disorder. I know LS do not follow that however how many breeders would breed a LS dog? None that I know of, why?

I agree!! This is exactly how I was thinking. If you had one that had high bile acids you probably wouldn't breed that dog right? But how would you know that in the first place if you never had them tested to begin with?

So for all you know, if you don't test, you can be breeding dogs with high bile acids and that just doesn't seem like a good outcome.

No, testing doesn't guarantee anything but I think it still sheds a little insight on the matter and I would rather test and not be intentionally breeding dogs with high bile acids. Because if you aren't testing you could very well be intentionally breeding dogs with high bile acids.

I once heard that there is a certain hormone that the dam produces that may determine whether that pup is born with a liver shunt. If the dam doesn't produce this certain hormone during conception than they end up with a pup with LS.
I don't know how much was looked into it but I think it kinda makes more sense than it being genetic. Because it would explain why you could breed the same pair and end up with a LS pup one time and no LS pups another time.

[felicity1008]

Thanks...interesting! So i shouldnt waste my $ having my pups tested because i did not know the grandparents?

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by felicity1008

Thanks...interesting! So i shouldnt waste my $ having my pups tested because i did not know the grandparents?

Yep, that is exactly what she was getting at, please continue to breed out of standard dogs in which you have no idea what they may be passing on to future generations. The Yorkie rescues aren't full enough with unhealthy dogs produced by uneducated breeders so they need your help! Thanks for the contribution, I'm sure they'll enjoy coming up with the cash to treat your future pups for genetic diseases, and trying to find them great families that can afford the medical expenses caused not by not running tests, but because the pup just pulled the short straw.

Not your concern though, because once you pass them off to people in trade for goods (be it money or a new roof) they aren't your problem anymore just be sure to put in the health guarantee that you (the breeder of course ) are not responsible for any medical expenses caused by congenial defects discovered in the pups...Wouldn't want you to have to come out of pocket to take care of the health of a puppy your "breeding program" produced now would you?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by felicity1008

Thanks...interesting! So i shouldnt waste my $ having my pups tested because i did not know the grandparents?

Yeah, pretty much. Why bother? Testing the pups themselves is going to do very little good if you don't know anything about the medical history of the other dogs in their lines.

But, it's not a means of justifying not bothering with health tests, although it does make a rather convenient excuse. It's an indication that the breedings shouldn't be ocurring in the first place.

[cally930]

But isn't testing puppies useless because you really can't get a good reading unless they are 6 months of age? I know that there is an initial test done earlier than the 6 month mark - but what does that prove if its inaccurate on its own?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by cally930

But isn't testing puppies useless because you really can't get a good reading unless they are 6 months of age? I know that there is an initial test done earlier than the 6 month mark - but what does that prove if its inaccurate on its own?

Even so, if there's a chance that it can be detected at an earlier age--even if you know a re-test will be needed to be 100% certain, wouldn't that be better from the aspect of being able to let potential owners know. Or if a pup did come back with positive test results at an early age, then the breeder could hold them until they were older and more concrete test could be conducted.

Furthermore, what would be the alternative? Have the new owners take on the responsibility of having them tested when they are older?

It's all the more reason to have had the adults (for several generations back) tested and to have a good overall knowledge of their medical histories. Sure, it may show up out of the blue anyway, but you are still GREATLY reducing the chances of having it happen.

[felicity1008]

Originally Posted by Deuce

Yep, that is exactly what she was getting at, please continue to breed out of standard dogs in which you have no idea what they may be passing on to future generations. The Yorkie rescues aren't full enough with unhealthy dogs produced by uneducated breeders so they need your help! Thanks for the contribution, I'm sure they'll enjoy coming up with the cash to treat your future pups for genetic diseases, and trying to find them great families that can afford the medical expenses caused not by not running tests, but because the pup just pulled the short straw.

Not your concern though, because once you pass them off to people in trade for goods (be it money or a new roof) they aren't your problem anymore just be sure to put in the health guarantee that you (the breeder of course ) are not responsible for any medical expenses caused by congenial defects discovered in the pups...Wouldn't want you to have to come out of pocket to take care of the health of a puppy your "breeding program" produced now would you?

I will have to pay up to 2x the cost of the pup for any treated defects in NJ...and i do not mind at all to give that. Just wondering what tests should be done on the pups if at all, considering parents are healthy. i do have the information on rockys lineage for i found the breeder and spoke to them.

[felicity1008]

Originally Posted by Deuce

Yep, that is exactly what she was getting at, please continue to breed out of standard dogs in which you have no idea what they may be passing on to future generations. The Yorkie rescues aren't full enough with unhealthy dogs produced by uneducated breeders so they need your help! Thanks for the contribution, I'm sure they'll enjoy coming up with the cash to treat your future pups for genetic diseases, and trying to find them great families that can afford the medical expenses caused not by not running tests, but because the pup just pulled the short straw.

Not your concern though, because once you pass them off to people in trade for goods (be it money or a new roof) they aren't your problem anymore just be sure to put in the health guarantee that you (the breeder of course ) are not responsible for any medical expenses caused by congenial defects discovered in the pups...Wouldn't want you to have to come out of pocket to take care of the health of a puppy your "breeding program" produced now would you?

As for the new roof update. I get my new roof on Friday!!! The hubby really wanted a puppy for they just lost his dog during the summer. but i spoke to his wife ( a friend of minE) She is still so upset about losing their dog and is just not ready for a new one yet. so i appreciate her honesty and feelings. So we will just be going to dinner as a thank you. I let you know the magazines that my home will appear in.

[BamaFan121s]

Wouldn't it be more prudent for one to ensure they are breeding healthy dogs to begin with? IMO, it doesn't make it an acceptable practice to breed dogs of unknown lineage just because one is willing to foot the bill IF something goes wrong.

I don't think the pain and suffering of the dog and new owner would be erased and 'worth it' just because the breeder vowed to pay the vet bills.