Yorkshire Terrier Club of Ethical Hobby Breeders

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by magicgenie

It's wonderful this thread has lasted this long and I'm happy to see the puppy mill situation being discussed here. With Ethics being at the core of YTCEHB, it is very appropriate to tackle puppy mills and brokers here.
While on the one hand I could support tougher legislation, we have to handle that very delicately so as not to have it harm the small breeder who is doing things correctly.
At first I LOVED YorkieRose's suggestion about requiring chipping and holding the breeder accountable for dogs they produced showing up at a shelter. I would do that. But then I started to wonder if that would just drive the bad breeders further underground.
I'm all in favor of keeping media attention on the puppy mill industry and concentrating on educating the public about what they are supporting when they buy pets in stores.
Reminds me of last Christmas when I had a litter of very nice puppies and a man from a nearby wealthy town phoned looking for one. He didn't seem interested in price, nor in discussing quality, seemed kind of rushed and inconvenienced that I was a few miles away. I was thinking so far he didn't seem like a good prospect for my puppy but I went ahead and booked the appointment for him and his wife to visit, hoping they would show more interest in the important things when they got here. I have no difficulty sending people away without a puppy if something about them bothers me. Well, the wife phoned the next day to say they were cancelling the visit because they "went to a nearby mall and found a nice one with a warranty and everything."
This puppy mill stuff has to be kept constantly in the news and everybody's face until they get it that buying a puppy in a store is a very bad thing.
Anyway, thanks everybody for keeping the discussion civil. That's very nice.

Closing all pet stores would be a very good very HUGE first step. Maybe that shoud be our focus.

[gardenyorkies]

Jeanie I certainly hear your tone in the last several posts you have made...I don't think Yorkiekist has made the personal attacks that you have made here...Can we just be civil and exchange opinions?...Just sayin'

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by gardenyorkies

Jeanie I certainly hear your tone in the last several posts you have made...I don't think Yorkiekist has made the personal attacks that you have made here...Can we just be civil and exchange opinions?...Just sayin'

I'm not speaking for Jeanie - but it appears to me that she was trying to respond to posts directed at her from earlier this morning and clarify her position/opinion.

It takes two sides for a civil exchange...and there has already been a lot of that on this thread, so, no reason it can't continue.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by gardenyorkies

Jeanie I certainly hear your tone in the last several posts you have made...I don't think Yorkiekist has made the personal attacks that you have made here...Can we just be civil and exchange opinions?...Just sayin'

You hear what is in your head not mine. Don't reflect your negative thoughts into my posts. I know what I said and what I meant. you do not. Others got it right. There are just a few of you that want to keep harassing me about it.

Think what you want. it is only your opinion. people hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Closing all pet stores would be a very good very HUGE first step. Maybe that shoud be our focus.

At least breeders who sell to pet stores have to be listed with the USDA, and have some federal regulation, those that sell over the internet and directly to the public have no federal regulation, so closing pet stores would do little to stop puppy mills.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

At least breeders who sell to pet stores have to be listed with the USDA, and have some federal regulation, those that sell over the internet and directly to the public have no federal regulation, so closing pet stores would do little to stop puppy mills.

I believe that closing pet stores would stop the impulse buying and would eliminate at least one outlet for puppy mills.

JMO But I don't believe that the USDA does a very good job of policing the puppymills. The miller can set up one very nice kennel to get licensed and to use for inspections, then go on to keep dogs in buildings off the premesis.

The licensing is just like the AKC registration, it gives people a false sense of security.

[Rhetts_mama]

Closing pet stores would limit impulse buying to some extent. But it wouldn't stop the person who picks a puppy from the ad in the newspaper or internet. Just because someone doesn't breed more than 50 pups a year doesn't mean they are a good breeder or that they aren't a small scale puppy mill. Unfortunately, some of the sickest dogs I've seen have come from the small scale backyard breeder.

My best friend lives in Bakersfield. Her neighbor across the street flies just under the "puppy mill" radar. She gets away with it by having pens instead of cages. The pups (dachsunds) are never in doors (despite the heat there in the summer) and completely unsocialized. My friend has called animal control several times, but because she doesn't breed what ever the requisite number required for licensing, there isn't much they can do. Of course, we found out that some of her dames are registered in her daughter's name- so technically they aren't hers... As long as they have shade, food and water and the pens are "reasonably clean" (meaning limited visible feces, though the urine smell is overwhelming in the summer), their hands are tied.

It would be interesting to do a study to see how many people have bought from a pet shop versus a private breeder. It's just my personal opinion that I believe more people have gotten their impulse puppies from the paper instead of the store.

[YorkieRose]

[QUOTE=Rhetts_mama;3219882]I agree with that. But then I would withhold AKC registration until spay/neuter is completed (as some breeders already do).[/QU

I have no problem with that at all...but it would not affect the miller for a second...they are now almost 100% non-AKC..and if I owned a puppymill I would not go near AKC...I would use ACA..no regulates, no rules, no inspection, no record keeping, no DNA, no consequnces...do as you please. Don't you find most pet shop pups are not AKC now?

Pets shops, even high volume breeders mix up puppies and breedings all the time...if you deal with a DNA registry you can have a big old mess if you screw up...I have heard of breeders having 3 yrs of breedings voided because of AKC DNA mistakes...so that is one reason most millers avoid AKC...and no inpsections..although I have never figured out how any miller with 100;s of dogs could pass an inspection.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I believe that closing pet stores would stop the impulse buying and would eliminate at least one outlet for puppy mills.

JMO But I don't believe that the USDA does a very good job of policing the puppymills. The miller can set up one very nice kennel to get licensed and to use for inspections, then go on to keep dogs in buildings off the premesis.

The licensing is just like the AKC registration, it gives people a false sense of security.

You might be interested in this thread: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...mill-bill.html
It's a bill that would require breeders who sell more than 50 dogs yearly directly to the public to have licensed kennels and also beef up USDA's powers.

[nana911]

...and there is also the broker's that sell in small, in-home settings, that give the appearance of perhaps a hobby breeder, not even big enough for a byb. but in actuality are selling for millers.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

Closing pet stores would limit impulse buying to some extent. But it wouldn't stop the person who picks a puppy from the ad in the newspaper or internet. Just because someone doesn't breed more than 50 pups a year doesn't mean they are a good breeder or that they aren't a small scale puppy mill. Unfortunately, some of the sickest dogs I've seen have come from the small scale backyard breeder.

My best friend lives in Bakersfield. Her neighbor across the street flies just under the "puppy mill" radar. She gets away with it by having pens instead of cages. The pups (dachsunds) are never in doors (despite the heat there in the summer) and completely unsocialized. My friend has called animal control several times, but because she doesn't breed what ever the requisite number required for licensing, there isn't much they can do. Of course, we found out that some of her dames are registered in her daughter's name- so technically they aren't hers... As long as they have shade, food and water and the pens are "reasonably clean" (meaning limited visible feces, though the urine smell is overwhelming in the summer), their hands are tied.

It would be interesting to do a study to see how many people have bought from a pet shop versus a private breeder. It's just my personal opinion that I believe more people have gotten their impulse puppies from the paper instead of the store.

By impulse buying, I meant people buying a puppy just because they walked into a pet store and saw one. At least with a newspaper ad or internet, you have to have been looking for one, and hopefully put some thought into it.

[YorkieRose]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

At least breeders who sell to pet stores have to be listed with the USDA, and have some federal regulation, those that sell over the internet and directly to the public have no federal regulation, so closing pet stores would do little to stop puppy mills.

It would have a huge effect...Huntt Corp would go bust..! It would cut volume breeding way back. The easy part for the miller is to produce puppies the way the farmer produces apples...grow them, truck comes, pays the farmer and takes them to the market where they are sold..same for breeder who sell to a broker liek Huntt, they have an ready and demanding market for their product...
..
If they had to sell 100, 200, 300 puppies by way of the Internet each year...and that is conservative for many...it would be a difficult job. The public is getting wiser each day to the internet rip offs. Every complaint would fall right back on them, not the pet shop. Complaints should be reported to county and states and investated...huge fines for violators...

It is not so easy to move large volumes of dogs without a middle man like Huntt corp..no one comes back at these breeders if the puppy is unhealthy, unsocialized etc...the pet shop gets the grief..the pet shop may stop dealing with a problem breeder, but doesn't look like most do.,or there wouldn't be so many sick puppies coming out of pet shops, right.

[Rhetts_mama]

I would hazard a guess that not as many puppies are strictly impulse (as in just happened to be passing by the mall and saw that cute little puppy in the window) versus someone who has gone to the pet store specifically looking for a dog because they wanted one. I could be wrong- but $1500 on pure impulse seems a little steep for most people. I have a feeling more of them had at least been thinking about it, searching online/paper and went to the store because they didn't want to wait until a litter was ready.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

It would have a huge effect...Huntt Corp would go bust..! It would cut volume breeding way back. The easy part for the miller is to produce puppies the way the farmer produces apples...grow them, truck comes, pays the farmer and takes them to the market where they are sold..same for breeder who sell to a broker liek Huntt, they have an ready and demanding market for their product...
..
If they had to sell 100, 200, 300 puppies by way of the Internet each year...and that is conservative for many...it would be a difficult job. The public is getting wiser each say to the internet rip offs. Every complaint would fall right back on them, not the pet shop. Complaints should be reported to county and states and investated...huge fines for violators...

It is not so easy to move large volumes of dogs without a middle man like Huntt corp..no one comes back at these breeders if the puppy is unhealthy, unsocialized etc...the pet shop gets the grief..the pet shop may stop dealing with a problem breeder, but doesn't look like most do.,or there wouldn't be so many sick puppies coming out of pet shops, right.

I'm all in favor of closing Pet Stores, but if they are closed, people will look even more to the Internet for buying a dog. We need legislation that will cover these breeders. Many breeders have multiple websites, those that appeal to one type of person, and those that will appeal to another type. I'm not sure what you mean by complaints would fall back on them, what's happening now, when people buy from a website and get a sickly dog? Not too much, but even if Hunt goes out of business, the millers still can sell directly to the public, and as the laws stand now, they won't even have to be regulated. I think young people are very comfortable buying ANYTHING over the internet, and I disagree with you that it will be hard to sell 300 dogs a year over the Internet.

[Rhetts_mama]

Jeanie- don't get me wrong. I think outlawing pet stores that sell puppies and kittens is a good first step. But I think it would be too easy for people to get complacent after that and think they've removed the whole puppy mill industry. There have been multiple cities that have banned them, and all it did was create a whole new industry of puppy mill brokers.

As for the fact that AKC won't start making tougher regulations because people will just run to CKC or what ever: Is that REALLY an excuse for them to not do it? Just because someone else has low standards doesn't mean that mine need to be low, too.