Standing Ears - Genetic?
 

I mentioned in another thread something regarding standing ears as being a genetic trait. I was told that was inaccurate--that standing or flopping ears was not a trait passed on genetically. :confused: (Rather than ONLY being a result of not training the ear.)

Would like to get some insight on this from others. :) The member expressed interest in getting more info, so could how about lending a gal a hand?

In the meantime, I'm going to go digging through all my notebooks and binders for misc sources of info I've collected over the years. :) I'm pretty sure it's touch on in Padgett's book (my all time fave resource) but I'm going to have to go try to dig all this stuff out again.

if they have ever stood, it is not genetic. I have had a couple of pups that the people did not keep the heavy ear hair off and it weighted them down. get the hair off and they will go right back up. or sometimes they will cut teeth and an ear will go down. usually goes back up tho especially if it is taped up a day or two. I have always heard if they have never been up, it is likely genetic tho.

It can be genetric as well as the ear hair no being trimmed off the ears at an important time in a pup's life. So it can be caused by either.

Some yorkies have can have a genetric trait of a thick skin ear leather and no matter what you do the ears will never stand. These ears are usually large as well.

Also while a pup is teething the ear can dip due to the stress of cutting teeth and then if the hair is not trimmed off during this time can cause the ear to flop. If they are not helped out and ears are always flopped - this ear too can permanetly stay flopped over. This can be for a smaller ear. If the ear stays this way for awhile - say by the time the dog is 1 - the ear will never stand.

I hope this helps. One reason you do not want to breed a large or thicker leather ears.

I posted this in the other thread but will re-post here....

Ann Seranne, in her book The Joy of Breeding Your Own Show Dog, has a list of genetically dominant and recessive traits. As pertaining to ears...small ears, high set ears, narrow ear leather and dropped or tipped ears are all recessive traits. Large or long ears, wide ear leather, low set ears and erect ears are all dominant traits.

That's the only info I've ever seen that addresses this.

Thanks...it's one of those things I just assume is common knowledge. (I mean, EVERY physical trait is a result of genetics, right? Why would ears be any different?) Just trying to find more than just my word for it. ;)

Found a few of my notes...going to see what I can find. :)

Also check out Gordon and Bennett book pg. 185 - talks about ears -

"should be small "V" shaped ears."

See second pearagraph - "should not be round at the tips, nor bat-shaped like a French Bull-dog's. They are carried erect, and when excited or at attention, carried even higher. Although this is not covered in the Yorkie Standard the ears should have quite thin leather (outer cartilage of the ear), although with enough strength to keep them erect. Thick leather leads to semi-erect or drop ears.
The size of the ear should receive a good deal of appreciative regard.
The ancestors who went into the prduction of the Yorkshire Terrier all had large ears and they are dominant genetically to small ears.
... no breeder should ever forget that the ears do add up in the total of a prosperous look to the head."

So yes, it can be genectic.

Here is a photo of a litter of just turned 9 week old pups. All ears are up! :D

I've seen also where thin ear leather can keep the ear from standing initially. I suppose there's just not enough structure there for a while.

It kind of reminds me of Goldilocks? and the 3 bears. You know, the ideal ear is not too thin, not too thick, but just right:p.

Come to think of it, that's about the way it is with the whole dog...not too this or too that but just so...

LOL - yea Gordon goes into ... "The genius that added the beastly word. "too" should be made to realize that too many toos have too often led to too much woe." Before the present standard, the specification had simply beed "not far apart." The British standard still has it that way. The addition of the word "too" changes the whole picture by allowing for any kind of interpretation."

Flop ears are most certainly genetic.

I recently read -where I can't remember - but on some vet site something about the delicate cartilage can get broken - particularly in the case where one ear refuses to stand, often when the pups are very young from rough housing with their litter mates, etc. Seems like a reasonable explanation, particular on the one-ear situation. ~KC

I NEVER said that it was inaccurate. If your going to quote me do it properly!!! I said I did not agree!!!! And until I learn differently I will continue to believe that it is not genetic! inheriting something, and something being genetic are very different.

However I am not going to believe something someone says just because they said it.

That's Derby right there! Big, thick ears. I've seen them go up, but they refuse to stand for more than a few seconds. flop flop flop.

Then erect ears are a dominate trait, and would dominate over floppy ears. So how can a recessive trait show up over a dominate? As far as I know it can't.:confused:

Everything we all are is the result of genes pairing up. Inheritance is just a word used to describe the mode of transmission of unique genetic pairings (traits) to offspring.

Genetics is the essence of breeding. To breed for a breed standard, you must breed for selected traits (gene pairings). Pure bred dogs are often line bred to reduce the # of potential gene combinations....setting desirable traits.

You may go "duh" at some of this, but your statement that genetics and inheritance are two very different things is just wrong. They're not....gene pairings = traits expressed in the physical makeup of an individual through the mode of inheritance. This applies to all traits....both outward and inner.

Everything we all are is the result of genes pairing up. Inheritance is just a word used to describe the mode of transmission of unique genetic pairings (traits) to offspring.

Genetics is the essence of breeding. To breed for a breed standard, you must breed for selected traits (gene pairings). Pure bred dogs are often line bred to reduce the # of potential gene combinations....setting desirable traits, both structurally and appearance-wise.

You may go "duh" at some of this, but your statement that genetics and inheritance are two very different things is just wrong. They're not....gene pairings = traits....expressed in the physical makeup of an individual through the mode of inheritance.

Ok, I am wrong, there, can we drop this now because I honestly do not care why their ears sand up or how... I didn't bring it up.

And I DO know about genetics, enough to get me by anyhow most of the time. ALL I did was disagree with someone, and used the wrong words. Shoot me please!:eek:

Probably over-simplifying here, but, with a recessive gene, an offspring must get a copy of that gene from each parent in order to be expressed. With a dominate gene, only one copy of that gene is needed for a trait to be expressed.

" There are 3 genotypes for every trait:
1. Double Dominant or pure for a character =Double Homozygous
2. Double Recessive or pure for a character = Recessive Homozygous
3. Mixed genes or hybrids = Heterozygous "

The above taken from Ann Seranne's 'The Joy of Breeding Your Own Show Dog'.

As you can see, breeding pure for a trait means to be homozygous. An animal that is heterozygous for a trait may give you that trait, but not predictably. In the case of the Yorkie, Huddersfield Ben is considered the foundation stud because he was the first to breed pure but probably wasn't the first to exhibit the desired traits.

Also, a gene being recessive doesn't mean it's a 'bad' gene. A great many features of the Yorkshire Terrier come from recessive genes.

I recommend Seranne's book. It's a good place to start with dog genetics. You'll get more from it the more you go back to it.

Thank you very much for taking the time to go into such detail. I appreciate it very much! :) I think I would like to learn more, I will look into that book...

I was having a crap day yesterday sorry if I was kinda... well, bitchy..

Thank you for being big enough to appologize. That was very nice and needed. The reason we have to clear up things to make sure they are accurate, since people get on here and read these posts they must be correct.

Yes, flooped ears can most certainly be genetic and should not be bred. If one is breeding, one needs to breed correctly. Or we would end up eventually changing our breed again to flopped ears. I love to see the ears up at attention. It shows how alert they are and gives so much expression. This is my opinion. Of course if I was not breeding and had a little love bug yorkie as a pet only with flopped ears - I would love her all the same. But remember - standing correct upright ears is correct. Also you want a small "V" shaped ears. Not bat rounded tipped ears or ears with thick skin leather, large ears.

Ann Seranne book is great and I have had mine since the early 80s. She is you know one of the Mayfair girls. They had some beautiful yorkies! IMO - Excellent structure I may add. The Complete Yorkshire Terrier by Gordon and Bennett is another good book (I used to expalin). They were the Wildweir girls. Almost every yorkie we have here in America goes back to Wildweir.

I am very sorry...I did not mean to upset or insult you. :( Was just trying to get help in getting the information to you...It's mentioned on here quite a bit and just taken for fact. So it's a good topic for discussion. :)

They are? How so?

Don't worry about it. Genetics can be confusing at times and some terms can be used in ways that add to the confusion. For instance, if both parents are homozygous (pure) for a recessive trait, it could be expressed that they are dominant for that trait. That trait would still be the result of recessive genes as a recessive gene cannot change to being a dominant gene but will dominate over a dominant gene due to them breeding pure for that recessive gene. How's that for talking in circles? :D

I'm just now getting to the point where the essentials are clear enough to me to say I'm getting a grip on the subject. It's really something that you have to study (over and over), along with pedigree research (over and over), in order to develop a working knowledge. It's really important, though, as a practical knowledge, or lack of, will show up in your dogs.

Wonderful...I see so few breeders even attempting to understand genetics and what the results could be if not understood.

On my home from the dog show today we were talking about ears LOL...floppy ears are so hard to breed out once it's in the lines...genetics are very hard to understand and I'm still trying to get it all in LOL...I've been learning and it's a continous learning process.
Yorkies are one of the hardest breeds....
Out of the litters I've had I've only had one pup to know be able to hold up his ear....I've only had to tape one pups ears and the rest have always stood up on their own :)

Donna

I have a question.

Given the size, thickness, and floppiness of Derby's ears-- (along with his 12 pounder size) is it possible he is also just a poorly bred Yorkie?

Would genetics make him, unyorkie lookin' as he grew up?

I just thought about this as I was deleting old threads and found my first post asking if my baby was a Yorkie or not. As a puppy he looked pretty Yorkie, but the more he grew up (and responses we got, and still get from people) is that he is not all Yorkie.

Just wondering. I tried so hard with the ears, and I get so excited when they go up I take a million pictures. lol I really do love it, but I got this guy and we'll be doing DNA testing in the future because it's driving us crazy. He went from looking like a big Yorkie, to not really looking Yorkie at all.

I saw the cutest YOrkie today at the dog park, and I can't help it. I was a little jealous...

How tall is that boy? He looks really long legged. I an convinced Derby is mixed with something other then a yorkie. He looks like a great fun loving boy. I enjoyed his pictures.

You know you could always add another yorkie, a smaller one. Derby would do great with a smaller dog too. Mine do:)

I don't have a measuring tape right now, but I am nearly 5 feet tall and his body stands about 3/4 way up my leg/1.4 down the way from my knee. With his head? different story. He does have really long legs! and a long body too.

i shouldn't care if Derby is all Yorkie or not, but I wanted a purebred Yorkie and I ended up Derby (DH found him, and chose him). I love him so much, but I can't help it! When i see those purebred beautiful Yorkies, I get really jealous.

My husband says he feels Derby was worth every penny because of his personality, but I think- for almost $1500 I should have a purebred Yorkie!! I can't get over the price I just can't. Derby was worth it, but if he is a mix... that insane pricing.

anyway, my husband says we're not getting another Yorkie until this one is gone! but I feel differently. I figure once we are settled in a house, and ready for kids, that I'll be able to squeeze another dog into the household :)

This is an intresting thread for me, I used to love rooting out old yorkie books at sales and in some of the older ones the breed standard allowed errect or semi-errect ears. Something that was brought in after the ban on ear cropping came into effect. I remember reading somewhere some breeders accussed those with influence and high enough up, of having it added as they couldnot breed the trait out of their lines. Today you wont find a yorkie with such ear carrage in the show ring and the line has been removed from the standard. Ear tapping is not practiced in yorkies here in the U.K, I'm not sure about other breeds though, if you got a pup who's ears didn't stand they are sold on to pet homes to keep it out of the line.