How to tell which puppy will have a pixie look?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

LOL, somebody save me from myself because I may be saying more than I know. But, not all traits are the result of a single gene, be it dominant or recessive. Some traits are polygenetic, some are sex linked and there are other characteristics of genes that make it not so clear cut.

I don't know if the foreface is a from a single gene...it may be. The only point I'm trying to make is that not all recessive traits follow suit like the pie-bald gene, which we're all more familiar with (as in 2 partis bred together will only produce partis).

Like in the case of coat texture. All the characteristics of an ideal Yorkie coat are from recessive genes. But it wouldn't be true at all to say that you will get 100% silky coats so long as you bred 2 dogs with a silky coat together.

So true, not all traits are the result of a single gene, but according to the website linked a short muzzle could be traced to a single gene, although, I don't know if that website is accurate. The yorkies hair, as you say, comes from a complex mixture, and from my understanding, mixtures are even more common than 100% silly, but my point is if you want to know what the offspring will look like as an adult, look at the parents, this is a great indication! I think some people think that the offspring will somehow be so much cuter than the parents, and this is usually not the case, unless the breeder really knows what he/she's doing.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

So true, not all traits are the result of a single gene, but according to the website linked a short muzzle could be traced to a single gene, although, I don't know if that website is accurate. The yorkies hair, as you say, comes from a complex mixture, and from my understanding, mixtures are even more common than 100% silly, but my point is if you want to know what the offspring will look like as an adult, look at the parents, this is a great indication! I think some people think that the offspring will somehow be so much cuter than the parents, and this is usually not the case, unless the breeder really knows what he/she's doing.

As I said, I don't know about the foreface, beyond what I've read, and that's about the same as you posted. My point was that you (and I mean you in general terms) can't assume all recessive traits follow through as the parti gene, and I was just using that for an example.

Your point about looking to the parents as an indicator of how a pup will mature is more true in line bred dogs than those with an open pedigree. With an open pedigree, there's no telling what will be expressed and I've even had surprises (a teapot from 5 pound parents) with line bred dogs. I've also had pups that had that happy mixing of genes where I thought they were better (for lack of a better word) than either parent.

Yorkies are such a fascinating breed. They never cease to amaze (and perplex) me.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

As I said, I don't know about the foreface, beyond what I've read, and that's about the same as you posted. My point was that you (and I mean you in general terms) can't assume all recessive traits follow through as the parti gene, and I was just using that for an example.

Your point about looking to the parents as an indicator of how a pup will mature is more true in line bred dogs than those with an open pedigree. With an open pedigree, there's no telling what will be expressed and I've even had surprises (a teapot from 5 pound parents) with line bred dogs. I've also had pups that had that happy mixing of genes where I thought they were better (for lack of a better word) than either parent.

Yorkies are such a fascinating breed. They never cease to amaze (and perplex) me.

I wasn't talking about the parti gene, (really ) I never even heard of the parti gene until I came to Yorkietalk. I have studied a little genetics, and I'm just referring to the recessive gene in general. Genetics a fairly exact science, if you knew for sure, which genes were recessive and which were dominant, and if the trait is only governed by one gene, you can predict the results, of course even then we still we are only dealing in probability, but with the recessive gene, it's 100 % probability, and those are good odds. The problem is usually with the dominant gene on predictability, because that is the one that is displayed, yet there only needs to be one dominant gene passed to display the trait. Genetics hold true across species, and the first studies were done on plants, but genetics follows certain strict laws. I don't mean to imply that it's easy though, so many traits are ruled by more than one gene.

I'm not saying a breeder can't have offspring that are better looking than parents, in fact, that should be a goal, but I just don't think a buyer can count on that happening. If it did, I would think the breeder would want to add that dog to his/her breeding program and not sell it as a pet. Every piece of advice I've read on buying a dog, tells the buyer to look at the parents, and I believe that this is a good rule. Of course, I believe that you should find a breeder who looks at the whole line.

[Woogie Man]

Oh, I knew you weren't talking about the parti gene and no, I'm not trying to go there I just used that as an example most could relate to. Genetics does all go back to Mendel, but animals are much more complex. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.

Going back to the Yorkie coat, 3 distinguishing characteristics (long, straight and smooth) are recessive traits. Sounds easy to lock all that in but it's entirely possible to get a wiry coat, for example, from silk coat parents.

The list I've seen of recessive and dominate traits is the same as what's posted in this thread. In the book I have that's just what it's called... recessive and dominate traits. It doesn't specify if they're single gene characteristics or not. I would think not all are since coat predictability isn't 100%.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Oh, I knew you weren't talking about the parti gene and no, I'm not trying to go there I just used that as an example most could relate to. Genetics does all go back to Mendel, but animals are much more complex. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.

Going back to the Yorkie coat, 3 distinguishing characteristics (long, straight and smooth) are recessive traits. Sounds easy to lock all that in but it's entirely possible to get a wiry coat, for example, from silk coat parents.

The list I've seen of recessive and dominate traits is the same as what's posted in this thread. In the book I have that's just what it's called... recessive and dominate traits. It doesn't specify if they're single gene characteristics or not. I would think not all are since coat predictability isn't 100%.

Actually, my posts are mainly to inform buyers who know even less than I do, I'm really not trying to teach anything to breeders. I knew that the Yorkie coat was one of the most difficult to obtain, but I guess the silky coat isn't based on one gene, or could be linked or incompletely dominant or other things I know nothing about. Hmm, not so sure why you breeders don't like my buying tip of "look at the parents." Really that's all it is, a tip.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Actually, my posts are mainly to inform buyers who know even less than I do, I'm really not trying to teach anything to breeders. I knew that the Yorkie coat was one of the most difficult to obtain, but I guess the silky coat isn't based on one gene, or could be linked or incompletely dominant or other things I know nothing about. Hmm, not so sure why you breeders don't like my buying tip of "look at the parents." Really that's all it is, a tip.

Nancy,

The yorkie everything is one of the most difficult thing to breed.

But, if you really want to know what a puppy will turn out like....take a look at the grandparents...

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Nancy,

The yorkie everything is one of the most difficult thing to breed.

But, if you really want to know what a puppy will turn out like....take a look at the grandparents...

I do notice a lot of breeders advertise that grandpa was a champ! Seriously, most people who buy puppies never look at the parents, and I think this is a huge mistake.


I have heard that, you have a better chance of producing another champion from the pair that produced the champion, than from the champion himself. Any truth to that?

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I do notice a lot of breeders advertise that grandpa was a champ! Seriously, most people who buy puppies never look at the parents, and I think this is a huge mistake.


I have heard that, you have a better chance of producing another champion from the pair that produced the champion, than from the champion himself. Any truth to that?

You silly girl....advertising /grandsire champ!.....

Here's my read on looking at the parents....while it's nice, more often than not, a dam/sire will produce grandsire/granddam. Now, while it's nice to be able to see both parents....often time that is an impossibility, especially in a situation where a bitch was sent to another breeder to be bred to a top dog.

Champion to Champion, while it is a terrific goal...what is more important is to line breed..it's the only way to set type and produce Champions.....You can breed Champion to Champion and the genetics just don't mix properly and you get something that is not suitable for the ring. Even if you repeat breed, you can never reproduce the same litter again. A breeder is lucky if you get one show dog in every 6 litters.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

You silly girl....advertising /grandsire champ!.....

Here's my read on looking at the parents....while it's nice, more often than not, a dam/sire will produce grandsire/granddam. Now, while it's nice to be able to see both parents....often time that is an impossibility, especially in a situation where a bitch was sent to another breeder to be bred to a top dog.

Champion to Champion, while it is a terrific goal...what is more important is to line breed..it's the only way to set type and produce Champions.....You can breed Champion to Champion and the genetics just don't mix properly and you get something that is not suitable for the ring. Even if you repeat breed, you can never reproduce the same litter again. A breeder is lucky if you get one show dog in every 6 litters.

Well, in cases such as your are describing the breeder should have some darn good pictures to show, and nice little pedigree to frame. How would you have answered the OP's question?

[Woogie Man]

Nancy...I wasn't trying to be disagreeable....just adding something to a subject that I admittedly don't have a full grasp of. And to clarify, looking at the parents can be a guide in choosing a puppy, but not so telling as some might imagine.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Nancy...I wasn't trying to be disagreeable....just adding something to a subject that I admittedly don't have a full grasp of. And to clarify, looking at the parents can be a guide in choosing a puppy, but not so telling as some might imagine.

No problem, and I admit, I don't have a handle on the pixie look versus the teddy bear or doll face, people have different opinions on what each term means. One breeder said she thought the perfect face was the distance from each corner of the eye would be equal to the distance between the corner of the eye and the tip of the nose, kind of like a perfect triangle, and that was something I could understand. So many people buy a puppy off a website based on the picture of the puppy, and I'm only trying to help these people. I'm not even sure the picture of the puppy is the puppy they actually will receive. That's why I think seeing the parents or the parent's pictures are important. If anyone has better suggestions on advice I can give these people, I would love to learn it.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

No problem, and I admit, I don't have a handle on the pixie look versus the teddy bear or doll face, people have different opinions on what each term means. One breeder said she thought the perfect face was the distance from each corner of the eye would be equal to the distance between the corner of the eye and the tip of the nose, kind of like a perfect triangle, and that was something I could understand. So many people buy a puppy off a website based on the picture of the puppy, and I'm only trying to help these people. I'm not even sure the picture of the puppy is the puppy they actually will receive. That's why I think seeing the parents or the parent's pictures are important. If anyone has better suggestions on advice I can give these people, I would love to learn it.

Nancy,

I don't know how I would answer the OP posters question. Since, pixie, doll face, teddy bear....just isn't in my criteria. I breed for standard and an overal balanced look. While I love a beautiful head, if the topline, movement, structure, health isn't there, a beautiful had won't cut it for me.

If one orders the Illustrated Standard from YTCA it gives a detailed explanation of the standard.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Nancy,

I don't know how I would answer the OP posters question. Since, pixie, doll face, teddy bear....just isn't in my criteria. I breed for standard and an overal balanced look. While I love a beautiful head, if the topline, movement, structure, health isn't there, a beautiful had won't cut it for me.

If one orders the Illustrated Standard from YTCA it gives a detailed explanation of the standard.

I totally agree with you on this point, but many pet owners don't understand terms like topline, movement, and structure. They understand a cute face, and overall size. I believe that's why many or even most puppy buyers come to YT looking for a certain size dog or a dog with pixie/teddybear/babydoll face, these terms mean something to them. I have seen dogs with a beautiful head and the back was really hunched, and I don't think most pet owners notice things like that, but once you see a beautifully straight back, the hunched back seems to stick out so much. I like the idea of breeding for an overall balanced look, and that why developing an eye is so crucial for breeders, but I don't know if it's really necessary for pet owners. Maybe not seeing the hunched back is better?

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I totally agree with you on this point, but many pet owners don't understand terms like topline, movement, and structure. They understand a cute face, and overall size. I believe that's why many or even most puppy buyers come to YT looking for a certain size dog or a dog with pixie/teddybear/babydoll face, these terms mean something to them. I have seen dogs with a beautiful head and the back was really hunched, and I don't think most pet owners notice things like that, but once you see a beautifully straight back, the hunched back seems to stick out so much. I like the idea of breeding for an overall balanced look, and that why developing an eye is so crucial for breeders, but I don't know if it's really necessary for pet owners. Maybe not seeing the hunched back is better?

I guess that's why we are here to educate.

I've recently placed a puppy girl in a home, two blocks away. She already had a yorkie. A darling little boy....tiny, beautiful head, but not very balanced; legs to long for it's back, soft coated and skinny. We developed a friendship long before she decided to obtain another. But, through that friendship, she learned a lot. The difference between breeders that are breeding dogs that appeal to the general pet population and breeding dogs to standard.....So, when she approached me for a dog, she wasn't concerned about size; her eye went to this girl that was a bit larger, but beautifully balanced, wonderful structure, great silk coat and wonderful temperament....although she does have a gorgeous head.....Her little girl is going to begin training to become a Therapy Dog.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I totally agree with you on this point, but many pet owners don't understand terms like topline, movement, and structure. They understand a cute face, and overall size. I believe that's why many or even most puppy buyers come to YT looking for a certain size dog or a dog with pixie/teddybear/babydoll face, these terms mean something to them. I have seen dogs with a beautiful head and the back was really hunched, and I don't think most pet owners notice things like that, but once you see a beautifully straight back, the hunched back seems to stick out so much. I like the idea of breeding for an overall balanced look, and that why developing an eye is so crucial for breeders, but I don't know if it's really necessary for pet owners. Maybe not seeing the hunched back is better?

I will say I've been approaced by many pet owners asking why my their pets don't look like my dogs.....many of these pet owners based their decision on that cute little head. But, aren't all puppies cute?