? papers

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I understand what you are saying Nancy, as a breeding dog should have all the attributes of a show dog. But, realistically it happens all the time....Some breeders just sell one said puppy on open or limited and the only difference to them is the price......No, you can't tell at 12 weeks of age if the puppy is of breeding/show quality.....at 8 weeks you are just starting to look at them for personality/temperament.....that's why those that are showing hold on to the dogs they are assessing for longer periods of time.....6 months or more...things go off....toplines go off when they are growing....high in the rear, low in the front.....funky little things, most of the time they come back...but, then there is that one, that doesn't.

I think I sent you one....but, you can do a search on the AKC website for Q registration.

You're right you did, I've been living in a fog all week, antihistamines. I think it just dawned on me what you were saying. I'll have to see if I can find those links, I did a search of the AKC and couldn't find anything yet. Everytime I do a search of "Q" registry, it takes me to the "Q"uestion and Answer part.

Is this the link? American Kennel Club - Conditional Registration. It seems like this has more to do with DNA results than someone who bought a dog without registration papers. I don't really think there is anyway the OP could register this dog with the AKC unless the breeder gave some type of registration number.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

You're right you did, I've been living in a fog all week, antihistamines. I think it just dawned on me what you were saying. I'll have to see if I can find those links, I did a search of the AKC and couldn't find anything yet. Everytime I do a search of "Q" registry, it takes me to the "Q"uestion and Answer part.

Is this the link? American Kennel Club - Conditional Registration. It seems like this has more to do with DNA results than someone who bought a dog without registration papers. I don't really think there is anyway the OP could register this dog with the AKC unless the breeder gave some type of registration number.

That's it: Nope you don't need a registration #

Dateline July 2007- AKC has found a solution for Pedigree Fraud (see links below), quite possibly prodded by recent legal actions and complaints. Subscriber Gloria Lambert, Tanya’s Toys, was the first to send the announcement regarding the new Conditional Registration. Without notice, discussion, or feedback from the fancy, we predict this notice will be met with mixed reactions:

IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDERS will embrace it as an incoming-saving solution for "mis-matings."

GOOD BREEDERS will see it as fair when compared to the cavalier manner in which AKC began accepting any pedigree "from the country of origin."

COMMERCIAL BREEDERS will rejoice. They can "rescue" or steal a purebred dog, DNA it, breed it three times and viola! it becomes valuable AKC Registered Breeding Stock.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Press Release - AKC Introduces Conditional Registration [Thursday, July 05, 2007]

New York, NY – The American Kennel Club® Conditional Registration program is now available for any AKC®-registered dog whose parent, through DNA testing, is found to be unidentifiable. Rather than canceling the registrations of the individual dog, all of its littermates and all of their offspring, AKC will change affected dogs' registration to the conditional status.

The conditional status will be clearly noted on the registration or pedigree of the unknown dog, as well as all progeny for three generations, with the letter Q starting the AKC registration number. Conditional status will only be granted in cases where the dog is believed to be purebred, but a registered parent is found to be incorrect.


"The Conditional Registration program will foster better relationships with dog owners who discover that there is an unidentified ancestor in their purebred dog's pedigree," said Thomas Sharp, Assistant Vice President of Compliance. "Now these owners will not be penalized with a revoked AKC registration and the loss of a majority of its benefits. For example, a dog with Conditional registration may still participate in any event in which ILP dogs may participate, including Obedience, Agility, and Rally."

Conditional registration also offers informed breeders the ability to keep these dogs and their offspring in a breed's gene pool. To register a litter out of a sire and dame with conditional registration, both parents must be DNA-profiled. After three generations of DNA-profiled parents, the registrations will revert to regular for the litter in the fourth generation. This protocol is in line with the acceptance of imported dogs with three generation pedigrees from the country of origin.

For more information visit: American Kennel Club - Conditional Registration or contact the AKC DNA Department at: dna@akc.org.

What I will tell you is that it is biting several YTCA members in the butt....that is why your breeder began the data base and is keepinig records. If we have any questions....we go to her.....she'll give us the information.

[YorkieRose]

AKC says sellers of registable puppies/dogs are to be sold with papers..if the papers are not available at the time of the sale, it is a red flag and you may never get them.. and in that case..all information needs to be provided at the time of the sale..sire/dam, reg numbers, DOB..

They also say, if a person buys a puppy without papers, with the understanding that papers will be furnished for payment of an additional amt of money, the buyer has ineffect forfeited any rights to the papers. If at some time the buyer wants papers the AKC can only advise them to work it out with the seller..
SO I guess AKC wants all pups to go with papers, but if they are not and the breeder wants more money for papers, they aren't getting involved..!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

That's it: Nope you don't need a registration #

Dateline July 2007- AKC has found a solution for Pedigree Fraud (see links below), quite possibly prodded by recent legal actions and complaints. Subscriber Gloria Lambert, Tanya’s Toys, was the first to send the announcement regarding the new Conditional Registration. Without notice, discussion, or feedback from the fancy, we predict this notice will be met with mixed reactions:

IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDERS will embrace it as an incoming-saving solution for "mis-matings."

GOOD BREEDERS will see it as fair when compared to the cavalier manner in which AKC began accepting any pedigree "from the country of origin."

COMMERCIAL BREEDERS will rejoice. They can "rescue" or steal a purebred dog, DNA it, breed it three times and viola! it becomes valuable AKC Registered Breeding Stock.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Press Release - AKC Introduces Conditional Registration [Thursday, July 05, 2007]

New York, NY – The American Kennel Club® Conditional Registration program is now available for any AKC®-registered dog whose parent, through DNA testing, is found to be unidentifiable. Rather than canceling the registrations of the individual dog, all of its littermates and all of their offspring, AKC will change affected dogs' registration to the conditional status.

The conditional status will be clearly noted on the registration or pedigree of the unknown dog, as well as all progeny for three generations, with the letter Q starting the AKC registration number. Conditional status will only be granted in cases where the dog is believed to be purebred, but a registered parent is found to be incorrect.


"The Conditional Registration program will foster better relationships with dog owners who discover that there is an unidentified ancestor in their purebred dog's pedigree," said Thomas Sharp, Assistant Vice President of Compliance. "Now these owners will not be penalized with a revoked AKC registration and the loss of a majority of its benefits. For example, a dog with Conditional registration may still participate in any event in which ILP dogs may participate, including Obedience, Agility, and Rally."

Conditional registration also offers informed breeders the ability to keep these dogs and their offspring in a breed's gene pool. To register a litter out of a sire and dame with conditional registration, both parents must be DNA-profiled. After three generations of DNA-profiled parents, the registrations will revert to regular for the litter in the fourth generation. This protocol is in line with the acceptance of imported dogs with three generation pedigrees from the country of origin.

For more information visit: American Kennel Club - Conditional Registration or contact the AKC DNA Department at: dna@akc.org.

What I will tell you is that it is biting several YTCA members in the butt....that is why your breeder began the data base and is keepinig records. If we have any questions....we go to her.....she'll give us the information.

This looks like it's just for those who aren't matching up with DNA results. Until DNA testing became popular, I imagine breeders like this slipped through the cracks. This should have no effect on the OP and registering her dog though. I don't think this is right, and I'm glad they are keeping records of those who've had the "Q" on their name. This sounds like something that the commercial breeders passed through. This is another reason that pet owners should be more involved, I think we could let the AKC know that we don't like this. One of the advantages of the AKC over other registries is that they do DNA testing, and now they're saying that just because it doesn't match the dog can still be registered with a Q limitation, and this only lasts three generations? For shame, good for the YTCA for keeping on top of this! I wonder if having a petition that AKC pet owners could sign would help?

[BamaFan121s]

Very interesting info posted in this thread.

Of course, the OP has never stated if the parents were AKC or otherwise, so it may be a moot point in her case, but it's interesting to know just the same.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

This looks like it's just for those who aren't matching up with DNA results. Until DNA testing became popular, I imagine breeders like this slipped through the cracks. This should have no effect on the OP and registering her dog though. I don't think this is right, and I'm glad they are keeping records of those who've had the "Q" on their name. This sounds like something that the commercial breeders passed through. This is another reason that pet owners should be more involved, I think we could let the AKC know that we don't like this. One of the advantages of the AKC over other registries is that they do DNA testing, and now they're saying that just because it doesn't match the dog can still be registered with a Q limitation, and this only lasts three generations? For shame, good for the YTCA for keeping on top of this! I wonder if having a petition that AKC pet owners could sign would help?

The DNA testing is for dogs bred 3 times in a year or 7 times in a lifetime....However, I do have my boys DNA tested as pups....I'm now beginning to DNA my girls too.

With the above, several loops holes have been discovered by Puppy Mills, BYBers, Unscrupulous Breeders, etc. Don't know what they are but, they are getting dogs AKC registered, that shouldn't be.

[JeanieK]

I had no idea that you could register a dog without papers with any registry. What good is a regisrty if you can register any dog.

I also had no ideas you could register a dog without papers with the AKc. Didn't know they made it that easy for people to register.. Here stupid me thought you actually had to have papers and numbers and such.

But I still think the OP should go back to the breeder if she wants papers.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

AKC says sellers of registable puppies/dogs are to be sold with papers..if the papers are not available at the time of the sale, it is a red flag and you may never get them.. and in that case..all information needs to be provided at the time of the sale..sire/dam, reg numbers, DOB..

They also say, if a person buys a puppy without papers, with the understanding that papers will be furnished for payment of an additional amt of money, the buyer has ineffect forfeited any rights to the papers. If at some time the buyer wants papers the AKC can only advise them to work it out with the seller..
SO I guess AKC wants all pups to go with papers, but if they are not and the breeder wants more money for papers, they aren't getting involved..!

I don't think they should get involved. buyers really need to learn to educate themselves first.

If you want the papers than work with the breeder. If it wasn't important to them when they bought the dog, why do they want them after the fact.

I do not see the OP as a victim here. We do not know what the agreement was, or why she chose to buy from this breeder. Was if because this puppy was cheaper than one from a more reputable breeder.

We don't even know who the breeder is.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I had no idea that you could register a dog without papers with any registry. What good is a regisrty if you can register any dog.

I also had no ideas you could register a dog without papers with the AKc. Didn't know they made it that easy for people to register.. Here stupid me thought you actually had to have papers and numbers and such.

But I still think the OP should go back to the breeder if she wants papers.

I think there may be some confusion, for many of the registries, you can register any dog you want to register, and the registry takes the breeder's word for what breed the dog is. These are called "paper registries", and they are in my opinion, just an attempt to mislead the buyer into thinking that their dog is "registered". As we all know, being a registered dog was at one time synonymous with being a "purebred", and the only registry was the AKC. Since then, many registries have come along and many cater to commercial breeders. Here's a site that explains the differences in registries. Registries

Mardelin was talking about the AKC now has something called a Q registry, and these are dogs whose DNA testing don't match correctly with offspring. In the past, these offspring would have been ineligible for registration, but now they can be registered with a "Q", and this will stay for 3-4? generations, obviously a good breeder would not want these dogs in their programs, and the YTCA is making an attempt to keep the list longer than three generations, I hope other breed clubs will do the same. Howver, this is not the same thing as being able to register any dog with the AKC, this is still not possible.

The AKC has other programs, but they are not registration programs, and sometimes people confuse this, where dogs are allowed to be placed on list and are able to compete in certain agility and training events, but are not eligible to take part of conformance events.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I think there may be some confusion, for many of the registries, you can register any dog you want to register, and the registry takes the breeder's word for what breed the dog is. These are called "paper registries", and they are in my opinion, just an attempt to mislead the buyer into thinking that their dog is "registered". As we all know, being a registered dog was at one time synonymous with being a "purebred", and the only registry was the AKC. Since then, many registries have come along and many cater to commercial breeders. Here's a site that explains the differences in registries. Registries

Mardelin was talking about the AKC now has something called a Q registry, and these are dogs whose DNA testing don't match correctly with offspring. In the past, these offspring would have been ineligible for registration, but now they can be registered with a "Q", and this will stay for 3-4? generations, obviously a good breeder would not want these dogs in their programs, and the YTCA is making an attempt to keep the list longer than three generations, I hope other breed clubs will do the same. Howver, this is not the same thing as being able to register any dog with the AKC, this is still not possible.

The AKC has other programs, but they are not registration programs, and sometimes people confuse this, where dogs are allowed to be placed on list and are able to compete in certain agility and training events, but are not eligible to take part of conformance events.

Ok so that makes more sense, you still have to have registration papers on the dog to register it, but if the DNA oes not match the sire's DNA then it is registered with a "Q".

But doesn't the breeder get into trouble if the DNA doesn't match? Don't the have to make it right and correct the papers the proper sire? How do they even know if the dog is purebred? Of course I realize that there are many dogs out there who are registered with fraudulant papers who are not DNA'd.

I would like to see all breeding dogs be DNA'd before their puppies can be registered.

[smommyto5]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I don't think they should get involved. buyers really need to learn to educate themselves first.

If you want the papers than work with the breeder. If it wasn't important to them when they bought the dog, why do they want them after the fact.

I do not see the OP as a victim here. We do not know what the agreement was, or why she chose to buy from this breeder. Was if because this puppy was cheaper than one from a more reputable breeder.

We don't even know who the breeder is.

no i dont care about the papers i was just asking a ? about them.
and the reason i bought from her was i fell in love if my pup when i seen him on the computer and i will be buying another one from her when her dog has more babies.
thank you all for the info im just trying to learn some stuff

[mommadog1]

I am sure if you called and asked her if you could get the papers on your puppy she would do it. Then you can just mail or paypal the extra cost and get your registration application.

I do hate it though when breeders charge more to have the papers (no talking paying for breeding rights). I have had that done to me before. I KNOW how much it costs to register a litter. She charged me 25.00 and then she registered the litter.. So I had to wait awhile.

I see so many breeders doing this, waiting to register a litter until someone asks for the reg. application/papers..

These kinds of breeders are usually bottom feeders.

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

She can still register puppies with other registries even though she has no papers, just not with the AKC, however, I would not suggest she does this.

The reason I believe that the breeder is unscrupulous is that the buyer says,
"when i agreed to buy the puppy she gave me a price then she told me if i wanted papers it would be more money when i went to pick him up 3 hours away. "

So the breeder told her yes the dogs were registered, and gave her a price, however, when she drove to the breeder's house, which was over three hours away, the breeder wanted more money than originally stated. The breeder should have made this clear over the phone, and it sounds like this wasn't told to her until she visited the breeder's house.

Yeah I agree with that..

And really, if your not a breeder why bother with another registry..You wont have the pups lineage (pedigree) doing it that way anyhow.

[WV~Yorkies]

I give AKC papers even if I give the pup away. I don't see no reason keeping them. I don't need them. I can't understand someone doing that. I do hold papers until the dogs are spayed.

[JeanieK]

I still say, we do not know the entire story. maybe she is holding the papers until the dog is spayed/neutered and the OP wants to know if there is a way to get around that.

If she wanted the papers she should have payed for them or said no deal. My thinking is the breeder would not risk losing the sale go for a few extra bucks.

So she needs to work it out with the breeder if she wants the papers.