size of breeding male - YorkieTalk.com Forums

kjcmsw · 03-28-2010, 11:49 AM

I hope I didn't make a mistake in telling a fellow Yorkie owner who is planning on breeding (her 5 and half/three quarter ?? pound female) that of her choice of studs she should choose the smaller of the two. Both studs (from different breeders) have championship backgrounds, one is 5 pounds and the other 2 1/2 pounds (I think it was 2 1/2 she said -- seems pretty tiny to me- which makes me think...is he really healthy?? are the little ones???). Apparently, the five pound stud has "more" championships in background and is a "perfect" specimen in looks and health, the smaller stud has championships but not has many and "perfect" is conformation, health, etc. (as perfect as that can be obviously) Anyway, everything seems to be pretty close to equal other than the size...and I've heard over and over again (on YT and elsewhere) that the male should be smaller (like 2/3 smaller) than the female. So is that correct? Or is equal sizes okay, all things else being fairly equal. Just when I think I have the answer to tell someone something I start doubting myself...maybe I shouldn't advise anyone on matters such as this, trust others to figure out things themselves.
~KC

My Sophia · 03-28-2010, 12:09 PM

I'm not a breeder myself, but researched it when I was thinking of breeding my girl. The male's size is important, but equally important is the size of his brothers, parents, grandparents, etc. For the tiny male, sure he may be tiny, but were his brothers, father and grandfather that small or where they six and seven pounders or even larger. And the same for the five pound male. Were his brothers etc. the same size as he is or were they smaller or maybe larger. A two pound male can sire a ten pound baby (grown) and a six pound male can sire a baby that never gets over two pounds. Have your friend check not just the potential sires but their sires and siblings as many generations back as possible.

kjcmsw · 03-28-2010, 12:30 PM

good point, seems like the 5 pound one had 5 pound/same approx size??? grandparents...can't remember about the smaller one. I'll pass that info along. I suppose in a way, everything has to be taken at face value as to whether or not "for sure" grand & great grandparents were of a certain size if a breeder didn't own/actually see the whole line back for generations. Thanks for responding.
~KC

BamaFan121s · 03-28-2010, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My Sophia

I'm not a breeder myself, but researched it when I was thinking of breeding my girl. The male's size is important, but equally important is the size of his brothers, parents, grandparents, etc. For the tiny male, sure he may be tiny, but were his brothers, father and grandfather that small or where they six and seven pounders or even larger.

I too see it mentioned a lot that you 'just need to breed to a smaller male.' That is not always the case and there are so many more factors that have to be considered. I cringe when I see that advice given--point in case, after enough times of reading it, people will take it to be fact and start passing along bad advice.

topknot · 03-28-2010, 12:51 PM

No that is not the case - you cannot go by size of stud. You do have to look at the studs parents and I even check out grandparents. Also siblings. A 4 pound stud could have a 12 pound brother and parent. So don't be mistaken by the stud's size itself. I like to see championships in there for the stud, and its parents, etc... The more champions the more I can research. If you do not have championship - it is left up to the stud owner telling you. In other words the less the champions the less you know. Also a 2 1/2 pound stud - you may have problems with the breeding itself. Harder for him to reach unless you do AI. And why would you want one that tiny? Yikes! If I am going to breed I am going to breed to the best I can. So I look at the standard. Also check pedigrees and health. You want the best match. What are the studs qualities? What are the bitch's qualities? Never double up on faults. I hope this helps. There is so much to breeding and you still might not make a best match, when the pups come you'll know later as they develop.

topknot · 03-28-2010, 01:14 PM

P.S. Any champions in the pedigree back behind the 3rd generations usually does not do any good. They are too far back to do much of any good in the gene pool with the pups. So if you are looking at champions in the pedigree be sure they are within the first 3 generations.

Mardelin · 03-28-2010, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by topknot

P.S. Any champions in the pedigree back behind the 3rd generations usually does not do any good. They are too far back to do much of any good in the gene pool with the pups. So if you are looking at champions in the pedigree be sure they are within the first 3 generations.

So, right Tina. The only time a dog that is not in the first 3 generations has any chance to contribute to the a pups genetics is when you see a certain dog repeated through the pedigree several times.

If one is breeding correctly....a pedigree should be studied backward and forward....knowing what is in those lines....siblings....etc. Also, one must look at their female with a critical eye....looking at faults within that girl. Find a stud that has a strong possibility of correcting those faults....and when finding that stud that has all those qualities....go to the sire of that stud. The reasoning is you know what the stud's sire is has produced; he's produced the qualities you want.

Again, breedinga larger female to a smaller male is a misnomer....The yorkie cannot be breed like say Poodles....phenotype to phenotype and know what your final results will be.

YorkieRose · 03-29-2010, 09:19 AM

Unless a male is oversized, I am not concerned about size. I had a 6 3/4 pound champion who repeatedly sired under 4 pounders to the point I stopped using him...no matter what size bitch I used, I never got a female big enough to breed and the males were peewee's...his parents and grandparents were champions of 5 to 7 pounds...
I have seen little guys sire huge pups...Ideally, I like a 5 to 6 pounder bred to a 5 to 6 pounder.

tammy8833 · 03-29-2010, 09:48 AM

i think this is a topic where there will be people that like one or the other

i personally have done smaller, and same size

my first breeding was my first yorkiepom small 5lbs to a out of standard in many ways yorkie that was some where around 11lbs..it was 3 babies..all breech..she pushed them out her self but looked like they were hurting her...she handled it like a champ..but then i used a male her size and had the exact same reaction

i have a female that is an excellent whelper with large litters she is 8-9lbs and i have used a male that was her size and no problems, puppies were 6-8oz at birth..i used a smaller male. 5lbs and same whelping process but smaller puppies 4-5oz at birth (the smaller male has small parents and siblings..the mother, my good whelper her parents were 6-7lbs and her siblings were the same..i always tell her she is pleasantly plumb like me.

but i didnt notice a different in the whelping process other then smaller babies on the second female. the smaller female seem to have the exact same reaction with a smaller male vs the larger male..but thats my dogs and their reactions..other dogs might be totally different

Mardelin · 03-29-2010, 11:33 AM

I like Pat am not concerned by the studs size unless oversized......

Each girl and male is different. So, many things come into play when breeding a yorkie. Lines (line breeding), free whelpers, etc. In addition, the female controls the size of the pups while in utero, so producing a pup at whelp that is 5 or 6 oz or 3 or 4 oz.....doesn't really tell you what the pup will be at adult hood.

YorkieRose · 03-29-2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I like Pat am not concerned by the studs size unless oversized......

Each girl and male is different. So, many things come into play when breeding a yorkie. Lines (line breeding), free whelpers, etc. In addition, the female controls the size of the pups while in utero, so producing a pup at whelp that is 5 or 6 oz or 3 or 4 oz.....doesn't really tell you what the pup will be at adult hood.

Oh, so true!!!

topknot · 03-29-2010, 02:24 PM

Yes, we are not talking about whelping size since this is determined by the bitch. My pups at birth run about 3 to 4 oz. I have used a 6 3/4 pound stud to as small as 4 pounds. I would never use a stud smaller than this. I am not into breeding for tinies and never will be. Just not what is best for the breed, IMHO. I see these people breeding for tinies and get this visual picture in my head - that if this continues pretty soon - the breed goes poof! and disappears. I know this really would not happen, but I just do not understand why - except people being greedy and that almighty buck is too important to them - not the breed.
By the way - the 6 3/4 pound stud bred to my 5 pound bitch produced a really small one for me. So you just do not know. Breeding is very complicating. Reason it is best to breed only to the best representation of the breed.

kjcmsw · 03-29-2010, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by topknot

P.S. Any champions in the pedigree back behind the 3rd generations usually does not do any good. They are too far back to do much of any good in the gene pool with the pups. So if you are looking at champions in the pedigree be sure they are within the first 3 generations.

I'll pass that along also. I really don't know all the details, just was told the stud had some championships and Brazilian lines (maybe). I concentrated on the size during the discussion when I was told about the studs. Thanks.

kjcmsw · 03-29-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by topknot

Yes, we are not talking about whelping size since this is determined by the bitch. My pups at birth run about 3 to 4 oz. I have used a 6 3/4 pound stud to as small as 4 pounds. I would never use a stud smaller than this. I am not into breeding for tinies and never will be. Just not what is best for the breed, IMHO. I see these people breeding for tinies and get this visual picture in my head - that if this continues pretty soon - the breed goes poof! and disappears. I know this really would not happen, but I just do not understand why - except people being greedy and that almighty buck is too important to them - not the breed.
By the way - the 6 3/4 pound stud bred to my 5 pound bitch produced a really small one for me. So you just do not know. Breeding is very complicating. Reason it is best to breed only to the best representation of the breed.

I don't think she was particularly trying to get "tinies" rather was thinking the smaller male might produce smaller pups thus safer for the female. I should have gotten more details. As I understand it, the larger male has consistently produced pups that at adulthood are around 5 pounds...didn't hear much about the smaller, but that doesn't mean she doesn't know the details. Thanks all, I will pass all this valuable information along. ~KC

03-28-2010, 11:49 AM	#1
kjcmsw YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Washington Posts: 837	size of breeding male I hope I didn't make a mistake in telling a fellow Yorkie owner who is planning on breeding (her 5 and half/three quarter ?? pound female) that of her choice of studs she should choose the smaller of the two. Both studs (from different breeders) have championship backgrounds, one is 5 pounds and the other 2 1/2 pounds (I think it was 2 1/2 she said -- seems pretty tiny to me- which makes me think...is he really healthy?? are the little ones???). Apparently, the five pound stud has "more" championships in background and is a "perfect" specimen in looks and health, the smaller stud has championships but not has many and "perfect" is conformation, health, etc. (as perfect as that can be obviously) Anyway, everything seems to be pretty close to equal other than the size...and I've heard over and over again (on YT and elsewhere) that the male should be smaller (like 2/3 smaller) than the female. So is that correct? Or is equal sizes okay, all things else being fairly equal. Just when I think I have the answer to tell someone something I start doubting myself...maybe I shouldn't advise anyone on matters such as this, trust others to figure out things themselves. ~KC

03-28-2010, 12:51 PM	#5
topknot Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: GA Posts: 3,787	No that is not the case - you cannot go by size of stud. You do have to look at the studs parents and I even check out grandparents. Also siblings. A 4 pound stud could have a 12 pound brother and parent. So don't be mistaken by the stud's size itself. I like to see championships in there for the stud, and its parents, etc... The more champions the more I can research. If you do not have championship - it is left up to the stud owner telling you. In other words the less the champions the less you know. Also a 2 1/2 pound stud - you may have problems with the breeding itself. Harder for him to reach unless you do AI. And why would you want one that tiny? Yikes! If I am going to breed I am going to breed to the best I can. So I look at the standard. Also check pedigrees and health. You want the best match. What are the studs qualities? What are the bitch's qualities? Never double up on faults. I hope this helps. There is so much to breeding and you still might not make a best match, when the pups come you'll know later as they develop. Last edited by topknot; 03-28-2010 at 12:54 PM.

03-29-2010, 09:48 AM	#9
tammy8833 Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: VA Posts: 2,775	i think this is a topic where there will be people that like one or the other i personally have done smaller, and same size my first breeding was my first yorkiepom small 5lbs to a out of standard in many ways yorkie that was some where around 11lbs..it was 3 babies..all breech..she pushed them out her self but looked like they were hurting her...she handled it like a champ..but then i used a male her size and had the exact same reaction i have a female that is an excellent whelper with large litters she is 8-9lbs and i have used a male that was her size and no problems, puppies were 6-8oz at birth..i used a smaller male. 5lbs and same whelping process but smaller puppies 4-5oz at birth (the smaller male has small parents and siblings..the mother, my good whelper her parents were 6-7lbs and her siblings were the same..i always tell her she is pleasantly plumb like me. but i didnt notice a different in the whelping process other then smaller babies on the second female. the smaller female seem to have the exact same reaction with a smaller male vs the larger male..but thats my dogs and their reactions..other dogs might be totally different __________________ Tammy YT Gallery Lil Girl Princess & Theodore *Gidget R.I.P** Last edited by tammy8833; 03-29-2010 at 09:49 AM.

03-29-2010, 11:33 AM	#10
Mardelin Mardelin Yorkshire Terriers Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: California Posts: 14,776	I like Pat am not concerned by the studs size unless oversized...... Each girl and male is different. So, many things come into play when breeding a yorkie. Lines (line breeding), free whelpers, etc. In addition, the female controls the size of the pups while in utero, so producing a pup at whelp that is 5 or 6 oz or 3 or 4 oz.....doesn't really tell you what the pup will be at adult hood. __________________ Mardelin *Yorkshire* *Terriers*

03-28-2010, 12:09 PM	#2
My Sophia YT Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA Posts: 467	I'm not a breeder myself, but researched it when I was thinking of breeding my girl. The male's size is important, but equally important is the size of his brothers, parents, grandparents, etc. For the tiny male, sure he may be tiny, but were his brothers, father and grandfather that small or where they six and seven pounders or even larger. And the same for the five pound male. Were his brothers etc. the same size as he is or were they smaller or maybe larger. A two pound male can sire a ten pound baby (grown) and a six pound male can sire a baby that never gets over two pounds. Have your friend check not just the potential sires but their sires and siblings as many generations back as possible.

03-28-2010, 12:30 PM	#3
kjcmsw YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Washington Posts: 837	good point, seems like the 5 pound one had 5 pound/same approx size??? grandparents...can't remember about the smaller one. I'll pass that info along. I suppose in a way, everything has to be taken at face value as to whether or not "for sure" grand & great grandparents were of a certain size if a breeder didn't own/actually see the whole line back for generations. Thanks for responding. ~KC

03-28-2010, 01:14 PM	#6
topknot Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: GA Posts: 3,787	P.S. Any champions in the pedigree back behind the 3rd generations usually does not do any good. They are too far back to do much of any good in the gene pool with the pups. So if you are looking at champions in the pedigree be sure they are within the first 3 generations.

03-29-2010, 09:19 AM	#8
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	Unless a male is oversized, I am not concerned about size. I had a 6 3/4 pound champion who repeatedly sired under 4 pounders to the point I stopped using him...no matter what size bitch I used, I never got a female big enough to breed and the males were peewee's...his parents and grandparents were champions of 5 to 7 pounds... I have seen little guys sire huge pups...Ideally, I like a 5 to 6 pounder bred to a 5 to 6 pounder.

03-29-2010, 02:24 PM	#12
topknot Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: GA Posts: 3,787	Yes, we are not talking about whelping size since this is determined by the bitch. My pups at birth run about 3 to 4 oz. I have used a 6 3/4 pound stud to as small as 4 pounds. I would never use a stud smaller than this. I am not into breeding for tinies and never will be. Just not what is best for the breed, IMHO. I see these people breeding for tinies and get this visual picture in my head - that if this continues pretty soon - the breed goes poof! and disappears. I know this really would not happen, but I just do not understand why - except people being greedy and that almighty buck is too important to them - not the breed. By the way - the 6 3/4 pound stud bred to my 5 pound bitch produced a really small one for me. So you just do not know. Breeding is very complicating. Reason it is best to breed only to the best representation of the breed.