Yup...but here's the difference...pet breeders and show breeders are two different set of breeders and no I don't mean unethical but they vs. them will always see this differently until a pet breeder actually gets involved in the show world even if they never set foot in the ring or have a dog in the ring and walk a mile in our shoes. I can actually say I started out as a pet breeder and one of those years ago that oh I want a puppy out of my sweet darling little girl....now that I feel in love with the yorkie breed and the show world boy have I learned alot...but once it gets to the point I can't be involved in the show world whether it be in the ring or just being involved I'll be out of breeding...I believe it goes hand in hand.

Donna

I contacted the original poster and she's looking for it.

EXACTLY...and you should judge me...AS A BREEDER! You should look at my dogs and judge them as to the standard...believe me I would not be offended if you said.."Pat, you dropped the ball with that breeding"...that is why we show dogs...I want opinions.

I know I've dropped the ball on a couple of breedings. Breeding the same pair that produced a wonderful litter. Then the next time around......what the heck happened?

Yup it's what you do after you drop the ball that will set a good breeder apart from a bad one :)

I have to tell a story here and it doesn't have anything to do with a Parti but me as a breeder....

I was "given" a 6 month old bitch for "FREE" with an excellent pedigree and was given full rights by a reputable breeder not from TX. As the story goes this bitch at 9 months was NICE, had excellent coat color to die for actually, very nice texture, very silky and OMG structure and movement to die for...great ear set, nice bite, great pigmentation around the eyes and an awesome personality, OMG a bitch to just die for BUT her "ONE" and "ONLY" fault was she was big boned and 8 pounds...I sent her back to her breeder when others would have taken her great qualities and bred her to get what fantastic qualities she had but I as a breeder I couldn't live with that one particular fault....so when I type I mean what I say...I hope some were interested in this story and can learn from it. I just wanted to share with you my story and my ethics...

Donna Bird

AND..that statement is pure gold.
We all make mistakes, but to repeat and repeat the same breedings, diregarding the faults is foolish..and my pet peeve is when a breeder says..."I am a pet breeder, I do not belong to any clubs, my goal is to breed healthy pets..so none of this applies to me...
WELL, guess what..I am a pet breeder first, show breeder second and it all applies to me if I never go near a show again.

The whole question of ethics, to me, concerns much more than the dogs one produces and whether or not one follows the code of a breed club. Ethics, for me, is a value/belief system that guides my actions. I should be judged by my actions and how they affect others, either in a positive or negative way.

My dogs live in my house and are all family members. They are all much loved and I'll do without to provide for their needs first. For me, anything less would be unethical, regardless of their quality. Beyond the care I provide, it is my obligation to find ideal homes for any pups I place. These are just a couple of very basic things that are guided by my ethics.

By my definition, I would think that there are some show breeders that I would consider unethical, even when they abide by the parent club's rules. Though they may produce wonderful dogs, it's the behind the scenes things that would really determine their personal ethics.

As you all know, there are several breeds under review in the U.K. for a change in standard where the standard is believed to adversely affect the breed's health. Would it be considered ethical to breed dogs to a standard that you knew was not in the best interests of a dog's health?

Another case to consider would be the Silky Terrier. They are a breed comprised of the Yorkshire and Australian Terriers. Though certified as pure bred by AKC, they best fit the definition of a designer dog (mixing of 2 breeds). AKC did change their policy regarding recognition of new breeds 1 year after allowing the Silky in. I wonder how purists feel about the ethics of all that? They are now pure bred, are allowed to be shown, and are considered legitimate. No offense intended to Silky owners...just trying to make a point about the relativity of ethics.

I just think the word ethical is overused and sometimes mis-used. I feel the same about the word 'reputable'. I don't consider myself a 'reputable' breeder at this time. Maybe in a few years, if and when I get a reputation, then I would be reputable. For now, I'm content to be 'responsible'.

I do breed only standard Yorkies and have no other aspiration other than to one day produce an ideal Yorkie. In that sense, I am a breed purist. I do see the predicament of Parti breeders, though. While many may be in it just for the novelty and $, there are some within that community that have serious goals for their dogs. They have no venue to showcase their dedication.

I mentioned in an earlier post that they maybe should have gone their own way 150 years ago and started a path as a separate breed. There obviously were Parti fanciers in those days. It seems like it may have been possible at the inception of the Kennel Club; now I"m not sure there is a remedy for them. If there are serious Parti breeders out there, I wouldn't automatically call them unethical but would judge them by their individual actions.

O.K., I'll shut up now :D.

You know, I read posts like this all the time on Yorkietalk and I wonder why other parti breeders don't speak up and say something. If someone had posted something like this concerning a standard yorkie, you could be sure that there would be other breeders speaking up, and saying that he should be evaluated before you decide to breed him. This is a perfect example of why I call parti breeders one-trait breeders. If you really do love the parti's, you will try and help other parti breeders become better breeders, not just help more breeders to become parti breeders.

You know, you are absolutely correct!!! I don't see the Parti breeders doing this....

Donna

[QUOTE=Nancy1999;3017803]You know, I read posts like this all the time on Yorkietalk and I wonder why other parti breeders don't speak up and say something. If someone had posted something like this concerning a standard yorkie, you could be sure that there would be other breeders speaking up, and saying that he should be evaluated before you decide to breed him. This is a perfect example of why I call parti breeders one-trait breeders. If you really do love the parti's, you will try and help other parti breeders become better breeders, not just help more breeders to become parti breeders.[/QUOTE

Nancy,

Where in the heck did you find that post?

If you click the little arrow at the end of the "Originally Posted by motherhen" part, it will take you right to the thread. Here's a link to the thread. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/my-...ml#post3017515

Considering the pups is only 5 week and you cannot tell until he is older if he will be breed material.
The fact that the person is a breeder and a member here probably knows what health clearances is needed .
And
If the person ask for advice I'm sure our Parti breeders will be more then willing to help her.

I think we already have a Queen Bee who constantly want to give advice when not asked, tells everyone how they should breed or how to place their dogs.
There is a time to give advice and a time to keep your nose out of others business.

Do you mean that Parti breeders believe any yorkie that is a parti can be breed as long as he's passed health clearances? If that’s true than don't tell me how you love the Parti's, and you're not breeding for the money. Part of loving something is being protective of it. Obviously, this dog was sold as a breeder, how can you sell a puppy as a breeder, unless you are a one-trait breeder?

We have lots of members I guess you could call Queen bees, I consider myself a worker bee, and I am trying to help protect the breed by encouraging others to seek out knowledgeable ethical breeders. The breeders I see as ethical don't take the easy route they speak up when the see damage being done to the breed.

I absolutely floored that you are criticizing someone who gave advice on placing pups; this is such a very important step in the breeding process. This forum belongs to everyone, not just those who breed as a business.

I just find it insulting for a NON Breeder to tell a breeders how they should breed or sell their pups.

If one asked how do I go about breeding or selling my Pups
(advice asked for).
Then by all means give them advice.

Seeking out knowledgeable ethical breeders, come in more forms then just those from YTCA. We have many good NON show breeders.
I also find it odd that when someone questions a show breeder there are those who jump on the person, "With how dare you question them".
But when NON show breeders are questioned, nothing is really said.
When we hear all the time it is good to question breeders.

You seem to think all Parti breeder are one trait breeders.
You know nothing about the hope and dreams of the serious Parti breeder.

When YTCA change the founding standard to include the Bl & Tans and Lt. Blue and gold, they deviated from the standard to suit their needs.
But change it back in 2007 to Steel Blue and Gold.

Are ethical breeders going to stop breeding all those off color Champions that no longer fit the standard ?
The answer we get is "Well its OK because it enhances the program".
This is a double standard; It's either Right or Wrong.
IMO..I would say 90% of breeders are not breeding to the color standard.
Nothing is said about this but Parti breeders are being slammed for doing the same thing.

Face it.
Not everyone is going to agree on everything, that is just the way it is.
One can have a love for more then just the standard color.
As I see it Like it or Not the Parti's are here to stay.

It does not matter whether the pup is a parti color or a black and tan or purple for that matter. It is a yorkshire terrier and and has nothing to do with being a one trait breeder, we think we don't have berate them in public. PM's get better responses instead of trying to continuously humiliate and embarrass them in a public forum. For another thing , maybe she is just joking, do you know that she is not? Do you know anything about how she is getting the pup or anything about the so called sale?? I wouldn't think so, Until you have facts it really isn't necessary to beat up on these people. She doesn't even have the pup yet, anything could happen between now and it being a year old.
And lastly we the parti breeders,Strike that, I cant speak for others, but I don't have to say anything, you guys do enough of that for everyone that has a yorkshire terrier.

A bit of information: The body of the AKC/YTCA standard was not touched, it is in the same form since the nineteen fifties. The only thing that was added was this.

Disqualification
.
Any solid color or combination of colors other than blue and tan as described above. Any white markings other than a small white spot on the forechest that does not exceed 1 inch at its longest dimension.
Approved July 10, 2007
Effective Oct. 1, 2007

Ok, Thanks for the info.
Are you saying the YTCA never included the Black and tans or the Lt. Blue and golds?
Can you tell me, why these off colors were allowed in the show ring and winning ??
I know some can look at a black dog and say it's black while another person would call it steel blue.
But there is no question when you look at a Lt. Blue it's not a steel blue.
I know some breeders colored dyed dogs and do other things hide faults to fit the standard.
It seem to me this is a double standard.
It ok to breed /show these off colors and cheat to fit the standard.
But will slam others for breeding the Tri colors.

I feel the need to express my feelings on this topic. As someone who has always protected the yorkshire terrier breed to the AKC standard I am appalled by some of the comments on this thread. Before you even ask yes I have shown and yes I have bred.

First off just because someone is a member of the YTCA does not make them a reputable moral person, let alone a reputable moral breeder! I can state this because I know this for a fact!

Secondly how many of the members of the YTCA have dyed the coat on a yorkshire terrier they have shown in a conformation match? My answer would be many of the YTCA members have dyed coat. Why would they dye a coat? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT MEET THE STANDARD OF WHAT THE COLOR OF THE COAT IS SUPPOSE TO BE! Maybe you should worry more about the members of the YTCA that do not follow the standard instead of bashing the people who are not members of the YTCA.

Just because some of you are members of the YTCA it does not make you God! Last I remember AKC recognizes the Parti Color of the yorkshire terrier.

Perfect!!!!
 

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Below is listed the AKC alternate color codes for the Yorkshire Terrier. No where is there a box for a Parti color.

Yes, AKC allows for Parti color registration. It is my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong, when registering these Partis all one has to do is write in the colors and submit your form with the $20.00.

Colors and Markings


Use this form to get a complete list of the standard and alternate colors available for AKC recognized and FSS® listed breeds.

Description: The name of the color.

Type: Standard or alternate. This is the classification of the color for show purposes. Please refer to the breed standard for specifics regarding registered breeds. FSS® breed standards are not available online. Please e-mail the FSS® department if you have color questions regarding an FSS® breed.


Note: (FSS®) refers to Foundation Stock Service® breeds and (Misc) refers to Miscellaneous Class breeds.

Colors

Description Type Code

Black & Gold S 234
Black & Tan S 018
Blue & Gold S 041
Blue & Tan S 044

Pictures have to be included with registration of the Parti and the color code is 014

This is way off the subject but a good chance for me to ask you something - can you please tell your friend that I MISS her ? I know she isn't on her computer too much these days but please tell her I said hi -
Thanks Pat

With that being said, Is that not being unethical? To cover up flaws or coloring by dying the dog to show? If it is dyed, is it not then a counterfeit, as not being in its natural state as it should be for showing.

Typed in color code 014 and it took me to this:

Colors and Markings

Lhasa Apso

Below is a list of the colors and markings available for this breed. Please refer to the breed standard for descriptions and the difference in types.

Description: The name of the color and/or markings.

Type: Standard or alternate. This is the classification of the color for show purposes. Please refer to the breed standard for specifics regarding this breed.

Code: This is the code entered on an application for registration of a dog.

Colors

Description Type Code

Black S 007
Black & Tan S 018
Cream S 076
Golden S 093
Grizzle S 109
Red S 140
Red Gold S 152
White S 199
Blue A 037
Charcoal A 331
Gray A 100
Liver A 123
Silver A 176

Markings

Description Type Code

Black Mask With Tips S 054
Black Tips S 053
Brindle S 051
Parti-Color S 038
Sable S 026
White Markings S 014
Sable, White Markings A 067

Yorkshire Terrier color codes, Partis are Blue and tan or gold with white markings

I am trying to get this straight, what you are saying is that anyone that breeds Parti colored or other any other color than the standard color is unethical, Is that correct?

Now if you look at this list (S) beside the 041 Blue and Gold and the 044 Blue and Tan is for standard.
Everything else is (A) Alternate meaning all those dog are out of standard.
AKC only list a few on paper as choices, other wise the list would be to long.

I don't believe anyone is calling those that breed Parti's as unethical but for a one trait color and it does deviate from the breed standard. Those that breed for other colors other than what the standard calls for are not breeding correctly, not to say unethically just not correct. As I've stated many times before there will always be rules "standards" we all should live by and follow and when you don't follow the rules or laws for that matter we are not doing something right. As much as one tries to justify what they are doing....if the speed limit says 55 you don't go 70...but of course you are going to have someone that goes over the speed limit but there are consquences to your actions...am I perfect as a breeder no, is there a perfect yorkie no, do I drive over 55 yes, have I gotten a ticket absolutely...so until the standard changes I will not change my opinion PERIOD! Please don't hate me because I try and uphold my convictions....

Donna Bird

I'm not God and never claimed to be, nor would I ever claim to be God...I don't think I've bashed anyone thus far....and I have many breeder friends that are NOT YTCA members :)

Donna