Nancy again (you know the one with the comical comment). Would you mind explaining how it is done properly? So puppies sleep through the whole process! From my own experience and listening to the youtube video-A Yorkshire Gives Birth- it IS "traumatic" and would love to know your secret!! I have attached a link to the video of a Yorkie tail docking, it happens in the middle-ish of the video. I am not making this up!

I know this is a touchy subject, and I don't think tail docking is the biggest issue facing dogs today - I'd say the biggest issue is puppy mills.

However, I would love to see tail docking banned in the US. It seems wrong to put a puppy through any pain for something that is not only cosmetic, but arbitrary. If you are used to seeing stubby tails, long tails will look "wrong" - but the reverse is ALSO true. Once long tails are standard in the US, as they are in many parts of the world, a stubby tail will look strange.

The fact is also that Yorkies have really beautiful tails, and they use those tails to express themselves, just as all dogs do. I grow the hair on Thor's tail extra long so I can at least see it wag.

I also want to say that I remember reading a thread here a few months ago about a first time breeder who was getting some mentoring from YT. She had the puppies docked at the vet's, and she said she was really shocked at how awful it seemed. She also said that it really upset the mother dog, to which some experienced breeders here responded, "oh yeah, you should never let the mother dog see it, she'll freak out." So I think honestly, a lot of people do know it's painful for the animal, it's just that they are very used to it.

I've seen that before and it makes me sooo sad & so glad that Jackson didn't have to go through this.

I know they forget about it and it doesn't traumatize them for life anything.

But it just IRKS me that it's done for HUMAN "pleasure" and what humans think is acceptable on a dog. I just think it's dumb personally.

That's not to say dogs with the little nubs aren't cute. I just find it selfish of humans just because "it looks better."

To me - it's the same as cropping ears. "Oh, I don't like my dogs floppy ears -- let's cut them so they point up. Just because they look better that way." I know Yorkies don't do the cropped ears but the Boxers, etc.

:thumbup::thumbup:

Puppy Mills are a MUCH bigger Issue!
 

I agree that Puppy Mills are a MUCH bigger issue. I also agree that people/breeders that dock puppies tails are accustom/desensitized to it.:ghug: :ghug: :ghug:

We can tackle more then one issue at a time. The laws are changing a lot, and all the time. More laws are being passed every day. You will never be able to get rid of mills unfortunately. Also have to say that commercial breeders are not all puppy mills. I have seen horrid conditions with a handful of dogs and immaculate care of dogs in commercial breeding.

But I want to see some regulations if not an outright ban on docking a dew claw removal as well as all other cosmetic/amuptation surgeries. Doesn't bother me if it is a hot top or not, I think it should be talked about and I think we can all learn something by doing that.;)

Thank you for sharing that. I have never seen the twisting off the tail before. And I don't understand who the heck thought up that barbaric way. Even try to clamp your finger? forget it, that is painful. So clamp it, and twist and the pup is in obvious pain and fear. Then the dewclaw, he said it, THUMB.. that 5th toe indeed is a toe, and one that is actually used by dogs. It is the same as if you were to cut off your own thumb.

I have done months of research on docking and cutting off dewclaws and also got opinions and advice from my vet and other vets. It is extremely rare that a dog will get their dewclaws yanked off, torn, etc. When they run they use that toe, when they mate they use it to hold onto the female making mating easier for a reluctant female. I could go on, but the information is out there if you look.

That video was VERY informative and the breeder is impressive, but the fact remains it is very painful and traumatic, and YES it does stay with them for life even if they don't remember outright, which who really can say if they do or don't. Dogs have LONG memories and short lives so who can really say they don't remember.

In the UK they had banned breeders from doing any of this and made it so only vets could do it. Now it is illegal, and can only be done for medical reasons.

If more people in the US were to stop docking, and more were to show them in the ring, the more normal it will look and the more judges would accept them as well.

I love Yorkitalk
 

Such GREAT comments from all over the world!. I agree dicussing these "Hot Topics'' is the beginning to changing them!:animal36

''Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. In fact, it's the only thing that ever has."
Margaret Mead 1901-1978

I'm not a breeder and I don't like thinking of the pain the puppies goes through. It wouldn't stop me from buying a puppy with a tail. If it was outlawed, then it would be a non-issue with standard.

I do agree that puppy mills are a bigger issue for sure.
I disagree about commercial breeders not being puppy mills. I don't care if the place is immaculate, if you are churning out a bunch of puppies that you are considered a commercial breeder, that is a puppy mill. IMO!

For some breeds in tis country the docking ban has been a good thing as certain members of society no longer want them as status symbols, they no-longer look tough enough, unfortunately they've now turned to other breeds and crosses, of these breeds.

Yes, beautiful tails like Britster's Jackson. I'm honestly jealous. I also let Kaji's tail hair grow extra long. I love being able to see it wag. Actually he shakes it! Don't get me wrong, his little nub is very cute, but I find the full tail to be more expressive. The dew claws I see more of a reason for those getting removed. My old roomie's dog's dew claws were literally just barely hanging on. If she would to get them caught on something, I know she would be losing them for sure and at her age it would be very painful.

Ya know, I've seen this video and dozen of others that have been posted on this site. :rolleyes: All I can tell you is what I have experienced first hand, which was 3 out of 4 pups not even waking up while their tails were docked. I watched my vet, she rubbed a bit of gel-like novaciane on the tail, waiting a few minutes, sniped it, put quick stop on, and handed them back to me. Never a whimper from them. So apparently, she did something right. If your experiences and the videos you've watched show you something different, well, don't really know what to tell you. Just offering my experience, which I believe I am entitled to do. I never claimed you were 'making it up,' although I do think it's blown out of proportion by some at times. All I can do is share my experience, which I believe I am entitled to do. Sorry if it's a disappointment that not every experience with docking is as 'traumatic' as the next.

So, have you ever cut your thumb off in order to be able to make that comparison, or is it just a theory? Just curious...:p

Actually very close to completely cutting it off.. However, I think you know I meant that you need your thumb, just as a dog needs their 5th digit. Yes you can learn to live without it but unless there is a medical reason for removing your thumb then why would you do it?!

I also have my experience to go by, as well as research that proves they use the 5th digit. I researched for over a year before I finally decided not to dock and remove dewclaws. It was something I took lightly and just decided not to do one day.

You have the choice to dock or not and I would never tell someone not to do it even if I don't agree with it. That is not my right. But like you, I am also entitled to express my beliefs:)

I have never seen a puppy sleep through having their tail and dewclaws removed. Not saying you are wrong, but I do find it really hard to believe..sorry but that is from my own experiences over the last 30 years.

LOL...we have something in common then. I did cut my finger off...on a swing set, go figure! :eek:

You have your research and experience and I have mine. Clearly they are very different experiences, thus differing opinions. Pretty frequent thing...no worries! :)

My dad's friend cut off his thumb while chopping up wood. He said it was VERY painful and he's a tough dude. He was screaming & crying. It didn't bleed a ton though surprisingly.

Egads! My husband this last summer almost lost his pinky, it was disgusting to see but I took pictures of it..LOL.. He cut off the tip of the ring figure. The pinky was bad, and broken too. He did it while putting in a fence for his moms friends. I think it is called a pile driver, ha I cannot remember. but he pulled it out to far and then coming back down it got his fingers.

I cut my thumb to the bone, well into the bone actually from a jar of preservative I use to make lotion. It was a small jar too but the lid was stuck (I almost used my teeth:eek:) I barely turned it and it broke and immediately went right through my thumb at the bottom knuckle. I know, gross huh..

As long as there are people, there are going to be differences of opinions. And I always respect someone else's opinion..or I at least try to.I am not as perfect as my dogs think I am;)

Oh and I should probably make it clear I have not bred any yorkies yet. I have a couple years to wait yet before I can do that. My first yorkie was supposed to be my foundation bitch but she ended up being way to small. She is about 3.6 pounds, last time I checked she was 4 pounds but it wasn't until after she was spayed that she gained, and it was chubby weight..lol.. So cut out the higher calorie stuff and that helped. She is 4 years old.

I know how some people feel about "designer" dogs, but I breed 2nd and 3rd generation cockapoos. I started the American cockapoo club in order to keep tract and work towards making them a recognized breed. The club became to much for me to handle, it was hard getting people to help. So I sold it, it is doing very well, and we are getting closer. Cockapoo is a dumb name and eventually we WILL change it, but we are getting closer to the goal.

I love cockapoos, they are great dogs. I used to dock their tails and dewclaws but I just couldn't find a good reason to keep doing it and more and more people were asking for their pups to have the tails left on. The standard calls for them to be either way but more and more cockapoo breeders are leaving the tails natural.

Now when it comes to the yorkies, i have to be 100% honest here and say that i am not sure what I will do when it comes time. As much as I loathe docking, it is part of the standard and it is what people want to see..

So I am thinking I will give the option to people on my waiting list and dock otherwise. BUT I am going to find a vet who will numb the tail first and who will not stitch, I think this is what hurts them the most!

When I was doing it myself I never stitched. When my vet or any vet did it they stitched, it was awful.

Towards the end right before I quit docking I started doing the tails and 5th digit as soon as they were born and I found they barely seemed to feel it, especially the dews. and it was also easier because they were so soft and tiny.

Sometimes my cockapoo babies have back dews and I always remove those, they are always very floppy and have no bone in them, but they grow nails and these DO catch because they are so floppy. Sometimes they even have doubles back there.. it is weird but I have been told it happens with most breeds, just not all the time. I can have a litter of 6 and have only 2 like that.:confused:

I found some interesting definations of Puppy Mills
 

Puppymills - a definition

The Humane Society of the United States provides this definition of puppymills: "Puppymills are breeding facilities that produce purebred puppies in large numbers. The puppies are sold either directly to the public via the Internet, newspaper ads, at the mill itself, or are sold to brokers and pet shops across the country."
AAS (Animal Advocates Society) would not include the word "purebred" as many puppymills are breeding popular crossbreeds that are not AKC or CKC registered.
The Canadian Kennel Club definition: The members of the National Companion Animal Coalition(NCAC),consisting of;the Ministry of Agriculture,Canadian Kennel Club,Canadian Veterinary Medical Association,Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council,Canadian Federation of Humane Societies and the RCMP have developed the following agreed upon definition of a "puppymill".
...A puppymill has been defined by the NCAC as a high-volume, sub-standard dog breeding operation which sells purebred or mixed breed dogs, to unsuspecting buyers. Some of the characteristics common to puppymills are:
a)Sub-standard health and/or environmental issues;
b)Sub-standard animal care,treatment,and/or socialization;
c)Sub-standard breeding practices which lead to genetic defects or hereditary disorders;
d)Erroneous or falsified certificates of registration,pedigrees,and/or genetic background.
Note: These conditions may also exist in small volume or single-breed establishments.
The AAS definition:

A puppymill is any place or person or business that:
1. Breeds more than one dog at a time;
2. Sells pups without screening of the purchaser;
3. Sells pups to retail pet stores and puppy resellers;
And/or keeps the dogs and pups:
1. Isolated from human interaction: i.e. exclusively in kennels, sheds, garages, trailers, pens, basements and closets;
2. In conditions generally accepted by the public to be dirty and unhealthy: in cages and buildings that lack light; outside in rain and cold; in mud; feces and urine;
3. In a condition generally accepted by veterinarians as unhealthy; skin, ear, eye, penis and vaginal/utereal infections; rotten and broken teeth; overgrown nails; parasitic infestations; and other disease and unhealthy conditions.
puppymills generally breed pure-breds or popular mixes and charge several hundred dollars to a thousand dollars per pup. Many puppymills are registered with the Canadian Kennel Club.
Backyard breeders - a definition

A backyard breeder is a person who:
1. Breeds only one dog at a time;
2. May breed their dog just once, but for the purpose of making little money;
3. May repeat breed the same dog;
4. May dispose of one dog and obtain another (more lucrative) to breed;
5. Often keeps the dog and pups in a yard, garage, shed, basement, closet, or pen;
6. May sell puppies as young as four weeks, with no vaccinations, and for as little as $50, although some backyard breeders sell pups of more desirable breeds for several hundred dollars each.
7. Often breeds the pups that end up being killed in pounds when they are abandoned as unwanted adults: cross breeds of German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Huskies, Pit Bulls, and other large breed dogs.
A backyard breeder does not include the family or person that breeds the family dog once and keeps the pups in the house with them, making sure the pups are well-socialized and healthy, does not give away or sell the pups until they are 10-12 weeks old, and carefully screens prospective adoptors, making several homes visits and refusing a pup to unsuitable people.

I would have to agree that any facility that has dogs
1. Isolated from human interaction: i.e. exclusively in kennels, sheds, garages, trailers, pens, basements and closets;


is a Puppy Mill, regardless of how clean it is! (Commercial Dog Breeding Facilities). I believe dogs in these facilities are puppy making machines for profit ONLY! They also usually sell to brokers /pet shops and are not able to screen future owners, which fuels the Puppy Mill furnace!:( In my opinion! They can not be a healthy, happy, well adjusted dog if they live in a kennel/cage. I think Commercial Dog Breeding Facilities are Puppy Mills!

:thumbup::thumbup:

Mine didn't bleed a whole lot either...got it at the first knuckle. It didn't hurt when I did it, but hours later when the feeling came back and leeches were stuck on the end of it :eek: to suck out the clotted blood (yuck!), that was a different story!

Yikes! So finger was it, and how did you cut it off? (sry, you might have already said that)... I just think it would be sooo painful.

She put it up her nose to far...the doctor had to cut it off....:D:p:D


Bama are you kidding me...leeches?????:eek:

Ha ha...Cindy. :p

Yes, pointer finger, right hand. OK, I would say "promise not to laugh," but....:rolleyes:
So, you know on swingsets the see-saw looking things? Know those big plasic guard things on the hinges where they attach to the frame? Yeah, well...those guards didn't always use to be there! :rolleyes: For some reason, I thought swinging it from the top was a GREAT idea.:( Not so much.

I think I was 13, 14 at the time? Felt it and just thought I'd pinched it--that was about what it felt like. Turns out it had severed the nerves so bad and so quickly, that I didn't have any left there TO feel anything. Ended up having to have a pin in my finger to fix the bone and had to have the rest sewn back together. By the time they reattached it, the blood in the tip had started and there was no circulation. Thus, they put medical leaches on the end of it to suck out the congealing blood and restart circulation. Nasty, but it worked, so no complaints. Still can't feel a darn thing in the end of that finger though...so that's always the one I offer up for any bloodwork.

I can say that I have a pretty wicked looking fingerprint now though. :D

Oh Lord, it hurts just reading about it...but you will be great at Halloween being a witch and pointing that nasty old finger at some poor little kid...Hey and just for a chuckle or two maybe you can add the leeches...:eek:

No wonder you can write as great as you can..All the blood went to your head and stayed there....:rolleyes:

Hey...you can't even tell it ever happened unless you look really hard. That fingernail grows kind of funny, I have a scar and my finger is a bit uneven at the tip...but you really don't notice.

But I'll leave the leaches for someone else...once is enough. :thumbdown (Although I did find a few in my FLOWERBED after a 2 month bought of rain this summer! :eek:)

It really is amazing what doctors can do...wow!

Absolutely not! The American standard is in the slow painful process of change, and they will be going to full tails. If you can breed stronger tails all the better for the happy dogs. The AKC won't feel a thing, even if they seem to cry out, and won't miss their stubs when they're gone.

What on Earth give you that indication? To the best of my knowledge, YTCA has made no mention of changing the American standard" anytime soon. :confused: Maybe that is what YOU would like to see happen as a result of a ban on docking, and there may be some in favor of it...but that does NOT mean the "American standard is in the process of changing." :rolleyes:

As a member I've heard nothing being changed to a full tail....and remember its not the AKC that changes the standard it is the parent club that does the changing and so far there has been NO discussion of taking the docked tail out of the standard....

Donna

Yep...sounds like some 'wishful thinking.' :rolleyes:

Well, let me try to explain. I've watched fights before, and it looks to me like the YT club is outnumbered, outranked, no visible means of support outside of poodle country, and they're wrong. Cutting off puppy tails isn't something YTCA likes to talk about it, since it upsets people and their rationalizations are flimsy. They have to cloak the practice in 'soft' terms like 'docking' to prevent weirdos understanding what they're talking about and going ballistic, making embarrassing scenes and drawing attention and all that. While the hopeful defender AKC proclaims to the press that cutting puppies ears and tails off are Important procedures for Important dogs doing Important things for the Nation, like Military, Police, and Humanitarian services, the rationale doesn't translate over to little yorkies and poodles. They tell you to go ask your vet, and the good vets of the world don't like chopping off ears and tails for no good reason, and have plainly and strongly said so. Thus the AKC will withdraw support of the YT club (who I'm not convinced even exist as they don't answer emails) in favor of self defense, since their position is unsustainable in the face of popular public and political passion to restore the earth to a more natural state.

Some pretty plain and strong language dockers are facing:
Illinois SB 139 moved that a person convicted of performing tail docking or ear cropping who is NOT a licensed veterinarian performing it for a medical reason will be guilty of a Class 3 felony, sharing the category with torture. "As a condition of the sentence imposed the court shall order the offender to undergo a psychological or psychiatric evaluation."

New York AB 7218 for dogs leaves it as a misdemeanor, but we all love NY.

California's SB 135 passes with 75% in favor granting CA cows 'the legal right to swat flies', and the Huffington Post starts up about it, it all looks pretty clear to me that cute little puppies with their tails chopped off won't sell well soon, whereas [shudder] puppy mills who could care less about standards might do quite well and even go pro.

I don't see a lot of Americans buying dogs in the next few years anyway, do you? And 'as goes California'...I know a few things about manufacturing for California... Anyway, as animal welfare groups make their rounds of New York, Vermont, Wisconsin, etc. well, it's clear enough to me what the writing on the wall is, because people are a herding animal, and we follow the leader, whoever seems to be strongest at the time.

Wishful thinking? You bet! Best of luck in your endeavors!

Friscomom, you've stated in another thread here tonight that your own yorkies neuter and/or retained baby teeth have been put on "your back burner". I would suggest to you that perhaps your own dog is in dental pain or discomfort and just maybe you should worry about him before you tackle the entire tail docking cause.

Your rhetoric is a waste of my time.