inbreeding - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

PinkMartini · 10-07-2005, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carters Mom

Go to amazon.com and order Anne Seranne's book, The Joy of Breeding Your Own Show Dog. It explains inbreeding and when it is a good idea and when it is not.

Inbreeding is used to strengthen a trait in a particular pup you're trying to produce. Dams and sires that have the same recessive gene shouldn't be breed because you'd be producing pups with the recessive gene.

The book explains it really well and is a great investment if you're really wanting to know about breeding.

Lisa

I couldn't have said it any better. Inbreeding/linebreeding should ONLY be left to EXPERIENCED breeders, people who don't have to come to a message board and ask if it's ok

YorkieShadow · 10-07-2005, 02:21 PM

Brother and sister never. I have always heard its ok to use the Grandpa and some times the father. But I wouldnt.

YorkieRose · 10-07-2005, 03:00 PM

The article is titled.."The Downside of Inbreeding"...It's Time For A New Approach"...
It starts with the quote I posted in my first post and ends with this quote...

"Inbreeding gave us the many breeds of dogs we enjoy today, but its time is past. If purebred dogs are to remain viable into the next century, breeders need to rethink their strategy and work toward their goals with more emphasis on over-all health and concerted efforts to reduce the level of inbreeding in their dogs.." granted the above sentence is a mouth full and should perhaps be two..but that it is anti-inbreeding, yes, no??

One thing I found interesting is the part about wild animals..."Nature goes to great lengths to discourage inbreeding. Related animals rarely mate, which prevents genes for diseases and defects from coming together with any great frequency. Wild animals have a variety of behaviors which will eliminate or severely restrict inbreeding....

Another quote..."A common result of inbreeding is "inbreeding depression", typified by small litter size and difficulty producing or rearing young....

YorkieRose · 10-07-2005, 03:05 PM

As to Anne Seranne and many other show breeders..and I include myself as I have inbred...the time has past. Inbreeding was quite common and necessary to set type some years ago..but I think with all the genetic problems, we as breeders need to rethink our breeding programs as the article states.

Some of the older books still hold true to this day..but I have read a few things in Ethel Mundays books that is just no longer true or done..no different then many books written decades ago.

feminvstr · 10-07-2005, 04:05 PM

Pat I read the same article, what confuses me is days gone by it was a norm and many many breeders continue doing it today.

What just woke them up?
What made them question what has been done for so many years? How can a breeder successfully create and solidify a look without it?

I have never inbred or line bred but I cant say I would never JMHO

YorkieRose · 10-07-2005, 04:42 PM

In the beginning breeders bred "Like to Like"...then came "inbreeding" to set a type. A type can be set by going back to breeding "like to like"...we have to remember the earlier breeders did not allow the weak to survive .Now we try to save them all..and many will go ahead and breed them.

I was talking to a vet last month who knows breeders who have had liver shunts repaired and then bred the dogs. I thought I had heard it all, I guess not.
Modern medicine is saving many,many pups who never stood a chance 25 years ago. Early breeders did not bottle and tube feed..the pups either were strong enough to nurse or died. We have discovered we can save many pups with suppliments..is this good or bad? I feel it is good, but I would not keep one for breeding. JMO
No one tried to repair a cleft or disemboweled pup, same with repaired knees, hernia and livers. Yorkies with open fontenels are regularly used for breeding now..(smalls males).

You can create a solid look with linebreeding and like to like, I see no need to inbreed with so many genetic problems now.
I inbred Rothby and got liver shunt..so I took my Rothby and bred to others who had that look, but unrelated..the type I love is still there, but not the inbreeding.

jer_lin · 10-07-2005, 05:38 PM

OK Pat==its going on 2 years now; and I'm still waiting on you to write your book I requested:

Jerry

troubletb · 10-07-2005, 05:55 PM

I know someone who had two yorkies from the same breeder, The breeder said that the dogs were not realted. So she breed them. The bitch had 4 beautiful pups. One died on day 1. The second died on day 2. The third had to be put down because she did not had a rectum. And the fourth survived. The vet said it was probably because they were closely related, So, In my opinion, why take the chance.

Gracy · 10-07-2005, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkiegold

A brother to sister breeding is true inbreeding.

It reduces the number of individuals who contribute to the litter's genetic make up by 50%.

It is a breeding strategy that has been used successfully in the past to imprint "type" or a certain look, etc. in a line. It brings the very best traits as well as the very worst traits to the phenotype where we can see them.

This is not a wise breeding strategy for the novice or small hobby breeder.

JMHO

CJ

You mixed it..... It's father and daughter, AKC accepts
Sister & Brother is not accepted through AKC. This combination causes serious problems.
This is info I learned years ago not to do.

YorkieRose · 10-08-2005, 04:31 AM

Jerry, I would only need one copy..you are the only one who would buy it! LOL anyway, remember I said what I know would only fill a couple pages..LOL

I am going to ask AKC about BRO/SIS breeding, if they accept it...I have seen this inbreeding on peds. If AKC does not register this breeding, the unreputable breeder can name another stud as sire, they can ask a friend for their studs numbers..DNA means nothing unless it is checked and when is the last time you heard a pet owner paying to find out..rarely?

Carters Mom · 10-08-2005, 05:03 AM

This has been a superb thread!

Thanks for all the valid information from the breeders that are so valued here.

Lisa

yorkiemom1970 · 10-08-2005, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Jerry, I would only need one copy..you are the only one who would buy it! LOL anyway, remember I said what I know would only fill a couple pages..LOL

I am going to ask AKC about BRO/SIS breeding, if they accept it...I have seen this inbreeding on peds. If AKC does not register this breeding, the unreputable breeder can name another stud as sire, they can ask a friend for their studs numbers..DNA means nothing unless it is checked and when is the last time you heard a pet owner paying to find out..rarely?

Pat, i would buy your book too, regardless to the amount of pages!

troubletb · 10-08-2005, 09:47 AM

Ok where do I place my order for Pat's up coming book!!!???

chewysmom · 10-08-2005, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jer_lin

OK Pat==its going on 2 years now; and I'm still waiting on you to write your book I requested:

Jerry

Here, here...maybe we should start a campaign. Do you think if we harrass her she'll do it

I'm not a breeder and have no plans to ever breed, but I would like to see a book from Pat just to have her expertise on hand in a pinch!

YorkieRose · 10-08-2005, 10:22 AM

Do you guys have any idea how many Yorkie breeders I know would be laughing their butts off to read this thread...LOL

10-07-2005, 03:00 PM	#18
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	article The article is titled.."The Downside of Inbreeding"...It's Time For A New Approach"... It starts with the quote I posted in my first post and ends with this quote... "Inbreeding gave us the many breeds of dogs we enjoy today, but its time is past. If purebred dogs are to remain viable into the next century, breeders need to rethink their strategy and work toward their goals with more emphasis on over-all health and concerted efforts to reduce the level of inbreeding in their dogs.." granted the above sentence is a mouth full and should perhaps be two..but that it is anti-inbreeding, yes, no?? One thing I found interesting is the part about wild animals..."Nature goes to great lengths to discourage inbreeding. Related animals rarely mate, which prevents genes for diseases and defects from coming together with any great frequency. Wild animals have a variety of behaviors which will eliminate or severely restrict inbreeding.... Another quote..."A common result of inbreeding is "inbreeding depression", typified by small litter size and difficulty producing or rearing young....

10-07-2005, 03:05 PM	#19
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	Anne Serane As to Anne Seranne and many other show breeders..and I include myself as I have inbred...the time has past. Inbreeding was quite common and necessary to set type some years ago..but I think with all the genetic problems, we as breeders need to rethink our breeding programs as the article states. Some of the older books still hold true to this day..but I have read a few things in Ethel Mundays books that is just no longer true or done..no different then many books written decades ago.

10-07-2005, 04:05 PM	#20
feminvstr Donating YT 4000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 4,405	Pat I read the same article, what confuses me is days gone by it was a norm and many many breeders continue doing it today. What just woke them up? What made them question what has been done for so many years? How can a breeder successfully create and solidify a look without it? I have never inbred or line bred but I cant say I would never JMHO __________________ Kimberly Last edited by feminvstr; 10-07-2005 at 04:07 PM.

10-07-2005, 04:42 PM	#21
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	article In the beginning breeders bred "Like to Like"...then came "inbreeding" to set a type. A type can be set by going back to breeding "like to like"...we have to remember the earlier breeders did not allow the weak to survive .Now we try to save them all..and many will go ahead and breed them. I was talking to a vet last month who knows breeders who have had liver shunts repaired and then bred the dogs. I thought I had heard it all, I guess not. Modern medicine is saving many,many pups who never stood a chance 25 years ago. Early breeders did not bottle and tube feed..the pups either were strong enough to nurse or died. We have discovered we can save many pups with suppliments..is this good or bad? I feel it is good, but I would not keep one for breeding. JMO No one tried to repair a cleft or disemboweled pup, same with repaired knees, hernia and livers. Yorkies with open fontenels are regularly used for breeding now..(smalls males). You can create a solid look with linebreeding and like to like, I see no need to inbreed with so many genetic problems now. I inbred Rothby and got liver shunt..so I took my Rothby and bred to others who had that look, but unrelated..the type I love is still there, but not the inbreeding.

10-07-2005, 05:38 PM	#22
jer_lin Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: s.c. Posts: 198	OK Pat==its going on 2 years now; and I'm still waiting on you to write your book I requested: Jerry __________________ Jerry==Jer_lin Yorkies

10-07-2005, 02:21 PM	#17
YorkieShadow BANNED! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Posts: 9,999	Brother and sister never. I have always heard its ok to use the Grandpa and some times the father. But I wouldnt.

10-07-2005, 05:55 PM	#23
troubletb Love my Yorkies Donating Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New Port Richey, Florida Posts: 2,339	I know someone who had two yorkies from the same breeder, The breeder said that the dogs were not realted. So she breed them. The bitch had 4 beautiful pups. One died on day 1. The second died on day 2. The third had to be put down because she did not had a rectum. And the fourth survived. The vet said it was probably because they were closely related, So, In my opinion, why take the chance. __________________ Karen~ Bell, Lilly and Peter's Mom Rest in Peace <3

10-08-2005, 04:31 AM	#25
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	Jerry, I would only need one copy..you are the only one who would buy it! LOL anyway, remember I said what I know would only fill a couple pages..LOL I am going to ask AKC about BRO/SIS breeding, if they accept it...I have seen this inbreeding on peds. If AKC does not register this breeding, the unreputable breeder can name another stud as sire, they can ask a friend for their studs numbers..DNA means nothing unless it is checked and when is the last time you heard a pet owner paying to find out..rarely?

10-08-2005, 05:03 AM	#26
Carters Mom YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: LA Posts: 1,568	This has been a superb thread! Thanks for all the valid information from the breeders that are so valued here. Lisa __________________ Lisa Proud Marine Mom Carter, Cooper & Crissy's Mom and Sebastian's Nana Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose!

10-08-2005, 09:47 AM	#28
troubletb Love my Yorkies Donating Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New Port Richey, Florida Posts: 2,339	Ok where do I place my order for Pat's up coming book!!!??? __________________ Karen~ Bell, Lilly and Peter's Mom Rest in Peace <3

10-08-2005, 10:22 AM	#30
YorkieRose No Longer a Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 8,577	book Do you guys have any idea how many Yorkie breeders I know would be laughing their butts off to read this thread...LOL