I tried to edit but was too late -- When I said at 6 months you finally know what you have, I meant that as if you had bought a puppy you felt was going to be in standard. You can of course, identify faults or problems before 6 months -- just as you have here. For instance, his ears may still perk up, and you could help them to that end, but I think they are still going to be wide set. About thta hernia...... is she going to pay for the repair? I am not familiar enough with them to know if that is considered a large one or not. What did the vet say, is it small enough that it might self repair? Does he think surgery is warrranted?

Is it ok for me to ask some questions? I see what you are talking about on the wide set ears and of course the hernia is obvious. Is the white on the chin a concern or will it grow out like white on the chest often does? Also, how short should a yorkie nose be? Mine has a longish nose as you can see on my avatar. I would love to someday show yorkies, I showed my whippet and dal back in the day...

I have a question too. Some show breeders mention a deposit on their websites, some do not. Is a deposit always expected whether they are mentioned or not?

My vet said umbilical hernia at this point doesn't need surgery, there is a possibility that it will repair on its own, but never a guarantee. it could still be there as adult, and at that time, I can repair it by surgery. The thing that make me so mad is I think she is not reputable by not telling me this up front, and after I contact her regarding this issue, she told me it's not a genetic problem, so it's not covered in her warranty, and she refused to take her puppy back and she said there is absolutely no money refund. She said I can return the dog at my own cost, and wait for another puppy. I had been waiting this puppy for two years, and this is what I got, and she wants me to believe I will get a better one after another waiting??? Oh, and she said because I don't show, so I don't know the standard of a yorkie. Seriously, look at my puppy, I think my dogs are better quality compare to hers!! And at least, I know what is right to do!!

By the way, her name is Tiffany Coburn.

I think the huge amount of white on this puppy is a fault too, both of his back paws has white hair as well. Feel like this puppy is a mix with something.

Hmmmm from Oklahoma? I have heard her name before. She also is on the suspension list from AKC for record keeping and dog identification problems. She was fined heavily.

You are right, keeping the hernia from you , was not right at all. Then to say it was not genetic so she is not covering it in the guarantee is not right either. It is a pre-exisiting condition and she needs to pay for any cost that is incurred to fix it. But it does not sound like she is going to do that without a fight.

Sorry you have had such a horrible two year ordeal. I can't imagine that kind of frustration!

i googled her name and found an old, not so nice, thread on YT involving her.

Sounds like she is not willing to work with you at all. I hope you go after her and get your money back or whatever it is you want from her. The whole situation is a mess and she was so unwilling to work with you for the 2 years.

Some show breeders do sell show prospect puppies at 12 weeks or a little older but they sell them at a reduced price and do not guarantee them to be show quality. You take a risk when you do that. Some people just cannot afford to pay $2500 to $3000 for a show dog with a show contract. I would expect a nice show prospect to run around $1500 to $2,000. By show prospect I mean the puppy at 12 weeks should not have any glaring faults and should have a halfway decent pedigree behind it.

What I do not like about this pup is the ears. They are too floppy and I don't know if taping will bring the up but they should be taped. It is impossible to judge the conformation of the puppy from those photographs.

As for the hernia. I had a pup once that had what we thought was a hernia and it looked just like that. I took her to the vet to have it repaired and when I went to pick her up the vet said it was not a hernia but just fatty tissue that was trapped. The ring had close correctly on the puppy and just trapped some fatty tissue. The vet removed the fatty tissue and the pup was just fine. Personally, I would never dream of selling a pup to someone that had what appears to be a hernia without talking to them about it first and I would sell the pup at a greatly reduced price or have the hernia repaired before placing the pup.

To answer the question about deposits, some breeders do not take deposits on pups. They hold the whole litter for evaluation and then the ones they decide to sell, they most likely won't require a deposit because the pups will already be old enough to go to a new home. Many of the top breeders have waiting lists.

ALL breeders, show or not, ask for a deposit unless the puppy is ready to go then you will pay full price plus all shippng charges. Why should a breeder hold a puppy for someone and miss out on a sale to someone else then have the first person change their mind after the puppy has been held for them. For instance, I have a litter. I am only taking a deposit on the one available boy. But i will need a deposit to hold. the girls, I am keeping for a while to see if they are something I want to keep. if not, then I will offer them for sale but they will be ready to leave by then and the full amount would be paid. i don't need boyss or this boy I am selling would be done the same way. I have several people interested so whichever one is serious enough to send the deposit is the one that will get the puppy. no deposit? i feel they are just toying with me and are not serious.

Some show breeders do sell show prospect puppies at 12 weeks or a little older but they sell them at a reduced price and do not guarantee them to be show quality. You take a risk when you do that. Some people just cannot afford to pay $2500 to $3000 for a show dog with a show contract. I would expect a nice show prospect to run around $1500 to $2,000. By show prospect I mean the puppy at 12 weeks should not have any glaring faults and should have a halfway decent pedigree behind it.

I would never sell a show prospect or show quality pup as 12 weeks of age. It's either show ready or not. My opinion is if you can't afford $3,000.00 to purchase a show dog, then you can't afford to finish it.

The problem with selling a show prospect is that you still sell it on open registration. So, what's to guarantee you that the person that is purchasing it says oh it didn't turn out and breed it anyway. I'm of the belief that if I wouldn't keep it in my program and show it, then it should be petted out. Pedigree is not everything....not all pups with great pedigrees should be shown or bred. Most of the breeder/exhibitors I know believe and follow the same practice.

I never take a deposit until the new owner has decided on a pup. Once they've been to my home and made that decision, the only way I'll hold the pup is with the deposit.

The only time I take a deposit prior to the purchase of a pup, is when they've asked for a specific breeding, then I require the total amount.

Mary, I realize you would never do that but there are many show breeders out there that are willing to give a newbie a chance. Ideally anyone who wants to show would be better off spending a lot of money on a older show quality dog but many people choose to take a chance with a less expensive, younger puppy with nice bloodlines. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it does not.

Think about it though, it really isn't fair to the newbie. That really isn't encouraging to the newbie if the dog doesn't turn out. I'd prefer that if I sold a show dog that it would be show ready, after all it's my and my dogs reputation on the line. I'd much rather give a dog to a newbie, mentor them, that would be the right way of doing it. I've seen too many newbies be discouraged by the whole show thing because they were sold a show prospect that really wasn't a show prospect. Had to start over and maybe over again to the tune of thousands of dollars. Whereas if they'd purchased a show dog, they'd have been better off. A dog should be show ready period. That's the reputable way of doing it.

This is the way leChaz does it. he said he never sells a show dog until it has been trained and is ready to go into the ring and is in full show coat. Might even have already been in the ring a time or two. I think that is a good way to do it. And believe you me, I know about being sold "show prospects' that were no more than pet quality and me as a newbie to showing, being too niave to realize the difference.

I know thats what LeRoy does. Most and I say most YTCA exhibitors do it. One doesn't have to be YTCA to do it this way.

Doing it the other way is taking advantage of a newbie. It's our responsibility to insure that we train the newbies coming up, the right way, after all it's in their hands that we're going to leave it all too.

I know it's tough being a newbie, especially in todays times. It's hard to break in, but it can be done. But, it isn't just about placing that show dog, it's about mentoring.....making sure a newbie is trained in caring, grooming, training and the presentation of a show dog.

I don't think this puppy was sold as a "show prospect" but rather just a breeding prospect. It's doubtful this puppy could be shown but I don't think that's the intention of the OP. I think she was expecting a nicer puppy from a champion sire, but it didn't happen. The sad truth is that if you pay an inflated price for a young puppy (especially before it is even born), it could turn out to be either really nice, or really terrible. I don't know if that's the fault of the breeder or the buyer. :confused:

Show/breeding are one in the same. I'm not saying that everyone should be an exhibitor and every breeding dog should be Championed. But, what I mean is that a breeding dog should have all the attributes that show dog has. Otherwise it shouldn't be bred.

I think I said a bit earlier, not all dogs of a good pedigree should be shown/bred, Championed sired or not. I know that for a fact I have dogs that are Championed and come from a very, very long line of Champions, they don't always produce that show/breeding quality dog......

It takes more to buying a breeding dog than buying a dog from a breeder that sells you a dog on open registration.

Mary, you are right that there are show breeders that do take advantage of newbies but I know many are honest in telling them that there are risks and no guarantee. Many people are willing to take the risk. If anyone is serious about getting into showing then they would be better off attending several shows, getting to know different breeders and do lots of research. Some show breeders have very strict contracts and some are not as strict. I think it is much better to buy a show puppy that is at least 6 months old so you have a much better idea of what you are getting but if you are not knowledgeable about yorkies you could still be sold a unfinishable dog or one that could only be finished with a professional handler. There is a lot of hard work and money that goes into finishing a yorkie, no matter how good it is.

Reputable breeder/exhibitors will only sell show dogs not potential show dogs. It's not as easy as just attending shows. It takes a lot of effort on the part of the newbie in the beginning. I agree reputable breeder/exhibitors will not sell to just anyone. A newbie has to prove themselves, show their heart is in the right place, that they're in it to improve the breed not just to make a fast buck and go into the selling game. Turn around and call themselves show breeders to sell their dogs on somebody else's blood, sweat and tears. Those are the type of breeders that take advantage of newbies. But, as I said before if you're reputable, you don't operate that way.

I understand that newbies begin without doing their homework, they're in a hurry, want everything now.....So, they turn to the first person that will sell them a dog on open registration. Telling the newbie it's a show dog. I know that when newbies come to me for advice, I don't mince any words, I lay it on the line on how hard the road is. Some either believe me, others turn around and look for that person that has maybe obtained good pedigreed dogs via the backdoor, or maybe Championed one dog and sell a dog to them on open.

I know how tuff contracts can be, I have 2 extremely tuff ones; one for show and another for pet.

I will tell any newbie, the same thing that was told to me when I first started. Don't show, don't breed until your mentor says your ready. If by some chance you happen to get a good dog to show, send it to a handler. Because as a newbie you can ruin that dog.

I have a very good friend that was taken to the cleaners. She went to someone that said they were a show breeder. This person readily sold her 3 show dogs. None of them were show quality, the breeder wouldn't take them back. A well known reputable exhibitor/breeder (who has become her mentor) came into her home, without knowing where the dogs came from told her to rehome all of them. So, to the tune of $14,000 she took a big loss. Petted the dogs out and had to start over again.

I can offer this advice, because I've been there, it was tough. But, I will say it's tougher to enter the show world if you don't take the right steps. Reputable breeder/exhibitors will find it harder to trust you and you'll have a very difficult time getting a good dog. Especially if you've gone the backdoor to get a pedigreed dog.

Yes, it's expensive to finish a dog, more difficult and expensive if you don't know what you're doing. You could drag the dog around for a couple of years and maybe get 2 points on it. Even if you obtain a handler, you'd better know what you're looking for, which are the best and can finish them the fastest. And what if that dog isn't a good dog, a good handler can finish a dead cat. So, I'll say again, you'd better do your homework up front and know what you're doing. Or you'll turn around and breed that dog because you Championed it.

Mary, you have explained very well why most people do not get into showing and just resort to breeding. There are very few people who are serious enough about showing and going through the process of doing it right. Anyone can breed dogs but it takes a special person to make the kind of commitment you talk about.

Probably it was a good thing that I got bit by the show bug and find I dislike breeding. I love showing. Maybe that's the clue to starting out. Most people don't understand that one must study the breed inside and out before ever beginning a breeding program. I don't think it takes a special kind of person, just one that has a passion for the breed. Wanting to leave it better than they found it.

I wish I could turn back the clock and do things a lot different. I know I have made my share of mistakes. I love showing too but just don't have the funds to do it right now. I have 18 months to go before I can start getting my retirement and if all goes well I sure hope to start going to more shows. At least that is my aspiration.

Some people can have a passion for the breed but not be mentored or they might be mentored by someone that does not share the same views as you. I see all kinds of yorkie breeders and I think many are passionate about what they do but not all have the same goals, values and ethics.

For the LOVE OF GOD! IM NOT SUSPENDED! if i was do you think i could register a litter in my name! get you facts straight, it was an error in akc reports, I HAVE MY DANG AKC RIGHTS! oh lord it shows people need to do something with their lifes beside HEAR SAY and post it! if you dont know me, dont judge me..everyone has a story..i stand behind my dogs, i never sell a show dog, they are prospects! and she doesnt even show!!!! we have a show contract for that, that shows its a lie! oh my...

Curious... how come whenever a breeder is talked about on YT.. comes on here to defend themselves? How did they know they were being discussed? Coincidence? They google themselves everyday? :confused::confused::confused::confused:

Same as what happened recently on another thread. Someone takes it on their "well-meaning " selves to notify the person being talked about so they can come on and defend themselves against the accusations. They do have that right you know.

We know you are not suspended now. Many of us are just stating that we would not have handled the situation with this puppy buyer the way you did. Yes, it says in your contract that deposits are never returned, no matter what but that does not necessarily make it ethical. Also, the hernia is a big deal whether you think it is or not. It might no hurt the pup but you were wrong in not telling the puppy buyer about it. You can do whatever you want but we do have the right to our own opinion on what makes a breeder a good, ethical breeder that can be trusted.

Question? Does anyone have this person's website?

Definitely agree that they have the right to know. Just noticed a trend where they appear out of nowhere to defend. You're right though, someone must have told them. I just thought they googled their names or something everyday.

Here is her website: index

I am getting a puppy from you for breeding; you know that at the very beginning, and plus the quality of dog for breeding and show should be about the same, not like these much difference. The quality of this puppy is not breedable.

And please, don't keep on making circle. I told you my point is that you shouldn't hide his hernia from me, by the time you found out about it, you should told me right away. You shouldn't ship him without telling me!!!

On Tiffany's website she says the following:
Since she did not give you limited registration that tells me that she knew you intended to breed the dog otherwise she would have made it limited registration. Do you have the papers already? Did the contract mention limited registration? I just don't know that you can do anymore at this point. You have made her and us aware of the problems you had so that in itself brings awareness to others that are looking to buy a puppy from her or anyone. How is the puppy doing? Have you tried to tape his ears? How old is he now and how much does he weigh? I hope you love the little boy as he is or perhaps you can find him a wonderful home if he is not what you are wanting.