Wording...
 

Disclaimer: I am NOT trying to start trouble, but this has been weighing on me.


I understand how experienced breeders can get upset about situations that they know can end in disaster. My issue is how things are worded very often.

We cannot hear the tone of your voice. It could be empathetic or it could be chastising. And when someone feels backed up against a wall, he/she will not hear what you're saying, however helpful it might be. They will just get defensive, and all the knowledge you have to share won't be heard.

Yes, things need to be said, but I wish people would think about how it might sound to someone, especially someone who is scared and worried about a breeding situation. That person needs the facts (good and bad, worded with respect), support, and to be able to feel that she/he can post on here without feeling attacked.

Just my .02, for what it's worth.

Your same concern has been voice time and time again. If I get the jist of this and similar concerns, it's not what is said, it's how it is said. Kind of sad that people making serious decisions regarding the lives of their dogs can't look past the "tone" (or just ignore it) and focus on the value of the information being shared instead of trying to over analyze things and concern themselves too much on whether someone was "nice enough" with their answer. You are right...you can't always determine the intent behind someone's words--but that rule goes both ways. If people should be more considerate of how they post, then equally those reading it should be more considerate of how they interpret it. To me, many times the "you were rude with your answer" line is nothing more than a tactic implemented to distract attention from one siutation to another, or "throw the heat off", so to speak.

Unfortunately, it's the "it's not what you said it's how you said it" mentality that has been and continues to be a huge contributing factor as to why many of the well seasoned, respected breeders refuse to post here at all anymore. (Which is a point that has also been brought up on more than one occasion.)

[QUOTE=BamaFan121s;2696300]Your same concern has been voice time and time again. If I get the jist of this and similar concerns, it's not what is said, it's how it is said. Kind of sad that people making serious decisions regarding the lives of their dogs can't look past the "tone" (or just ignore it) and focus on the value of the information being shared instead of trying to over analyze things and concern themselves too much on whether someone was "nice enough" with their answer. You are right...you can't always determine the intent behind someone's words--but that rule goes both ways. If people should be more considerate of how they post, then equally those reading it should be more considerate of how they interpret it. To me, many times the "you were rude with your answer" line is nothing more than a tactic implemented to distract attention from one siutation to another, or "throw the heat off", so to speak.

Unfortunately, it's the "it's not what you said it's how you said it" mentality that has been and continues to be a huge contributing factor as to why many of the well seasoned, respected breeders refuse to post here at all anymore. (Which is a point that has also been brought up on more than one occasion.)[/QUOTE]

you are right and right now, I really am not in a mood to worry about how anyone reads what i wrote on the other thread. Some people just need to go to walmart and get a stuffed animal. I am so tired of threads like the two or three I have read today. There is just no excuse. i know the old arguement of everyone has to start somewhere keeps coming up and yes that is right but there are those people that have researched for years before letting two unaltered pets together and even if it was an oops, they should have known better. I know I am in a bad mood today and am not going to post anymore on any of these threads but know this, I am one of the very few experienced breeders left on this board and I spend countless hours on the phone trying to help sincere people. So understand that I am not just trying to be rude or unfeeling. it gets very old at a certain point.

Oh my gosh, this is so long - sorry about that. It will seem longer than normal, b/c I put lots of spacing b/w paragraphs for easier reading. :p

That is sad that it has been voiced again and again. I imagine that there will not be a situation where everyone will be happy, so this is probably a mute point.:(

I absolutely agree: questions can be very confusing, frustrating the person answering it.

I think the interpretation confusion comes from not being able to hear the tone of the person. The OP may be scared or worried (depending on their situation), and their nerves are often raw after dealing with days of guilt, analyzing, etc.

And, you are right, we need to careful in how we interperet the tone - it's just hard to do sometimes. I have read something, and thought it was rude; only to re-read it and realize it wasn't so bad. I will admit to being very sensitive and getting my feelings hurt easily - not a good thing on such impersonal boards!:rolleyes:

I also agree that it would be sad for someone to disregard valuable information b/c they got their feelings hurt. Maybe it's not totally disregarded (it would depend on the person/situation), but my point is that if someone is upset about their situation, they should't be made to feel bad; they came here for help, not to be judged and knocked down. They should know the facts and possibly disastrous outcomes, but those things should be delivered with kindness and support, not judgement.

But, I don't understand why experienced breeders wouldn't post on here. If they are helpful and polite, what would the problem be? I guess maybe they thought they weren't being rude, but were blasted by people who thought they were?

I think it comes down to two different sides:


Breeders and experienced dog owners who are frustrated with ignorance, and possibly terrible outcomes.

Newbies inexperienced with breeding asking those questions and posting about these terrible outcomes - causing the frustration in the breeders.


But I do believe that rude is rude. There is always a nicer way to say things, and it might take more time, but it's so much more pleasant for everyone. It's all in the delivery.


Again, sorry for the novel!

[quote=Sugar's Mom;2696336]
I totally understand. That's exactly what I thought.

I hope you have a better day - and hopefully you are taking a break from the boards and not reading this until tomorrow!:p

I understand exactly what you are saying.

Personally, when I read something that has been posted and it strikes a negative cord within me. I step back and ask myself why? More often than not it's because it is indirectly directed towards me and I need to reaccess what I'm doing. If it doesn't strike a cord then I go on.

Sometimes I feel the same way as one of the newbies here . . .sometimes I won't post things because I'm afraid of the answers I'll get . . .not that they aren't good answers, it's just the underlying tone of the responses. I'm not a breeder nor any where near experienced what the seasoned breeders have . . .I look up to those who have bred their pups and read about their triumphs and heartaches and study up on things I do not yet fully understand. Yes, I want to breed Rhianna one day to my Brody . .I guess I'll be considered a "byb" but that isn't how I feel . . .I love my furkids with all my heart, I know I've researched and learned by reading and reading and reading . . .I'm still learning . . .my dogs aren't kept in crates in a kennel, they live with me, in my home, under my feet . . .they sleep in my bed . . .they are family . . .they are the love of my life . . .it's not to breed for money at all for me . . .I just have always wanted to do it . . .if we are blessed with pups I know I will find the best homes for them . . .if I cannot, I will keep them . . doesn't matter if there are 2, 3 or even 5 pups. . .

I just wanted to say that I respect you, the experienced breeders, but on the same token, I fear your negativity towards us, the newbies, . . .and I don't like feeling like that . . .:(

I agree, I think that somethings posted on here sound very rude and mean. I haven't had that happen to me but I do see where it has been done to others. I feel so bad for them and honestly it is uncalled for. I can give my advise without making the other person feel belittled...I found myself also not posting my thoughts because I don't want the bashing. I love yt but some of the people on here are rude and should think about what they say before they say it...

There have been numerous posts that I would have loved to voice my true opinions. I have many times bit my tongue. Other times I have voiced my opinion only to feel that I may have been a bit too harsh. I find it very frustrating when I read some of the posts and it is very hard not to say what I REALLY want to say but in the end it isn't going to help the situation.

I think the majority of people who do post are looking for advice because they know they are in over their heads. It is our job as the experienced breeder to help guide them in the direction needed. It isn't going to help the pregnant dog at all by condemning the person to where three posts later, they are swearing off YT.

Life is full of oops! Just because it is an oops doesn't mean it won't work out. Case in point ~ me... I was an oops and look, you wouldn't know what to do with yourselves if I weren't here! :D

I understand what your saying and agree with you. I've most of the time but, not all the time have been compassionate and considerate in how I post. As I've always said and tried to live by the words "I'm not here to alienate but to educate"

However, I do know that a certain thread prompted your post. But, did you stop and think about it this way? That person had been on this board for about a year, and I suspect reading various posts. That person missed a golden oppurtunity when the brother obtained these two yorkies. She could have been the teacher and told him your puppies are approaching the age where the female can be bred and shouldn't. She could have suggested to him that they should be kept seperated until the time they were old enough to be bred and he had more knowledge of the process, or to have them altered

You are right. With her being on here that long I'm sure she has read plenty of posts about this type of thing. I don't know if she had tried to warn her brother or not. I had thought several things when I initially read that post. I posted and had to delete my original post in order to take a different approach. :p I did wonder why if a person is going to have two yorkies, one of each sex, then why wouldn't they have at least one fixed so that this oops wouldn't occur.
I really believe that in the end it will always depend on the day as to how we respond to each individual thread. There are days that I can throw jokes in, other days that its seems as if every thread started is stupid and I want to tell the OP just that. We are only human and will react that way. Thankfully there are enough of us that when one is at their wits end with certain posts, another will be there to reassure and advise..

For the Record....
 

I started all this... I asked "the" question that is in the Other Thread.
mardelin, i may have "joined " this site last year, However, you are Assuming AGAIN, I Never posted , not Once, I did not "lurk" and read posts... Wow such a neative out look on life and people sweetie... I had not owned a yorkie then and I was Googleing yorkie info trying to decide if I wanted one... This Yorkie Talk came up in the search... I joined because I wanted to know what it, YT was all about. I looked around one or two days, then moved on...
I DID indeed decide to get a baby and LOVE that decision... After I got my baby then my brother got his, because he loved mine.. We lived in seperate states at the time... Ie.. I no longer live in COS, left over 6 months ago... Anyway, my point is guys, I have not been on YT in over a yr and a month. I remembered it last night when again searching Google for help. had to even reapply or whatever to get my password. I Think all Anne is saying is, Why not give people the Benefit of the Doubt? you and Dee seem to just have a Huge Chip on you. I am SO sorry All this hurt got started. I am Not what ALL this Negativity has made me out to be... Wow. I am truly grieved by all this Junk, Gossip,Murmurring. Please go on, I am sorry. If I had any idea... Well
anyway, Mary and Dee I believe, try to think on the Good the Pure and the Lovely... I know, easier said than done and Yes we all get burned by doing that at times. There Are BAD BAD people out there... But please dont let them make you hard or jaded... You might just miss out on a True Joy and wonderful experience... Glass half full girl here.
There is a Lot of love in and around all these posts.... I feel it in how you are all tryin to talk it out. I again am so sorry....

Many Blessings. oh btw Anne, your heart is So Big, what a blessing, Erica, tammy's (I think)same!! Thank you!!!!

The possibility exists that breeding was the plan and it came too quickly, not enough time to study and learn. I know this has happened to some.

He just i mean Just got the male, as a RESCUE, he was going to Nueter him...Had no idea his Sissy was in heat,,, YES HE was NOt as responsible as he should have been.
That is why I now have Sissy and the boy is FIXED....
Again you ladies have GOT to Stop being SOOO negative... wow.....
there are GOOD people out here who just flat Screw up!!! HELP THEM!!

For the record: I will admit that some recent posts spurred me to finally say something, but like I said at the beginning of my post, this has been weighing on me for a while, and I haven't even been here that long. :p

So, it wasn't just those recent posts that got me thinking about this.

I don't think (at least I hope not) that there is malice in the rude replies. I imagine just frustration coming out in words, which we all know can be hurtful.

If everyone just took a few extra seconds to figure out exactly what they want to ask or reply with (without judgement, b/c that is usually not what the asker needs), it would make a world of difference.;)

I think your posts in this thread have been well-written. You have expressed how many of us feel. No matter what, there are always people that are looking for a reason to be upset.......that is what makes them happy, believe it or not! Nothing to b##~* about = not happy! lol I love this board, but have been afraid to voice opinions at times.

I saw you had only been here what, two weeks? Sometimes it takes longer than that to sort of get to know the participants in a forum, see who really is there to help others, often with more than words. Once you know them better, you also get a better feel for their intent, their passions, their own convictions, and their "walk." You don't usually get that in two weeks or a very few postings. It takes time to really get to know folks. Sometimes a new poster is not always as they seem either. I try to reserve some of my "sympathies," if I initially have them, until I see the cut of their jib. I have gotten burnt jumping on the wrong band wagon too soon before. (Sorry for mixing metaphors).

I don't think advice always needs to be sugar-coated to be useful. I think some ducks need to be called ducks -- I think the big picture is often more important than the individual's sensitivity. But I wrote some of my reasoning in the other thread that seems to have spurred this one at least partially. I am not going to repeat my whole post here but instead link to the thread -- it is post #38 there http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...-newbie-2.html. See if you can see there might be another side of the coin after reading there.

Sorry, but I am seeing a lot of negativity from you. You can frame it all up with good words, but it is still there. Calling people "sweetie" when insulting them is pretty sarcastic. Does that not cause you to be "truly grieved" too? You can't keep stirring the pot, insulting others and throwing fits, while claiming to be "the glass half full girl." It doesn't play.

If you really want help for that little pg baby of yours, it is here. I will be more than glad to let you know some of the things to talk with your vet about as soon as you get an appointment. There are some great experienced breeders here that will also gladly give their valuable knowledge about pregnancy, whelping and raising the litter. That is where your priority needs to be. Why not just look at it that you have rescued a pregnant 1 year old Yorkie and need help from here on out. I am sure you will get lots of input. Just be open and don't get mad so easy. It is hard to help someone who is throwing stones at you.

I have read so much of this today, my head is swimming.


I know what you mean about making premature judgements, but I didn't have to be on here more than a day to read replies that could have been worded with more thought, empathy, and compassion.

After reading those, my thought was not, "Wow, that person really knows her stuff, and is being so helpful." It was, "Wow, that person was rude."

I also did not need to be here long to see that there were very knowledgeable, helpful people on here. But sometimes that knowledge was drowned out by judgment and rudeness. It's just those few negative ones that stick out, b/c they tend to be hurtful and insulting.


I'm not talking about sugar-coating things; but there needs to be an awareness that someone might feel attacked or judged b/c of the tone of the reply. Then what good had been achieved? You might feel better b/c you got it off your chest, but who was really helped? Not the person who needed it.

It's so hard to decipher that tone through writing though...that's the reason we should take the extra step to make sure it comes across as supportive and helpful. The facts absolutely must be shared, but the OP shouldn't be made to feel badly. They should be thinking, "I am so glad to be on this board, and get so much help and advice." They shouldn't feel attacked or scared to post something.

I am also not defending all OP's. I have read some that literally make me shake my head in disbelief. I feel badly for the person/dog/situation, and would love to make it better if I could. But I know that anger will not help anyone. Like I said before, many of you know how these exasperating situations can end. I imagine that this knowlege and possible memories make you want to just smack someone silly! :eek: But it doesn't work. Educating others without judgment will go a long way in improving bad situations, and possibly worse outcomes.


I am one of the few people I know (not patting myself on the back, but like you said, just calling a duck a duck) that goes out of her way to make sure she does not hurt people's feelings. Because I tend to be overly sensitive, I make sure I don't make someone else feel badly.

So, when I see someone being curt or rude, it bothers me. It is the middle of the night, and I have rambled enough and feel like my posts keep repeating themselves. I would love to put this to rest, and have everyone be happy. I realize I may be living in a fantasy land, but I can dream....actually, I will go do that now.

'night.

Oh my gosh! Would you believe I actually forgot to same something? I can't believe I have anything left.

Again, sorry for all this writing. Apparently, I have finished the novel and I'm now working on a triology!




You said:

I think the big picture is often more important than the individual's sensitivity. But I wrote some of my reasoning in the other thread that seems to have spurred this one at least partially. I am not going to repeat my whole post here but instead link to the thread -- it is post #38 there Please Help...Breeding questions from Newbie. See if you can see there might be another side of the coin after reading there.

Yes, in many instances you're right about the big picture and sensitivity, but when it comes to helping others, I don't think that would be true. If someone comes to this board for help and support, that is what they should get. I can't imagine that insensitive helpfulness would ever be helpful...plus it's just not necessary. It doesn't help anyone.

In your post #38 you said:

"You very politely tell them what they should have done and then offer some ideas to help." - That's all I'm talking about.


Also, your post did not spur my original post. Mine was written before your reply.;)

Okay, NOW I'm going to bed. I wish I knew how to turn my brain off and stop thinking!

Alot of good experienced breeders dont post on here anymore because they were attacked because of how they replied to a thread or called rude. In fact there are very few breeders on here now and thats the shame

Oh and they were always attacked by people who had no experience breeding or very little experience. They just got feed up

I think you have misunderstood what I said. Here is the quote: "But I wrote some of my reasoning in the other thread that seems to have spurred this one at least partially. " In other words I was saying that the other thread spurred this thread -- not that my post within that thread did. I linked the thread and told you the number to my post as I was thinking you may have not read it since I knew it came after.

We will have to part ways on some of the other issues. I understand what you are saying, but I still believe some issues cannot be worded as nice as some people want. For instance, I saw nothing rude about the second post in the other thread. But the OP went off on that member. So, my feeling is the real rudeness came from the very person claiming to want help. She was the name caller, the "yeller," the ranter. Others very calmly said their piece, which did include that the brother had been irresponsible, a fact that the OP now seems to agree to.

There will always be differences in the way people look at things and the preferences they have for wording -- most of which depends on their particular part in the play. (For instance, the very person that claims she was attacked seems to be doing most of the attacking!) Some of those differences are good -- they make up the diversity that keeps life interesting and minds learning. If everyone agreed with everyone else all of the time, who would ever open their mind to new ideas? Who would ever dare to look at life differently and maybe, just maybe see something new? I used to look for people who were not afraid to disagree with me in the workplace. It did one of two things -- either made me find new justification for my own convictions or opened my mind to another way to look at things. I felt like either way, I won! Don't be afraid of different views! I respect your right to feel differently than I do, but ask for the same in return.

It is sad that they felt attacked - but that's how some other people who are still here feel. I don't think anyone needs to have breeding experience to feel offended or attacked.

So, the inexperienced people felt that the breeders were being rude? And the experienced people felt attacked by the breeders? I can see why this topic has been around for a while, and will most likely continue.:(



That being said, I realize that some OP's can also be rude and defensive, causing bad feelings all the way around.

In no way was I pointing fingers at one particular person or breeders.
My theory applies to everyone: Be nice. :)

Inexperienced breeders and nonbreeders would call them rude and so forth. I see your point but I also see when it might be needed for a breeder to be very direct and not beat around the bush.

Puppies needed a feeding, so I am still up. ***sigh***

I think I'm too tired, b/c you lost me on the first part. LOL

I don't think we are disagreeing as much as it may have seemed at first.

Anyway, I absolutely respect anyone's rights to feel differently, and am not afraid of that. Believe me, very few people believe the way I do in many, many ways. LOL:rolleyes: The world would be a very boring place if we all felt the same way.

I agree. There are times when the only way to get across to someone is to just lay the cards on the table, but that can still be done with respect if the OP was being respectful. What bothered me was when someone didn't need to be told off and they were.

I think it just happens when things are this impersonal...comes with the territory. Ya know what I mean?

Yes I think it just comes with internet forums. Ive been on some way worse than this one

Oh and I need to say I was also attacked by a breeder when I was brand new to this forum about buying a yorkie from a breeder that let them go at 8 weekis. This was a very respected breeder on here and it stung at the time but I did realize she was right and learned something from her. I think every poster on here can take that approach if they dont take whats written so personally

I understand what you're saying, but even though she was absolutely right, and knew her stuff, why was it said in a way that stung?

I imagine it was b/c she knows how bad it is for that tiny baby to leave her mom and littermates so early, and she probably got that feeling of, "I CAN'T BELIEVE SOME PEOPLE DO THIS!!"

But those feelings could still be voiced without leaving a sting. That's easy for me to say, b/c at the present moment I am not irritated (just dog tired - actually puppy tired! :rolleyes:). We are human and sometimes our moods just take over. Maybe if we all step back and try to see the other's person's position it would be smoother.

You are also right about taking it personally. If we don't take it to heart, then it wouldn't hurt - but that's easier said than done for some of us.