What should I do regarding breeder?
 

Okay, I have a problem also. I bought a puppy from someone that USED to be on YT. A female puppy . She turned a year old Feb 5th. She was 5 mths old when I got her. She also has a food aggression an doesn't get along with my maltese either. I have to keep them separted. She has bit me an a friend. She charges the door. We have tried everything. She has flunked the Training Class. I still love her. She has a great personality an loves to play. Very hyper! She was taken to the vets when I got her an he said she was healthy. She is a very beautiful baby. I took her two weeks ago to get her updated shots etc this was to a different vet. He checked her head to toe an right away said both back legs had Luxating Pattelas. I was shocked! She never limped, or held either leg up at all. He said the right was really bad .. the left wasn't as bad. I don't get it.. Is it genetic? I called the breeder an she said her Vet said it isn't genetic. They can get it from jumping up an etc. It is a very costly surgery since it is both legs. I just called the breeder to let her know. I don't want another puppy, I love my little girl too much. She goes to MSU Vet school next week to get evaluated etc. It already cost me 400.00 so far. Should I do something about the breeder or what? I don't want her to sell other dogs if this is heriditary. Just would like to ease my mind.
Thanks everyone

Luxating patellas are a hard one. Yes it's genetic but it can also be caused by an injury. Mild LPs can also be worsened by injury. A breeder ought to be only breeding sound dogs with tight patellas and ideally xraying and getting them OFAed. But sound dogs can have puppies with LPs. If a puppy has severe LPs and wasn't injured a breeder ought to cover it, but it is a hard one to cover because most toy breed dogs will at least have mild LPs and are usually jumping.

With that said I know who your breeder is...a local friend of mine has a dog from her too...

Who is your breeder? has she continued to refuse to work with you? I agree with Michelle. LP is a very hard call . Until we know more about these things and that they are genetic beyond a doubt, I just don't know what we as breeders or buyers can do. I had a vet tell me one time that if I ever saw a yorkie that didn't have it to some degree to be sure to let him know. it isn't just the yorkies it seems but all smaller breeds. And also she is right in that just because your parents do not have it, doesn't mean the pup won't. Same as LS or any thing else.

Yes she has, she said her vet told her it wasn't heriditary, and that is it. So I just wanted her to know. I have kept her updated since the day I got her. Emailing her an private message, calling her. She trully is a beautiful girl. Hair an eyes an everything. Just both back legs are bad. She hasn't limped or held her legs up yet. My vet has documented that she has BiLatereal Luxating Pattellas. She just don't care I guess. I still want to keep her, just want her to know about the problem.

that's a shame about the breeder. i wouldn't have the surgery unless it is so bad that she is limping and suffering.

my vet
 

my vet charges $800.00 for BOTH legs but he won't do the surgery unless the dog is in pain and limping which sometimes never happens so I wish you good luck.

A very reputable Maltese show breeder explained to us on another forum that one year is the general cut off for determining if luxating patellas are genetic or caused by injury.

When you got her at five months, did your vet check her knees? If they were clear then, she most likely got them from trauma (jumping on and off furniture).

Did you ask - and see proof or speak to her vet- if her parents knees were cleared before breeding?

What grade did the vet say it was?

If the dog has never limped, isn't in pain, or infected in any other way by it, why at this point, put the dog through a surgery that is costly and painful?

I find it hard to grasp that her knees can be so bad that they require surgery without any symptoms showing.:confused:

Lacy has grade 3 LPs and so far have never caused her pain or to limp so I wouldn't consider surgery for her.

I hate to say it but I think you are right about your breeder...she's not always honest and I know my friend got the run around from her. You bring up a problem and all of a sudden you can't get ahold of her

The exam for OFA for patellas is a manual exam performed by a regular vet. No xrays are used. It is not the same as OFA'ing hips. Just an FYI. Here is the form for having patella's OFA'd: http://www.offa.org/plappbw.pdf

My guess is that her condition, since it is in both knees and of two different grades, is congenital (meaning present at birth). Have the vet, after surgery, differentiate as to whether the groove in the bone was so shallow it needed to be deepened (congenital) or whether he was just repairing the soft tissue (more likely injury). Congenital however is not the same thing as hereditary, although many congenital defects are inherited. Really, what you would need to know is (a) whether the problems with the knee is a too shallow a groove which means congenital and (b) whether there are littermates, or full or half siblings (or parents) with the same condition. If so, most likely it was inherited.

The right leg is almost 4 an the left is 3. She hasn't done any limping or nothing. My vet said since she isn't limping or holding her legs up to just give it a "wait an See" . We are waiting, an if she starts to limp at all then she goes to MSU vet an be evaluated again. Thanks so much YT Friends for answering my questions. You guys are great. My little girl is so pretty, even though she does has an attitude.. lol..

What age would think would be good to have it done since most vets are under the impression that ALL puppies have loose knees to a degree. This is something I would be interested in doing on all puppies.

Dee, personally I would have them OFA'ed before breeding of course. I've had one puppy as young as 3 months to 6 months have tight knees and then after a year to almost 2 end up with a grade 2 LP. As in my Harvey. I'm sure his is genetic but it didn't show up until after he was over 16 months old. But his mother has LP but developed them after a year old so since mom and son have LP I'm going to say genetic. Harvey and Brookie had tight knees at 6 to 12 months old. LP is very hard but when a puppy under the age of 1 has LP upon examination I wouldn't breed them of course. After a year it can be caused from injury and that is why LP is so hard again as some have posted. In my contract I will cover LP up to one year if it's a grade 4 by one year of age. Both my Harvey and Brookie have up to grade 3's but I have maintained weight and control of jumping and haven't had a problem with them in over year since maintaining weight control. I will not have surgery on either yorkie unless they show any signs of pain and intolerance to the LP. It's a very painful surgery and if I can avoid it I will unless ABSOLUTELY necessary :)

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I have one with grade 4 in both legs and she has never shown any sign of pain or limping. My vet said do the watch and see approach as Cali also has mild MVD and we don't want her put under unless absolutely necessary. Her breeder was made aware of both MVD and LP and never offered any help. I also never asked since her contract was for 48 hours (before YT)

I'm sorry your breeder wasn't responsible :( Grade 4 for me to cover it although the yorkie would have to be up to one year of age. As, LP can be caused from injury and the owner not knowing it happened because of jumping ect....as far as the MVD goes the breeder should do some health testing and stand behind their breeding program....I spoke personally with Dr. Center and she said with perfectly normal parents with normal bile acid tests can produce MVD and LS but it could also be that pairing of individual dogs that produced the MVD or LS but until that genetic marker is found and established only thing we can do as responsible and reputable breeders is spay and neuter anything that produces MVD or LS.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Here is my LP story and I have no doubt it is Genetic.

Roxy and TJ (same father - different mothers)

Roxy was 9 months when I started to hear the click in both her legs. Vet confirmed LP. I saw 2 Ortho Specialist who confirmed LP. Roxy had surgery. He rear legs had a slight curvature to the bone structure. Both grooves were very shallow. One knee cap was facing the wrong way.

TJ has LP too - Thankfully he shows no signs of pain or discomfort.

My groomer has 2 girls (same parents as Roxy) - Both girls have LP

I have come in contact with another person that has a girl from the same breeder (same father as all the above - different mother) - and yes the pup had LP too

**********

So we have 5 pups ALL have LP in both legs
(Same father for all 5 pups - 3 different mothers)

What I have learned about LP is this. In most cases, they can not say LP is genetic for sure, bc most cases the pup isn't actually born with the patella luxating at that moment. BUT the genetic makeup (bone structure, groove, etc.) is all set up for the patella (at some point) to start to luxate. Get it ;)
I honestly think it is a sucky thing that a lot of breeders just get a free pass for :(

Donna, my adults have been checked but no official paper. i was thinking it would be nice to have it done every puppy that leaves here. That is why i was wondering what would be a good age. I wonder if a test on a 12-16 week old puppy is accurate.

Yes, I would for sure agree it's genetic in this case and of course in my case and yes both are spayed and neutered :) I believe LP can be genetic and can be caused by injury but when you see a pattern with pups and parents with LP of course it's genetic, it' what you do when you discover it's genetic what you do about your ethics with your breeding program :)
Those that you say get a free pass don't care about what they are breeding unfortunately but those that are responsible and reputable I don't think take that free pass :)

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I always have mine checked by the vet before placing into a pet home and normally the knees are tight. IF they were loose at that age I wouldn't be placing them until later or have an agreement with the new buyer to watch and see what happens when they reach a year old as to the grade of LP and then decide after that. I believe an examination can be correct at 12 to 16 weeks. But remember even puppies running around can injure themselves so really hard to determine if it would be genetic or caused by injury. I personally would watch and see with the new owners and go from there.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

my vet does everything when I take them in for their final visit before they leave, but it would be nice to get the form filled out and send it in to the place mentioned above and perhaps give new parents a copy along with the regular health certificate I provide.. That's what I was thinking.

You can't certify them until they are over 12 months old and that's because their bones are still growing. They have boxes to check according to age but I don't think you can actually certify them until they are older. I wouldn't even consider certifying them until they reach maturity.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

This is so true. Also to do the x-ray to check, the vet must put them under to be able to manipulate them into position to take the x-ray. They first lay upside down in a V-shaped tray on their backs. The legs must be in the right position and tied so they stay in that position. First set of x-rays are taken.
Then they must the rotate them flat on the table to their side and another photo is taken. During this whole time - the dog cannot move or the x-ray will either not be readable or not in the right position to check. Then the vet must be trained to know how to read the x-rays. In some cases it takes someone that specializes in this.
When a vet feels the knees - the joint must not be too tight or too loose. I call it the Goldlocks test - the knees must feel just right.
I hope this helps.
T.

According to this no x-rays are used. (copied and pasted from an above post)

The exam for OFA for patellas is a manual exam performed by a regular vet. No xrays are used. It is not the same as OFA'ing hips. Just an FYI. Here is the form for having patella's OFA'd: http://www.offa.org/plappbw.pdf

Tghanks and I just found on the form that it is for dogs over 12 months.

This is the form that accompanies the X-rays. I thought X-rays were involved in patellas and Tina confirmed it for me. I, also, just called my vet and he confirmed that OFA'ing patellas do require X-rays to certify.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Diagnosing Patellar Luxation

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Examination and Certification

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The dog is examined awake (chemical restraint is not recommended) and classified by the attending veterinarian according to the application and general information instructions. The veterinarian then completes the application form indicating the the results of the dog's patella evaluation.

The application and fee can then be mailed to OFA. The attending veterinarian and owner is encouraged to submit all evaluations, whether normal or abnormal, for the purpose of completeness of data. There is no OFA fee for entering an abnormal evaluation of the patella in the data bank.

A breed database number will be issued to all dogs found to be normal at 12 months of age or older. The breed database number will contain the age at evaluation and it is recommended that dogs be periodically reexamined as some luxations will not be evident until later in life.

Preliminary Evaluations

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Evaluation of dogs under 12 months of age is encouraged if the owner desires to breed at this age. The most opportune time to gather breeding data is at 6-8 weeks of age prior to the puppy's release to the new owner.



This is what I found out from the OFA website....I just called my vet again after this again and he said that he prefers an X-ray to help with his diagnosis.....I would feel more confident in an X-ray...and do hips along with it :) I hope this clarifies OFA'ing the patellas

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I have knees checked on all puppies at 12 weeks old-- whether they are staying or going to new homes. The exam is done by my vet and it is the same thing they do for OFA but I don't do the forms or pay the OFA fee. In my pap puppies I have had loose knees on two puppies at 12 weeks-- each had one loose knee. By they time they were at the vet for rabies vaccine at 6 mos the knees were tight. Same father, different mothers. One has been spayed and at 3 years old her knees are still tight, the other lives with me and I will have her checked at her first annual exam and on her second annual exam before I would ever consider breeding her.

I have my vet check knees whenever they are there, so annually or more frequently if they happen to be there for a dental or something, and I have him chart the checks. If I were to register the checks with the OFA forms I would probably do it at a pre-breeding check (when they get their brucellosis test). For a male offered to the public for breeding I would register new results annually.

LP is something that should (in an ideal world) be fairly easy to eliminate in a breeding program because it is something that you can usually-- there are always exceptions-- find before breeding a dog, unlike some other heritable conditions (mitral valve degeneration found in many toy breeds comes to mind) that don't emerge until they are mid to old age. However, I have heard of LP showing up in a puppy whose parents, grandparents, siblings and half sibs are perfectly fine, so "flukes" do happen even with the most careful of breeding programs.

If you look at the apps, hips, elbows and legg-calve-perthes all require x-rays. The application for knees does not. I was at a clinic where they were clearing knees and it was just a manual exam but maybe it has changed, that was about 2.5 yrs ago so I could be behind the times. Either way they are pretty easy to detect via a physical exam so personally I would err on the safe side and would not breed anything with loose knees at breeding age. I am extra paranoid as my dogs do agility and obedience so knee stability is a huge concern for me.

I, also, have patellas checked at all vet visits even on my old guys. I just need to have the forms filled out for my male Radar (which will be done when he returns from Canada). My male isn't up for public stud but I do keep his patellas checked frequently as he does love to jump like a rabbit most of the time. I've been lucky as to have kept the pups that have LP. I've had only one puppy I placed that has LP and had the surgery and is doing fine. That line has been stopped and with Radar he has good knees thank goodness :)

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I always admire the agility dogs :) I have one here at home that could do it but I'm into conformation right now but I do plan on getting involved in that one day. Yes, having good knees are a must :)
My vet does X-rays also, but so far I've only done the manual exams on knees.

Donna

Oh now don't hold him back lol! We do conformation as well-- however it is a lot easier to keep up one single yorkie coat and lots of papillon coats (not nearly as much work) than it would be to keep up multiple show yorkies. I don't know if I could do good coat care on multiple yorkies and still have tome for the other stuff, that would be tough.

The nice thing about agility is that you can actually make a lot of progress very quickly even just doing one lesson a week. It isn't like obedience (I do that too) which you have to work on multiple times a week. You should try it out! I just started our yorkie on the equipment this past week and he initially thought I was nuts-- but then he found out there was food involved and viola, he was extremely enthusiastic.