Congenital vs. genetic Hendrick's house

[TLC]

Originally Posted by scoobymom

I think this just adds to my confusion. I would never want a sick dog period, or one with what Bleu has. However, can you asure me that there are breeders out there that have never had a sick puppy? What about the breeder where you got your babies? They have never had a problem? That is the point that I am trying to make.

If the problem is just a fluke and not genetic then how can you blame the breeder? This is where my confusion lies.

Mine have LP, MVD and CT - along with minor defects as a result of BYB - IMO

The headaches and heartbreaks as well as Vet care costs that I have been through already stears me in the Rescue Section from here on out! No need to keep BYB in business

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Lol, don't want to get this thread locked, another member and I have been discussing starting a thread on red flags, and what to look for, so this was on my mind.

I think that is a very good idea...let me know when you start compiling a list of them because I can think of TONS to contribute! It would be a good thing to have and easy to point people to when they want to know what to and not to look for in a breeder.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I think that is a very good idea...let me know when you start compiling a list of them because I can think of TONS to contribute! It would be a good thing to have and easy to point people to when they want to know what to and not to look for in a breeder.

Don't want to hijack this thread, but hasrv4fun, mentioned it in this thread: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...ls-club-5.html, and we have been discussing it. Here's her page, leave her a note; if she thinks someone has lots of ideas, maybe she'll start it. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/members/hasrv4fun.html. I think it's a great idea.

[jeanief]

There is a short sticky post thats locked, on how to find a good breeder. There is not a lot of info and nothing about red flags. With all the talk about good vs bad and red flags I thought for sure there would be a thread on the topic but couldn't find anything. I think thats a great idea. Not everyone will agree about good vs bad but at least there could be some info on possible red flags, and then a person could make their own decision on what they are ok with or not.

Scooby, I don't think you are going to get a answer on how can someone blame the breeder for Bleu's problem. Many people have different opinions. It can go back and forth and then the thread gets locked. You have the info I think from both sides, you have some info on genetic vs congenital, and now you should weigh it all out and then make a choice. If you like the breeder fine, if not, there are many other breeders.

[MyFairLacy]

As Bama stated, there are MANY red flags when looking at this breeder's website...Bleu aside, she does not appear to be a reputable breeder if you follow the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America Guidelines:

CODE OF ETHICS

1) A breeder-member shall strive to conform to the Yorkshire Terrier Standard as approved by the American Kennel Club, to improve progeny, and to reduce faults to a minimum.

This breeder is not breeding show quality dogs. They have too many faults according to the Yorkshire Terrier standard to do well in the conformation ring. She is breeding pet-quality dogs.

2) Members shall comply with the rules of the American Kennel Club concerning record keeping and the registration, identification, sale, and transfer of dogs.

3) Members shall refer potential puppy purchasers to other reputable breeders and be helpful and courteous to those who request information about the breed.

4) All stud dogs and bitches shall be screened prior to breeding for both infectious and hereditary diseases using the then generally accepted and available techniques.

I have yet to see any proof that this breeder actually screens for anything. Screening should include a thorough physical exam, full blood panel, Bile Acid Test, Thyroid Testing, Brucellosis Test, and Luxating patellas, Hip Dysplasia, Legge-calve perthes and heart problems should be carefully checked for as well.

5) A breeder-member selling puppies or offering stud services shall fully disclose to potential clients any serious or disabling hereditary defects, including the reasonable possibility of such defects.

Bleu Boy's father was being offered for sale on her website as "Breeding Stock". Why would she offer a dog for sale as breeding stock, knowing that he produced a puppy with a possible genetic defect?

6) All contractual terms and conditions relating to Yorkshire Terriers shall be reduced to writing and shall be honored by a member.

7) An exhibitor-member shall not alter a dog’s natural appearance except as provided in the Yorkshire Terrier Standard.

8) A member shall not defame another member nor seek to impair a member’s
reputation, provided, however, a member shall report any serious situation that is detrimental to the breed or is inconsistent with these principles.

9) A member’s advertising:
- shall be professional in appearance and location;
- shall not refer to YTCA membership to attempt to enhance integrity or the quality of stock;
- shall not contain any misleading photograph or other graphic materials; and
- shall not use terms as “teacup”, “tiny specialists”, doll faced, or similar terminology.

This breeder advertises Teacups, Tiny Toys, etc. which is HUGE HUGE HUGE NO NO! NO reputable breeder breeds for a tiny size and advertises them as teacups, micros, etc etc. This in itself should be enough to make a buyer run far far away. There is no such thing as a "Teacup" yorkie. A yorkshire Terrier is a toy breed that should not exceed 7lbs. And it is preferred that they be at least 4lbs.

10) A member shall sponsor an applicant for membership only if the member has personally known the applicant for at least two years. At least one of the sponsoring members must have visited the applicants’ facility at least once during the two years immediately preceding the application date.


CODE OF CONDUCT

1) Assistance and encouragement shall be willingly offered by members to show novices and others needing advice and guidance. The welfare of the breed will be in their hands in the future.

2) All dogs will be kept under safe and sanitary conditions, be given maximum health care and protection, including regular inoculations and proper nutrition.

You'd have to check this out for yourself..

3) Healthy spacing between litters will be a priority and unspayed bitches will beprotected from unplanned matings. Bitches will in no case be bred before their second heat or before they are at least 18 months of age, whichever comes first, nor be placed at risk by an unreasonable number of cesarean sections and then only with the concurrence of a veterinarian.

This breeder stated on YorkieTalk before that she breeds her bitches twice a year which is EVERY HEAT. A reputable breeder would not breed back to back heats more than once. Many prefer to breed only one heat cycle a year.

Also, look at the amount of dogs this breeder has. Most reputable breeders have a small breeding program and have one, two or possibly three litters the entire year. This breeder has SEVERAL bitches and stud dogs and has several litters available year-round.

4) Puppies will not be sold or consigned to pet stores, agents, or other commercial enterprises nor sold to disreputable breeders, and neither puppies nor stud services will be offered as prizes or for raffles.

This breeder does not sell on a spay/neuter contract or on limited registration. She sells all puppies with full registration and full breeding rights. She does not care if they are bred by their new owners or not. This falls under "being sold to disreputable breeders." as anyone breeding pet quality puppies does not fall under the category of "reputable breeder."

5) Prospective buyers will be screened as thoroughly as possible to determine their intent, as well as their ability and interest in providing a safe, adequate, loving environment and a long term relationship with a puppy or adult dog.

How carefully does this breeder screen her new homes? Seems like with as many puppies available as she has all the time, it would be hard to find that many EXCELLENT homes.

6) All puppies and dogs offered for sale will be sold with written sales agreements to include clear terms and conditions and be signed by the seller and buyer. The contract will request that the seller be contacted in the event that at any time the owner is unable to keep the dog, it will be the obligation of the seller to assist in the placement of the dog in question.

7) Purchasers will be required to neuter/spay all puppies sold as pets. If specified in the written sales contract, the seller will promptly release limited registration forms upon receipt of a veterinarian’s certification of such spaying or neutering.

Again, this breeder sells all her pet-quality puppies with full breeding rights and full registration.

8) All puppies leaving the breeders possession will be a minimum of twelve (12) weeks of age to facilitate adequate socialization as well as appropriate emotional and temperament development through interaction with siblings, dam and other dogs.

Is she selling puppies before 12 weeks?

9) Breeders will provide puppy buyers with written details of feeding, general care, date and types of a minimum of two (2) inoculations, as well as dates of wormings, grooming instructions, etc. and be available to offer future advise as needed.

10) Stud service will be offered only by and to AKC Full Registered, healthy, mature dogs and bitches, respectively, and only of sound temperament. The dogs and Bitches should be free of serious congenital and hereditary defects. Stud service will be refused for any mating which is considered to not be in the best interest of the breed.

11) Animals recently exposed to the risks of infectious diseases and bitches with nursing whelp will not be exhibited.

12) Members realize that they represent the dog fancy in general and Yorkshire Terriers specifically to the general public. Members will act in a professional and good sportsman-like manner at all times and will respect the rules of hotels/motels, other show sites and of all show sponsors.

This breeder violates MANY of the YTCA's rules which would make them an unreputable breeder. Why would you want to buy from a breeder that purposely breeds tiny yorkies that do not meet the Yorkshire Terrier standard and who sells all their puppies with full breeding rights where they can end up being bred by a clueless petowner?

It's important to find a reputable breeder who knows their lines very well. knows where they came from, what they've produced. For the prices she sells her puppies for, you can buy a well-bred puppy from a reputable breeder for the same price.

[scoobymom]

MyFairLacy,

Your response does not answer my question... Which was how do you know? I checked with the AKC and Hendrick's House has had great inspections, so I am not questioning them. I am asking the question, how do YOU know that these other great and perfect breeders have never had health issues with their puppies? How do we blame a breeder for a congenital defect? Those are my questions. I think your response possibly belongs to another thread because I never asked for "red flags".

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by scoobymom

MyFairLacy,

Your response does not answer my question... Which was how do you know? I checked with the AKC and Hendrick's House has had great inspections, so I am not questioning them. I am asking the question, how do YOU know that these other great and perfect breeders have never had health issues with their puppies? How do we blame a breeder for a congenital defect? Those are my questions. I think your response possibly belongs to another thread because I never asked for "red flags".

So you are ONLY concerned about the past health issues that their dogs have produced? You're not concerned at all with the other issues that make this breeder unethical?? I would think anyone looking into buying a puppy from a breeder would consider ALL things.

While it's great that a breeder passed an AKC inspection, that honestly does NOT tell me a breeder is reputable. I know a lot of USDA breeders & puppymills pass AKC inspections so that doesn't necessarily tell me in itself that a breeder is a good one. AKC has stricter guidelines than most other registries but they are pretty lax compared to what a lot of us would expect in a breeder.

With that being said..the answer to your question is that just because a breeder has a health issue in their line does not make them a bad breeder in itself. You have to look at the situation surrounding that health issue. Did the breeder breed dogs that they knew the history of and did they health screen prior to breeding? When the health issue occured, how did they respond? Did they stop breeding the lines that produced the problem, investigate the situation?? Or did they continue breeding dogs in that line and sell the sire of the puppy with the health issue as "breeding stock" so that it can continue to produce potential health issues? How did the breeder respond to the buyer of the puppy with the health issue??

In this case, this breeder only offers a replacement puppy or partial refund for "life threatening" genetic health issues. I HATE when breeders throw in "life threatening" because it can always be argued by the breeder on what is and is not life threatening..it's a loophole to protect to breeder and screw over the buyer. Instead, reputable breeders guarantee against all genetic and congenital health issues. In my opinion (and from talking to breeders I respect) offering a replacement puppy is NOT the right thing to do. What pet owner is going to replace the puppy that they have already fallen in love with? Instead a good breeder would pay for treatment UP TO the full price of the puppy and be there for support.

So no you can't necessarily fault a breeder for having one health issue in their lines...that could happen to anyone. It's what the breeder does after that that shows what kind of breeder they are. And you have to look at other details of their breeding program. In this case, the breeder violates many of the YTCA's rules which makes them an unreputable breeder.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

So you are ONLY concerned about the past health issues that their dogs have produced? You're not concerned at all with the other issues that make this breeder unethical?? I would think anyone looking into buying a puppy from a breeder would consider ALL things.

While it's great that a breeder passed an AKC inspection, that honestly does NOT tell me a breeder is reputable. I know a lot of USDA breeders & puppymills pass AKC inspections so that doesn't necessarily tell me in itself that a breeder is a good one. AKC has stricter guidelines than most other registries but they are pretty lax compared to what a lot of us would expect in a breeder.

With that being said..the answer to your question is that just because a breeder has a health issue in their line does not make them a bad breeder in itself. You have to look at the situation surrounding that health issue. Did the breeder breed dogs that they knew the history of and did they health screen prior to breeding? When the health issue occured, how did they respond? Did they stop breeding the lines that produced the problem, investigate the situation?? Or did they continue breeding dogs in that line and sell the sire of the puppy with the health issue as "breeding stock" so that it can continue to produce potential health issues? How did the breeder respond to the buyer of the puppy with the health issue??

In this case, this breeder only offers a replacement puppy or partial refund for "life threatening" genetic health issues. I HATE when breeders throw in "life threatening" because it can always be argued by the breeder on what is and is not life threatening..it's a loophole to protect to breeder and screw over the buyer. Instead, reputable breeders guarantee against all genetic and congenital health issues. In my opinion (and from talking to breeders I respect) offering a replacement puppy is NOT the right thing to do. What pet owner is going to replace the puppy that they have already fallen in love with? Instead a good breeder would pay for treatment UP TO the full price of the puppy and be there for support.

So no you can't necessarily fault a breeder for having one health issue in their lines...that could happen to anyone. It's what the breeder does after that that shows what kind of breeder they are. And you have to look at other details of their breeding program. In this case, the breeder violates many of the YTCA's rules which makes them an unreputable breeder.

Not trying to argue this point because I don't know anything about this particular breeder, just want to be clear about this, it is your belief that a reputable breeder should offer purchase price back, and you keep the dog? Do you know if this is common? I've heard of breeders who offer money refunded with the return of the dog, and I've heard of replacement dogs, but I wasn't aware that any offered a full money refund without getting the dog back. I realize people fall in love with their dogs, and don't wish to give them back, but this happens quite frequently according to the threads on Yorkietalk. This seems to be a good thing, if it could be proven the defect was from breeding. It seems like many breeders don't offer anything for any reason. I just wanted to know what the better breeders do in this case. There seems to be an awful lot of people out there that would like free puppies, and I wonder how a breeder would protect himself against this?

[MyFairLacy]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Not trying to argue this point because I don't know anything about this particular breeder, just want to be clear about this, it is your belief that a reputable breeder should offer purchase price back, and you keep the dog? Do you know if this is common? I've heard of breeders who offer money refunded with the return of the dog, and I've heard of replacement dogs, but I wasn't aware that any offered a full money refund without getting the dog back. I realize people fall in love with their dogs, and don't wish to give them back, but this happens quite frequently according to the threads on Yorkietalk. This seems to be a good thing, if it could be proven the defect was from breeding. It seems like many breeders don't offer anything for any reason. I just wanted to know what the better breeders do in this case. There seems to be an awful lot of people out there that would like free puppies, and I wonder how a breeder would protect himself against this?

I've spoken with breeders who have a health guarantee such as this. For ex. a Two year health guarantee against all hereditary & congenital health conditions. Obviously vet records must be provided, and sometimes the breeders require that their own vet see the dog as well. A breeder should always be willing to take a dog back. However, to REQUIRE that a buyer return a puppy is not right in my opinion. I've spoken with breeders who will honor their health guarantee and will pay for treatment UP TO the purchase price. If the treatment exceeds the purchase price, they receive the full refund to help with expenses.

Most people aren't going to be able to fake a major illness/condition with their dog...when vet records are produced for the breeder. If a breeder is going to have a health guarantee, shouldn't they be willing to assist with medical bills if there is a problem covered by that guarantee? There arent too many of us that would give up our babies because they have a health issue...but buying from a breeder that has a guarantee such as the one I'm describing is most fair and ethical.

It's not at all fair for a breeder to sell a buyer a $1500 puppy who costs them thousands more in vet bills 6 months later due to a genetic or congential condition. The breeder should be obligated to refund that $1500 as they sold a puppy with a problem.

I wish Texas had puppy lemon laws to protect buyers.

[hasrv4fun]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Don't want to hijack this thread, but hasrv4fun, mentioned it in this thread: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...ls-club-5.html, and we have been discussing it. Here's her page, leave her a note; if she thinks someone has lots of ideas, maybe she'll start it. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/members/hasrv4fun.html. I think it's a great idea.

I am giving this idea some more condideration so if anyone wants to help - send me your ideas and lets see how they can be compiled to be concise without being confusing - i guess some terms that make some of us cringe -such as "Teacup " will have to be overlooked even though it is improper.

We really might be able to make a short list that would be a help in locating a trustworth breeder without making a cheat sheet for unreputable breeders.
I realize that perhaps we could unknowingly be helping disreputable ones to clean up their sites as it was jokingly suggested to me.

Come on Girls - there are enough of us old timers on here to come up with a way to help the uninformed be able to sort out a good breeder from the many many puppy mills on the web and other places all over this country.

Also to address another issue - When i guarantee a puppy ( as i do guarantee every puppy i sell or place ) then my contract states what must be done for me to know the puppy has a problem ( ie: confirmed by a vet ) and that i replace if customer wants or will refund the purchase price and if they choose , they can keep puppy. Now that being said , I can truthfully tell you and my records will prove that in all these years , I have had one puppy that was born with a enlarged heart ( that did not show on his xray untill he was 4 mo old and was starting to have a problem ) - that puppy was replaced. ( I had previously as i do with all my dogs , had both parents tested for every thing that can be tested for - so the vet determined that this was just one of those things that can happen.)

[Brooklynn]

I wasn't going to post on this thread BUT I would do exactly what the above poster (myfairlacy) is saying. My health garanutee is for 3 years. I would return or pay up to the purchase price of said puppy with the health issue and let said puppy stay with the new owners if they chose to keep the pup and spay and neuter the parents with the problem. BTDT.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[BLEU BOY BARBER]

[MyFairLacy]

It's great to see breeders with solid health guarantees that protect the buyer, puppy, and themselves at the same time. I feel like breeders that love the dogs would WANT to help that puppy they produced and the new owner at the same time.

[hasrv4fun]

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy

It's great to see breeders with solid health guarantees that protect the buyer, puppy, and themselves at the same time. I feel like breeders that love the dogs would WANT to help that puppy they produced and the new owner at the same time.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I wasn't going to post on this thread BUT I would do exactly what the above poster (myfairlacy) is saying. My health garanutee is for 3 years. I would return or pay up to the purchase price of said puppy with the health issue and let said puppy stay with the new owners if they chose to keep the pup and spay and neuter the parents with the problem. BTDT.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Wow, I'm impressed!