In-Breeding what comes of it????
 

I am curious about a son to mother product...what comes of the future litters and should a product of this in breeding be used as a stud...all the testing has been done he cleared....but what about his off spring????

I am trying to do this the right way and I have a chance to add him to the program, BUT.............I NEED info.

HELP!!!

Inbreeding brings out the best but also the worst. They've doubled up on the mother so it would depend on her genes and her pedigree. Is she worthy of being doubled up? I would want a genetic history of her line. Choosing a stud isn't easy. I would want him to have been evaluated by at least 2 judges/exhibitors and have a full health workup done.

I have only inbred twice in my years of breeding. Once was a litter of beagles, we bred father to daughter and the puppies were beautiful. The other breeding was with my first Yorkie and we bred father to daughter and they produced some nice puppies and I kept a male from that breeding and he produced some pretty puppies over the years. Inbreeding can bring out all the good qualities or all the bad qualities of the dogs. It is best to really research your lines and know the faults of your dog before you attempt this. I know many show breeders inbreed but they have experience and knowledge about how to do it properly. Sometimes a male that is the product of inbreeding can be very valuable in a breeding program IF he has outstanding qualities that you want to pass on to your lines. I feel that a inbreed male would work best in breeding to totally unrelated or distantly related females. If you start inbreeding and line breeding too closely you can run into problems. You should really think ahead as to what your goals are for the future, figure out how many yorkies you might have in your breeding program and who would you breed this male to. You might realized that a totally unrelated male would work out better.

testing
 

I am sick to death of hearing a breed potential has been tested and found clear of everything. There are so many problems that crop up in genetics and there is NO tests available for it...sure a Yorkie can have a perfectly healthy liver, no signs of a shunt..but that does not mean 100% he will never sire a liver shunt puppy..there is no genetic test for LS easily available to the breeder...you take your chances.

He can have perfect knees, but he can sire luxating patellas, Legg Calve Perthes, PRA, the list is endless.
How about a bad bite..both parents can have perfect bites and produce a pup or pups with under or over bites..it is a recessive gene.

When you select an inbred stud for your breeding program, you are NOT "trying" one breeding...a stud can sire dozens of puppies, a one time breeding may produce 3 or 4 pups...I would avoid an inbred stud or bitch at any cost...

So, in order to keep the line strong and not tempting Mother Nature..and that woman is a bitch!! we avoid inbreeding..or the wise breeder does...it will catch up to you at some point, always does...How do you think the Liver shunt problem spread in the first place..INBREEDING!!! Yeah, I'm screaming..sorry.

I am not very experienced, and still always learning.....but, I have to agree!:thumbup::thumbup:

I am trying to learn and I was REALLY hoping that the whole screaming thing would not happen............so much for that.....How is anyone supposed to learn if they always get the screaming thing??????????????

This is why I did not start posting until a short time ago....And will probably STOP posting....then every one can get mad because I am breeding in the DARK....I have really learned a lot from this site but, there are some questions that are very specific the the situation.

Thank You to the replies that are trying to be informative.

So I guess that you are sayig that you have produced all of the genetic problems out there and that there is no possible way of knowing? Right?

I'm certainly no expert but wouldn't personally buy a pup that was the product of such an in-breeding. Grandfather to grand-daughter, uncle to niece or half brother/sister maybe but not mother to son. Yorkierose made some very good points about recessive genes and you definitely increase the chance of them being expressed in such a mating. I don't think she was yelling at YOU but more yelling about that type of breeding and also the importance that people place on health screening in general as if that is some guarantee you won't have problem puppies. At least, that's the way I read it. Her posts are usually some of the most informed that you'll see here and if you go back and re-read hers, I think you'll see there was some great info there. :aimeeyork :animal-pa :animal-pa :animal-pa :animal-pa :)

I did not think that YorkieRose was yelling at me...and Yes she is a wealth of information. I do believe that there is no way to guarantee healthy pups. Any breeding can have a problem pop up....I have looked and looked and I can not find a stud that I really like...and I am just trying to get all the info that I can.

THANK YOU!!!!! I agree 100%!!!!!!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

breeding
 

Can you allow me to rant once in a great while and forgive me...?? I rarely scream, but some times it keeps me from going insane...thanks for you understanding.

question
 

I do not understand your question...please rephrase it..

I have to speak up for YorkieRose - she's a long time breeder & has helped countless people with advise. She rarely ever speaks up like this.

Maybe put yourself in her shoes for a minute -

Every single day we're seeing serious health issues being passed along all over the place - puppies are dying at an alarming rate - surgery is now considered ROUTINE with yorkies & people are jumping into breeding just cause they CAN

IF you were a long time breeder who's loved Yorkies for years and years -- you'd scream too...I don't mean what you're asking is wrong at all - I think it's GREAT you came here to ask. Don't stop posting over it. Breeding is a BIG subject.

Oh and ps - Pat ...I'll let ya rant !!
we're all entitled to get a little 'passionate'

breeding
 

This was meant to be ONE post, but for some reason I get cut off...

If you have an option to add this male to your breeding program, is this male from someone you trust..a mentor..? IS he from a reputable breeder..I do not think so since you are asking for advise here... that concerns me..not that you are asking for advise, but the fact you have not given any insight as to what the breeder says about your plans...of course that is your business, but it helps sort this out.
Since the breeder did a close inbreeding and is willing to sell for breeding, I pretty much write this breeder off...harsh, but breeding is such a serious undertaking, we have to be hard on people..there is little room for error...we are dealing with a living creature..we place these puppies with unsuspecting pet lovers who can wind up with a pack of problems, that cost them a bundle at the vets and break their hearts...

There was a time NO one heard of liver shunt..then there was a close inbreeding and we started seeing it in litters traced to this breeding..now we all know about liver shunt. I think LS could have been kept buried deep in the genes if it was not for inbreeding..it was forced out..is this good or bad..I say, bad..we could have gone a life time with out it ever popping up, right?

You might say that is good to inbreed and force it out, but the problem is this...many breeders will never share the genetic problems in their lines..so you buy a puppy thinking all is well, and you are later faced with problems...lt is nothing to try and correct..you avoid it by S/N dogs who produce it..it is foolish to inbreed to see if shunts are in the line..it produces so much suffering for dog and owner..not worth it..avoid it..and that goes for any disease IMO..

I have no desire to inbreed to see if there are bad bites, bad knees, bad anything in my Yorkies..avoid as much as you can by breeding sound dogs to other sound dogs...not too close, outcrossing when necessary to Yorkies of like type to preserve type...
I wish you good luck..and please for give my screaming...! The only thing I ever scream about is the breed...it is all about preserving the breed.

PS..thanks Vee..you understand me so well...LOL

I'm in complete agreement with you on this one. I'm no expert, but I do think I have a good understanding of genetics. If any diseases are predisposed genetically on recessive genes, it is possible to inherit those kinds of diseases to their offspring. Tests would not show come back positive for diseases like these. But if both a mother and son are carriers of the bad gene, and they are bred together, the chances that a new litter of puppies is actually affected by the disease increases dramatically!!! Inbreeding could be a real problem.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I know I was a little late to the party, but I was going to post then realized I had to go to church! So if my comment is a little late, SORRY!!!

I do understand the ranting from time to time. I am TRYING to do the right thing and get a good start. (A house built on a good foundation will be standing a long time from now!!!) Right. I asked aquestion and I got several anwers....The only reason I asked was because the breeder and I had talked several times (via email) and I REALLY like the looks of this young man (BTW he is 2 and proven) and then we talked on the phone and she dropped the bomb.:thumbdown:eek::thumbdown

It truley upset me and I wanted the advice of the TYers on line. I am glad that you gave me your advice. It just came off a little harsh!

And I was already upset that after all the hours of searching and just when I think that I may have found some one that has a beautiful male.........he is a product of inbreeding!

I am sorry, I was saying, basically, that there is NO possible way of ever being 100% sure that you are not producing something with some sort of deffect?

From my understanding, no, there are no guarantees. The best that you could hope for is to try to breed sound dogs with other sound dogs and making sure you look at their lineage before hand as other experienced breeders have recommended on this thread. That way you increase your chance of healthy puppies.

BTW he is 2 years old and proven...

My original question was.........How will his offspring be affected from him being a product of inbreeding....

I do understand this.....I guess I should just let it go and for get it......

I'm not a breeder, but I would go with your gut. If you were upset when you heard about it, pass. Something better will come along. Sometimes patience pays off in the long run!

Sorry if things didn't work out the way you would have liked. If the advice sounded harsh or mean, I'm pretty sure it's because people here had all the best intentions and didn't want you to go through any heartbreak over sick or dying puppies.

Okay let's say that a genetic defect is associated with a sex linked gene. As a product of an inbreeding he would than be homozygous recessive for that gene. Because it is a sex linked gene it is carried by the male but shown by the female. He is bred and his daughter now is affected by this genetic defect. Inbreeding may make him prepotent for some excellent qualities but it would also make him prepotent for any bad ones that was in his line as well.

You are right..no 100% way to know..if a male sires puppies with perhaps 3 to 4 different blood line bitches, resulting in at least 15 pups and all are free of serious genetic defects, you have a good idea what he will do in the future...and usually, but not always you will see bad bites, structure faults, non-life threathening problems with this number.

Remember, many genetic problems skip a generation, so this male may sire pups that are fine and then next generation falls a part...and unfortunately, not all problems reveal themself in the first 12 months...PRA can take years. As a rule Legg Calve Perthes shows around 8 to 10 months..it can make you afraid to sell anything if you use this male...and vets are known to advise pet owners to look at pedigrees for inbreeding when problems occur...whether it is genetic or not...

I wonder how many of these inbred puppies were used in breeding programs knowing the increased risk, but because they did have the ability to improve type, they decided to take the risk?

I know of a Springer Spaniel line that was producing Champions left and right, but later they were going blind at five years old. Even an ethical, experienced breeder could be producing a serious flaw for several years before they knew it.

This is so true, we saw alot of the results of this in the latter 70's from the breeding practises of the 60's in Cocker Spaniels. Breeding is always a crap shoot but when you're breeding this closely it's also a 2 edged sword.

So, basically, his offspring may not show any signs until latter in life and maybe not at all....and then problems may skip a generation and then pop up....and any or all of that COULD be because of him being in-bred........BUT could it be some other reason????

odds
 

It is a matter of odds.....Breeders try to tip the odds in their favor and produce sound pups...there are a list of factors in doing this...not just genes.
When you inbreed, you reduce your odds..visialize a pot full of genes, with each breeding you have to stick you hand in a pull out sets of genes for a puppy..when the gene pool is reduced by so many of the identical ancestors, your odds of pulling out the bad genes are greatly increased...I have yet to find any line with no faults...the worst you may get is bad bites or poor top lines..BUT it will bother you greatly if you are serious about breeding..you will look at that undershot jaw, kick yourself..and God forbid you get a life threathening problem..your life will be nothing but stress, worry and tears.

He may sire sound puppies, he may not, you have to gamble and find out..I perfer to tilt the odds in my favor..I can not take the stress of a seriously ill puppy...been there, done that..and have the scars on my heart to prove it..

PS..I have never in 35 yrs seen an inbreed Yorkie not produce problems at some point, especially if their offspring are bred.