Free Whelping

[Woogie Man]

Thanks for all the replies. I kind of figured there was no one size fits all answer. The reason I asked in the first place was that I was reading on the Scottish Terrier. In my reading, it was stated that many Scotties in the past had trouble whelping but that problem had mostly been bred out of them. So the obvious question, to me, is this a problem that can be bred out and, if so, shouldn't it. Isn't this a problem that, like known genetic flaws, may or may not be passed on to offspring? It seems that in the case of genetic (or suspected genetic) flaws, the universal opinion is that the sire, dam or both should not be bred again once a pup shows up with a problem even if the parents have been tested clear. I do realize that a dog's inability to free whelp is not the same thing as a life threatening or quality of life defect, but should it not be regarded as a problem that should be avoided if we are working to better the breed? More pointedly, would you buy a female puppy to be used for breeding if you knew its mom had to have a c-section? Also, if this can be bred out of the Scottie, why not the Yorkie? I'm asking these questions for my own education and not to 'throw stones' at anyone's breeding program so please don't take offense. I've always believed that the only stupid question is the one not asked so I'm asking.

[bjh]

I complete agree with what Rose said. Also, I feel the size of the bitch plays an important part in reducing the risk of a c-section. I will not breed a female under 5 lbs and even breeding the 5 lb to 6 lb bitches makes me nervous. Most of my breeding females have always been in the 7 to 8 lb range. In over 10 years of breeding I have only had one female require a c-section and she was a 5 lb female with one big puppy in her. She went on later to have puppies naturally. Dixie, my first yorkie, was also a 5 lb girl and she always delivered naturally.

[YorkieRose]

Good questions...Yes, I would buy a puppy from a bitch who had a section because I have never found the need for a c-section inherited.

I would most certainly breed a sire and dam again if they produced a "problem" puppy...I would breed the dam to different sire. If the same problem arose again, she would be spayed. One "problem" puppy does not make the entire gene pool unsound...if you see a problem cropping up several times, then it is time to stop breeding those involved..but if you breed long enough, you will most likely get at least one of each problem in the book...no breeder can breed for 30 or 40 years and not see genetic faults.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Good questions...Yes, I would buy a puppy from a bitch who had a section because I have never found the need for a c-section inherited.

I would most certainly breed a sire and dam again if they produced a "problem" puppy...I would breed the dam to different sire. If the same problem arose again, she would be spayed. One "problem" puppy does not make the entire gene pool unsound...if you see a problem cropping up several times, then it is time to stop breeding those involved..but if you breed long enough, you will most likely get at least one of each problem in the book...no breeder can breed for 30 or 40 years and not see genetic faults.

Thanks so much for your answers. It's only from breeders such as yourself that we can get such honest answers based on your many years of experience. I'm in my 5th year of breeding Yorkies and so far (knock on wood) have been very lucky to have had only one problem puppy (twisted femurs). That has been trying enough, not only for me but mainly for Bijou as she has to live with it. I'll have to get back with you in another 20 years or so to see if I've beaten the odds. I certainly hope so, some of the possibilities frankly scare the crap out of me.

[nudiva37]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Thanks for all the replies. I kind of figured there was no one size fits all answer. The reason I asked in the first place was that I was reading on the Scottish Terrier. In my reading, it was stated that many Scotties in the past had trouble whelping but that problem had mostly been bred out of them. So the obvious question, to me, is this a problem that can be bred out and, if so, shouldn't it. Isn't this a problem that, like known genetic flaws, may or may not be passed on to offspring? It seems that in the case of genetic (or suspected genetic) flaws, the universal opinion is that the sire, dam or both should not be bred again once a pup shows up with a problem even if the parents have been tested clear. I do realize that a dog's inability to free whelp is not the same thing as a life threatening or quality of life defect, but should it not be regarded as a problem that should be avoided if we are working to better the breed? More pointedly, would you buy a female puppy to be used for breeding if you knew its mom had to have a c-section? Also, if this can be bred out of the Scottie, why not the Yorkie? I'm asking these questions for my own education and not to 'throw stones' at anyone's breeding program so please don't take offense. I've always believed that the only stupid question is the one not asked so I'm asking.

thanks for bringing the topic... I have enjoyed the responses... this forum gave me much food for thought...

[C C Kent]

Lot's of good advice already, especially YorkieRose....here's how I make the breeding size decision to avoid the c-section.

The genetic size of these smaller males may be a significant factor in the c-section increase. If the male matures at 3.5 lbs but the average size of his siblings and parents is 6 lbs...he is an anomaly and should be treated as such. Genetically he's a 6 lb male and will likely produce offspring that are much larger than himself. If you are like many, searching for a well pedigreed smaller male you are running the risk that you will buy a nice small male that will produce larger than himself because the show line he comes from is larger. If you take this genetically larger male and breed him to a 5 lb female whose siblings and parents average 7-8 lbs she again is genetically larger than her size would indicate.

On the surface this pair would produce offspring in the 3.5-5 lb range but that's unlikely. When you average the genetic potential of the two parents and their siblings you get 6.5lb average adults. Take that to the growth chart and you find that the average puppy may be 5.5-6.0 oz at whelp. Most 5 lb females don't have any hope of free whelping a 5.5oz puppy. Some or maybe most of the puppies will be smaller...but it only takes one to merit a c-section.

With due diligence in researching the line each of the parents come from and charting the likely whelp size, it would obviously be a bad decision to breed these two.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

There is no black and white answer to this question. What was the reason for needing a section? One over sized pup, puppy blocking birth canal, weak contractions..on and on.

It does not sit right with me to make a blanket statement as this or any... and if you do not comply, you are unethical, uncaring etc.

I give a bitch two chances...many free whelp the second time and there after..a few do not and are spayed.
I had a girl with very poor contractions.. gave oxyie and then a section...vet said to try again...I thought if she had poor contractions the first time, she would have poor contractions the next..stands to reason, right? My vet was there for me 24/7, so I bred the girl again...she free whelped with strong contractions..and went on to have a couple more litters. I have had girls with one large pup and sectioned, but the next litter was 4 and no problems...see my point?

I have had bitches free whelp two litters, need a section and go on to free whelp the next...
No one has the right to tell the knowledgable, well seasoned breeder how to breed..the novice needs a good mentor to help them make wise choices. I do respect those who are very concerned with the welfare of these bitches, but no one has to tell the ethcial breeder how to do it..

[wildcard]

For me it totally depends on the reason for the section, the family history of the bitch, and the value of the bitch to my breeding program. My last pregnant bitch was sectioned after her singleton puppy's placenta separated prematurely, prior to her entering labor. Not unusual where there is only a singleton. Now I can't know at this point whether it was bad luck re: the singleton, the fact that she was bred to a stud whose sperm quality is probably low (he was 11 at the time), whether she is not going to release more than one egg per cycle, etc. In other words, I don't have enough knowledge about the cause of this section to make a decision. I do know however that she comes from lines, both paternal and maternal, that have large litters and have always free whelped. I also know that I specifically purchased this bitch because of her incredible pedigree. In other words, the pros of trying again far outweigh the cons, because there is no clear indication that the problem that caused the section was her problem generally versus a single breeding gone awry. So she will be bred again, after she skips a season. Were this to happen again she will probably be spayed (not at the same time as the section). Now another of my bitches was bred twice, both times requiring a section due to uterine enertia of an unknown cause. We gave her that second chance, she proved not to be able to whelp naturally because for whatever reason she would stop contracting. So she was spayed after her second litter.

There are so many reasons why a bitch might not free whelp- it may be her problem, it may be something as simple as a one time whelp mispresentation (for instance a friend of mine had a puppy who instead of heading down the birth canal starting back up into the other uterine horn, since sideways birth is not possible a section was required). Either way I am going to give the bitch a second chance to prove she is able to free whelp so that I can have more information on which to base a decision.

Also worth pointing out that for a second pregnancy on a bitch who was sectioned due to uterine enertia with an unknown cause I would most certainly do progesterone testing during breeding so I would have a firm due date (I do this anyway but I would be particularly adament about it in a second whelping of a previously sectioned bitch) so I would know for certain if she went past her due date and needed an elective section for that second breeding. I might also try Whelpwise for fetal monitoring during such a pregnancy.

I have a bitch who is borderline insofar as her size and ability to free whelp. It is not just weight that matters but the span of the pelvis. I have had several experienced breeders feel her and the general consensus is that she is too narrow to whelp naturally. She is not a bitch whose lines are hard for me to get, she is my first homebred girl and I am very emotionally attached to her. I am heading off any problems with her by just not breeding her in the first place LOL.

I am guessing the issue with Scotties is one of large head size at birth versus a narrow birth canal (like bulldogs but on a lesser scale). You can breed for a larger pelvis span if that is the issue, so I can see how as a breed you can work on that problem. I don't see why that cannot be an emphasis in toy breeds as well, only breeding girls that have a wider pelvis (i.e. I have no intention of breeding my girl with the narrow pelvis). But that is not going to eliminate other issues such as malpresentations (true breaches, two puppies trying to exit at once etc).

[Brooklynn]

I agree with Yorkierose! My bitch Cammie free whelped her first puppy but had to section the 2nd puppy after 6 hours of waiting on the second puppy because of weak contractions so it really depends on the bitch itself. I've always had a free whelper and I tried to breed Cammie again but she didn't take again so with her age in consideration and the number of times she has missed a breeding I just had her spayed last week. I my self prefer a free whelper but sections are sometimes needed in emergency situtations but wouldn't stop me from breeding one more time to see if she free whelped and if she didn't then I'd spay. I don't believe in more than 2 sections anyway. Just my humble opinion

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Ladyhawk]

We also need to remember that the male does not determine the size of the pup at birth. The female, position of the pup in the uterine horn, and the resources determine the birth weight. The birth weight does not always correspond to the adult weight. I have a little guy who is not quite 4.5 pounds grown who weighed 7 oz. at birth. He had the uterine horn all to himself and had the resources to be big. The structure of the females rear is of much more importance than the size of the stud. I was given the rule of 3 fingers for the pernuim and two fingers for the pelvis to determine if the female is broad enough to free whelp.

[gardenyorkies]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

We also need to remember that the male does not determine the size of the pup at birth. .

Absolutley correct!

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by wildcard

I am guessing the issue with Scotties is one of large head size at birth versus a narrow birth canal (like bulldogs but on a lesser scale). You can breed for a larger pelvis span if that is the issue, so I can see how as a breed you can work on that problem. I don't see why that cannot be an emphasis in toy breeds as well, only breeding girls that have a wider pelvis (i.e. I have no intention of breeding my girl with the narrow pelvis). But that is not going to eliminate other issues such as malpresentations (true breaches, two puppies trying to exit at once etc).

This probably answers my question most directly. Thanks very much but I have to say that the responses from all you very experienced breeders are MUCH appreciated. Thank you all. I don't believe I've ever seen this issue fleshed out so much before with you all giving so much detail on the variety of whelping problems, the approach you take when confronted with it and the reasoning behind those decisions. This has become great reference material and will remain a 'sticky', in my head at least. I've always tried to play it safe by having a larger dam to sire except in one case and fortunately all have been free whelps. In the one case I used a 5 pound female with a good rear and a 6 pound male. I knew the lines, however, and felt confident as I knew the male was from a smaller line. As it worked out, the dam free whelped 3 healthy pups that range at 6 months from 3 1/4 to 3 1/2 pounds. I never would have tried that had I not known the lines of the sire and dam. Someone posted earlier about the 'genetic size' of a dog and that particular breeding would be a good example of that. It was about as much of a risk as I'm willing to take and only did it because I really wanted to bring the 2 pedigrees together and the male grew a bit more than I had expected and it was a borderline decision even then. If he had gotten any bigger, I don't think I would have attempted it. I do think that playing it safe early on gave me the experience and confidence to consider more desirable pairings. It's so true when you all say things about what an experienced breeder knows; I feel I'm finally at a point to truly understand that. There is no substitute for experience and thanks for sharing yours here.

[majesticyorkies]

All good points! every Mom human or animal are different and there are so many reasons a c- cetion is needed to fix them just because a puppy was turned sideways is no reason can happen to any one does not mean she will not whelp pups on her on just fine later this is not a genictic thing, it is just mother nature. However you always need xrays afew days before the Mm is due to be on the safe side, Good post good ??,s enjoyed reading this. Thank you Denise

[YorkieRose]

When I say you will get one of every problem in the book...I mean most minor ones..hernias, clefts, bad stifles, bad bites, etc
The serious stuff like liver shunt and fatal problems do crop up. I have had liver shunt as recent as 12 yrs ago....no Legg Calve Perthes as yet.

..a few with bad legs, but at adulthood it was barely noticable, so never put one down. A few disemboweled, a few with brain damage, but it has been minor and they have done well as pets.
I recently talked with a breeder who got a puppy with one good eye, other is unformed...so far that has escaped me.

I had stud service for many years..that adds lots of strange things that can pop up that I had not seen in my own..so if you have not gotten it in 2o yrs, you have most likely known another breeder who has....

[majesticyorkies]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

When I say you will get one of every problem in the book...I mean most minor ones..hernias, clefts, bad stifles, bad bites, etc
The serious stuff like liver shunt and fatal problems do crop up. I have had liver shunt as recent as 12 yrs ago....no Legg Calve Perthes as yet.

..a few with bad legs, but at adulthood it was barely noticable, so never put one down. A few disemboweled, a few with brain damage, but it has been minor and they have done well as pets.
I recently talked with a breeder who got a puppy with one good eye, other is unformed...so far that has escaped me.

I had stud service for many years..that adds lots of strange things that can pop up that I had not seen in my own..so if you have not gotten it in 2o yrs, you have most likely known another breeder who has....

I have seen afriend of mine robin's pups have had cliff paletes is this inhareted? I have had some under bites in the past is this too inhareited? as for the others I ahve been I guess really lucky.