willman puppy mills
 

they sell to petland clean or not they are a puupy mill was in petland today they had a biewer that is 11 weeks old to young to be away from its mom and the puppy wa sick care to answer ? kay

Well I was looking up info to Map D&S Kennel because I'm getting another puppy from them and came across this thread. I have to tell you that I have been in touch with Doug and Sharon for years. I researched them before I bought my yorkie 4 years ago and have kept them updated with photos and I even have photos of my dog's dam & sire and grandfather as well.

They do breed yorkies and chihuahas but the dogs pretty much have free run of that house and are outside playing a lot. It's a beautiful place and the nursery has a rocking chair with a television set in there too. Sharon also keeps meticulous records and we've been trying to see how I can get another puppy with my dog's disposition. I wouldn't buy from a puppy mill but I do want a yorkie pup that I can raise and there certainly are not quality ones in my area and the ones they do have are off the chart expensive as well.. Chocolates and parti yorkies are all i see here these days and it's ridiculous.

Hmm, you've been a member of this site a very long time yet your first post is to support a breeder that others have done research on and found they wouldn't support?

May I ask what kinds of health testing is done on the sire & dam prior to breeding? I'm not talking about the cursory once over given by a local vet but true testing to ensure the health of offspring.

I guess that's because I think that Doug and Sharon are nice people and I've kept up with them via phone and email for years. They are normal everyday people and just because they have a usda license this forum classifies them as a puppy mill. Not fair in my opinion. They are breeders but then aren't people who sell show dogs breeders too (and many are selling online as well)? Why aren't they classified puppy mills when they whip out litter after litter and sell them online for $2500 or more each. What, showdogs can't be abused?

Nicky's sire and that entire line has dna testing if that's what you are talking about though it means nothing to me. He was healthy, playful and full of life and love when we got him. That's what is important to me.

There are plenty of places I would NEVER buy from including a pet store. I researched and every person looking to purchase a dog should do the same. I think at the time I asked for pictures of mom and dad which they sent me. I have pics they've sent over the years as well and don't believe one bit that they are fake.

Bottom Line:
1. I hate puppy mills and wish they would be wiped off the face of the earth.
2. There is a supply and demand for particular breeds. Doug and Sharon have chosen to fill that need.
3. Not everyone can afford to pay the outrageous price for a show dog bloodline and again Doug and Sharon fill that need as well.

Speaking of show dogs. How many of them are at the very least mentally abused? Do you truly think they all enjoy constant training, competitions, and continual grooming in addition to travelling so much? Maybe they just want to be cuddled and allowed to go outside in the back and run around, get dirty and enjoy a life without all the fuss....

re-reading that post I don't think I really explained what people who are looking to buy a dog should be most diligent about.

Someone that has a usda license isn't necessarily a puppy mill. There are also people who breed their 'pets' over and over again to sell for profit and that's what they do full time.

Regardless of where you buy your companion, please please make sure to do a thorough research of that person or kennel. Someone with a usda license may have done so thinking it was a good thing and they were doing things by the book and reassuring buyers. They probably never imagined they would have people take that list and lump everyone on it as a bad person and puppy mill.

I've also attached a picture that pretty much told me what to think of Doug and Sharon. Does Doug look like a puppy mill guy to you in this pic which is on his website?

I believe these are the main things you look for. Some connection between the breeder and the dogs they are breeding.

* look for something personal about the breeder on the site
* look up inspection reports if they have a usda license
* Talk to the breeder on the phone
* Since you can't see the kennel, look up satellite pics of the area
* Ask the breeder for pics of mom and dad
* ask the breeder to upload videos of puppies in action
* ask for health info to be emailed or faxed
* ask for AKC info of family tree

All of the above will give you a good idea about who you are buying your longtime companion from. As I said I don't believe a usda license automatically give us a reason to say that that person or kennel is a puppy mill. It's just not fair to the people who got those licenses for the express purpose of doing the right thing and avoiding backlash like they are getting because of it. There are too many puppy mills in homes and unlicensed. Saying people on this list are bad might lead people to unlicensed breeder who have more chance of being puppy mills, eh?

Do your research and you will find a great loving dog to be by your side for many happy years... :exclaim:

uhm, no,tests that determine IF the dam & sire are even good examples of the breed as well as tests that help discover problems that would be passed along to offspring. A DNA test is of course just one of these tests.

I know you've had your pups awhile but PLEASE, do yourself a favor & take a look at our YT Library. There you'll find a virtual book of information on how to tell if a breeder is ethical as well as many articles about true health tests needed prior to breeding. Here's the link to get you started: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...e-breeder.html

Glad to see you using Yorkietalk & hope you'll stay around this time to learn from us!

Here are the major Health tests that a reputable breeder would do:


Brucellosis (STD)

BAT (Bile Acid Test)
(test for shunt but cannot indicate if sire/dam is a carrier of the disease)

OFA – Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

-Patella
-Legg-Calve Perthes
-Autoimmune Thyroiditis
-Hip Dysplasia

Additionally, although new, it's a great idea to ask a breeder if they've CHIC certified their dogs. If not certified with CHIC, ask why not.

The Canine Health Information Center, also known as CHIC, is a centralized canine health database jointly sponsored by the AKC/Canine Health Foundation (AKC/CHF) and the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA). The CHIC, working with participating parent clubs, provides a resource for breeders and owners of purebred dogs to research and maintain information on the health issues prevalent in specific breeds.

CERF – Canine Eye Registration Foundation

*ALL of this information came from the YT library & since it was apparent that all you really want to do is argue about how great these people are, I did the legwork for you. I'd still encourage every prospective parent to educate themselves on what makes a GOOD breeder a GOOD BREEDER.

You are right. I do want to defend these people and it was a little bit of a snarky remark you made saying that as if I am clueless which I'm not.

I think it is horribly unfair to lump everyone who has a usda license into a group and say every single one of them has a puppy mill mentality.

Even worse, I think that by doing that people will use that list as their 'puppy mill bible' and seek out someone not on the list and inadvertently purchase from an unlicensed breeder that may very well be the people you are trying to ward off.

I think it would be a perfect world if breeders did every one of those tests on the dogs they breed. If it's so important then it should be a requirement.

uhm, if educating people is what you call being snarky, by all means, please use the little triangle in the corner under your name on every post to report me. I don't see anywhere that I used the words clueless, those are your own words, not mine.

huh? why would i report you? You just said it was apparent that I wanted to argue in one of your posts to me (at the bottom) and I was referring to that as being snarky. I don't want to argue, I just think my opinion should be respected as I respect yours and never did I say anything about you personally as you did me.

Education is great and I do go through the library which is why I've been on here for so many years, however I don't post for just this reason.

I know this is an old thread and the poster I'm commenting on is probably long gone and can't defend his- or herself but I have to respond for current readers, now that I have seen this.

I take it none of these poor dogs' living quarters is in a real home, living as a beloved pet in the home by the fire at the end of the day, going on car trips, following their person to the bathroom every trip, playing fetch in the backyard, taking nice, long daily walks with their beloved person, sleeping right beside them at naps or night or at least in a little bed beside momma's, feted at birthdays like any family member and specially shopped for for Christmas gifts, lovingly wrapped and placed under the tree. Wonder how many of these dogs go on picnics with the family or watch TV with them, barking at loud when they see another dog or something that excites them and so eager to tell their people what they think about it. How many are actually really living? Or are they just existing.

These dogs don't have the joyful, free and fun care-free life of a beloved family member. They are property, obviously quartered most of their day in a cage or pen and spend long, lonely hours waiting between humans that deign to come out to clean, feed, work and "play" with them. Can you imagine the life these poor dogs live? Where is the enrichment in their lives, daily challenges and honest work learning new things every day, doing a little home agility course and getting/giving frequent daily kisses and snuggle sessions all during the day. When does the running, chasing squirrels, birds and cats from the yard and fetching balls and lying in the sun as mommie or daddy work in the yard come in? Are they ever made to feel proud of their accomplishments? Does anyone brag over them, tell them how wonderful they are every day? Have they ever gone to visit a family member at another house - which is like a vacation to a dog? Do they ever do anything a normal dog loves to do?

These dogs described in the above post sound just like prisoners who just live their lives in cages or kennels - cells of some kind - and all for the purpose to breed, get and undergo pregnancy, whelp and nurse/nurture puppies only to have them whisked away at an early age and then back to more of the same all over again - day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. It sounds so tragic and lonely and awful a life as to fill me with despair. It's happening all over our country. Good people probably in every other aspect of life making vast kennels of dogs live this life. But it's not a life - not really.

It is shocking and awful and no amount of justification can ever make a doglover who cares about the actual quality of life of breeding dogs come to think these breeders are so wonderful and kind to their dogs! And the breeders mentioned above are no different than probably thousands of others who keep and trade in dogs for money with very little thought as to all that it is costing the dogs in their kennels.

Is it fair to dogs living like that? Aren't we overbreeding to the point that the shelters and rescues are overcrowded to the point of refusing new entrants and summarily killing those thousands weekly that never get another chance? Is this the best we can do? Must we have so many breeders with kennels full of dogs living a loveless life of sameness, shut out and cuff off from the rest of the world, just basically waiting there in a cage until they breathe their last?

CHIC is a Requirement of all National Clubs from their breeder members. That is a mandatory health testing as set out by the Health Committee of the National Club. For my club, no club awards unless you CHIC your dogs.

You also have side-stepped the question of what exact health testing was done. A DNA sample is not a health test, it is a means of identification of each specific dog. Maybe at some point way in a future I won't be alive in a simple DNA test will show, some following conditions, PRA, cataracts, LP, HD, Leggs Perthes, CT, hyperuricosuria, allergies, AAI, Chiari, Elbow Dysplasia, Blueborn Puppy, Cardiomyopathy, Deafness, epilepsy, Von Willenbrands disease, and the list goes on!

No it's not fair. It's horrible that nobody can't stop this, but the reality is that they can't. People want what they want and they will buy the puppy that they want even with all of the rescues out there that need us. I have a purchased and a rescue yorkie. Their personalities are like night and day due to abuse of my sweet little girl Maggie mae. She has that survival street sense and Nicky has his naieve baby personality. I prefer a yorkie puppy that I can raise and train and love even if that seems selfish.

I think that overbreeding goes to ALL breeders, not just puppy mills. The only way to stop it will be to make it illegal for anyone to sell dogs. Of course then all of the lines would be extinct because who would give away their puppies and make sure they are spayed/neutered before they go home? They would only be able to make money off the shots and spay/neuter.

The only answer right now for those who want a purebred is to research the people we buy from. I may choose Doug and Sharon, but personally I trust them. I trust them much more than the lady who lives 2 miles away and sells chocolate and parti yorkies which although they are in her home, I feel it's an abuse in and of itself.

I'm getting a new puppy and Sharon has been going through her breeding records because we're trying to match Nicky's disposition. The dam is retired and we think since dad and grandad have that disposition she will look for calm mom. hmmmm, I still trust her. Yes this is a lifestyle for them as it is for hobby breeders and showdog breeders but I don't see you bashing them. They all sell dogs and if they truly cared they would only have you pay for the shots/spay-neuter/ and health tests right?

I never side-stepped anything. I told you all I knew he had was DNA testing. I didn't find out anything more from his original papers from when I got him. Why are you so up and in my face about this anyway?

Whoa -- that is a HUGE amount of dogs and has puppy mill written all over it. Pump 'em out, then it's off to Petland where there is no telling what will happen to them.

Some people will never see the truth because they don't want to or because they don't care but at least the info is there for those who truly care and want to buy from a reputable breeder.........

I am correcting mis-information or misleading. NO1. DNA testing is NOT a health test, but a means of proving parentage.

So you are buying from a breeder who does not health test their dogs. WEll I don't make my business from breeding dogs, it is my love and my passion. Far from making money at dog breeding, I make money by working, and being lucky enough to have made some smart investments in my younger years, between both it fuels my passion for my breeds, and allows me to do the most correct breeding decision, every single time!

I breed to at least maintain the breed standard, and my goal is to improve the breed standard.

Posting a picture of man with dogs all around him, and asking us if this looks like a pet miller? Please that is so inane. A picture of man, with ill groomed dogs around him is supposed to sway me into believing he is not a puppy mill?

Take a look at some of my posts, some of my videos of how my breeding dogs live their life, both on and off the ring.

And then I read this breeder has 100 dogs on his site? Oh my. No way he is doing the correct socializing, training, and vetting with only one other person to help.

Each dog needs a minimum of 30 minutes of exercise a day, that is not loving on some-ones lap, but walking, running, fetching, swimming, rally-o or other very active activities. And yes they need that loving too, but not that just alone.

Dogs are not meant to live in crates 22 hours a day!. They are meant to be part of household. Familiarized from puppyhood with the sounds of a home. Telephone ringing, vaccum going, washing and drying machines, CO2 going off, fans on the stove, or in the room. Television, stereo.

The very loverly smells of the oven and the fridge. Laughter, touch, different surfaces. The doorbell ringing. Cars going and going.

Being bathed, having nails clipped, the blow-dryer.

Just to keep it clear they aren't talking about the people I'm talking about.

I only voiced my opinion when I saw someone say if they have a usda license then you shouldn't get a dog from this couple which I disagreed with since I have personal knowledge of Doug and Sharon Andrew.

Things just seemed to blow up for some reason from there..

sounds about right. I can see that this forum doesn't seem to have any sense of reality. I thought you did your research? You mis-informed about the number of animals when you read only part of the posts.

People are going to go online and buy yorkies now and until they somehow find a way to shut everything down and not allow people to sell dogs at all which is really how it should be don't you think?

And it is absolutely ridiculous that I have been attacked time and again for voicing an opinion that I have even though I totally agree that nobody should purchase from a shady source. I think maybe some of you should take a look at yourselves before you start throwing stones and saying some people just won't see the truth.

This is exactly why I have never posted. Everybody has to put their two cents worth in and try to jam their opinion down your throat instead of respecting it.

I think we could slow overbreeding if we only bought from highly reputable and respected savvy breeders who have a long history of breeding Yorkies only for improvement of the breed and not just size or looks - such as a large head or big eyes, shortened muzzle. And those that allow their breeding males and females to live the life of beloved pets and not locked away in kennels most of the day for years or life.

If buyers of puppies and older dogs would confine their purchases of purebred Yorkies to only the best of breeders, it could put a damper on the business of puppymillers, BYB'ers and show breeders that breed only for the size/look of the dog.

Rescues occasionally have Yorkie puppies, too, for anyone wanting just Yorkie puppies and buying from a rescue doesn't fund a bad breeder.

I sure hope that YT and sites like ours will help to put irresponsible breeders -who treat dogs like property only and not loved pets and/or frivolously breed almost any two dogs together irrespective of health problems or without even knowing the lines or ancestry of their breeding dogs' or any medical conditions that could be passed along; or the show breeder who breeds not to improve the breed but mainly for looks/size - completely out of business. But failing that, at least maybe we can cut into their trade enough that they will slow their operation down significantly. I'm sick to death of seeing post after post on YT about poor, sick little Yorkies, often with inherited congenital conditions making the dog utterly miserable and often putting its life in danger.

I agree with everything you say. Most I've seen on yorkie rescue are older with debilitating diseases or are best in a one pet home. breaks my heart to see them.

Now talking about breeders; if only the reputable and savvy breeders wouldn't charge $2000 or more for their puppies people wouldn't be looking at less reputable places. They need to have a place that is reputable and has affordable prices. That is not easy to find and we all know that.

What I do know is that my dog is extremely healthy, I like the breeders, and I love his looks, demeanor so that is my reason for going back to where I purchased him.

The people on this board know what they are talking about and have done the research as well as have experienced bad breeders and been there to know what equals a bad breeder. Also just because people continue to do bad things doesn't make it ok. We here on this board love yorkies and are tired of puppy mills and back yard breeders killing our breed and producing sick pup's where the pups have to suffer. I am afraid you have you blinders on and that makes me very sad.

Most reputable and show breeders do not make there money back even when selling there puppies between $1,000-$2,000. It takes a lot of work to breed right and it costs a lot of money. Of course when you don't do it right you can charge less for the pups.

Well if you have researched it here, I will have told what the health costs are and other major requirements to a show breeder, to breed healthy pups.

The roughly break even cost for a puppy with all the health tests behind them, with CH sired dogs, is at a minimum $1700 and let us now add the whelping and rearing of pups in you get very close to $2000.

Aghast are you. Please trust me that is a very accurate cost. In my previous life I was a CGA,

Most of my dear friends who are breeders and do all the right things have no bloody idea of an average puppy cost. They just don't think that way. You see they don't breed to make money but for the love of their breed.

We are crazy in some ways. We will travel a 1000 miles to get our dogs evaluated by a reputed temperament specialist. Or judged by a well respected breed expert judge. CH earned from those judges are sought.

We will go another 1000 miles to find the very best ortho surgeon to operate on one of our puppies or dogs.

There is no substitute for what is done right and that costs.

I do not believe every one should be able to afford a well bred pup. Sorry but the actual costs involved even I just cover my own costs, says I price for a Yorkie at $1800. This is from a GCH champion and any female CH, they will have had all the health tests done prox $500 per dog. The cost to champion a dog at least for 2 3000. The cost to buy the dogs? At least $5000

So what do you think I should sell a dog for?

Your statement is irrational. Anyone who has kennel upon kennel of BREEDING DOGS out back in a SHED/GARAGE/KENNEL call it what you want its a dang prison...these dogs are being forced to live in conditions and breed that they do not want to.

The GREEDER/PUPPYMILLER who is topic of this thread is one of the worst of the worst and the fact that her child came on here to defend them only shows that they not only are senseless greeders but that they taught their children the same and they are probably perpetuating the industry...

The child quotes how her parents/dad who had to go out day in and day out to clean the kennels, feed the animals etc...etc...was ridiculous...Your damn right they better be cleaning them, feeding them and watering them....but her parents do not have honest jobs they have chosen to abuse animals by caging them and forcing them to live in CAGES in a prison in the backyard...her parents are making money off the backs of these dogs who have no choice in the matter...they are not farmers and they are not making an honest living...they are disgusting, repugnant breeders who should go and get real jobs and stop using animals to make money....like many, many, many human beings do..they are shameless, shameful greeders.

You may defend them but that shows me that sadly YOU don't know any better either....very very disheartening....

Gemy/Gail posted the greatest post about what actual costs reputable, respected breeders have to try to cover and why their dogs are more expensive than other breeders. I wish I could find it. Maybe she will post it here.

With the studying they have to do to try to understand genetics, paying for books, audiotapes and seminars to attend about genetics, breeding sciences, medical care, etc., paying for their breeder dogs, paying for the health testing that needs to be done to r/o if either male or female has a medical problem that could be passed along, researching and paying for whatever material they have to have to ensure they know of the health of other dogs in the lines they are developing, all needed supplies, vet bills(!) for the breeding dogs and the puppies and all of the medications(!) and supplements, special food and extra's, $2,000.00 seems really fair and probably doesn't half cover their time and brain drain, angst and none of the work.

So, if we really want to help save the Yorkshire Terrier breed, we had better put our own money where our mouth is essentially as lovers of this breed and either get a rescue Yorkie or save until we can afford a puppy from a truly excellent breeder. Until we do begin to buy, we are very likely patently supporting the kind of breeder that is helping make this a breed rife with health problems. $2k seems like so much $ for a dog but when you consider the unbelievable costs of having dogs and buying supplies, medications and vet bills, getting expensive pre-breeding tests, undergoing continuing breeding and dog-care education and staying up to the moment on that - I think it is quite reasonable. Probably they don't ever actually make a cent in true profit.

Personally speaking, I'd rather buy from a rescue or shelter or wait to get a dog rather than support a breeder who is not health-testing or always studying how to pair breeding dogs to improve the breed. It seems that too many breeders just stick any two dogs together to breed them or know of their problems but want a particular "look", irrespective of health, and we have what we have now - a breed with a whole lot of medical problems and shelters brimming with unwanted, cast off dogs. If one looks enough, there are dogs in rescue and even shelters that are not ill, very old or lame. We've many owners of rescue dogs here on YorkieTalk.

As a country of doglovers, we're mostly letting our dogs down, not serving them that well at all if we keep supporting irresponsible breeders so we can afford a cheaper dog rather than saving up and waiting to buy from highly responsible breeders, especially when shelters, rescues are over-full.

And we're flat overbreeding/overbuying dogs in this country and for the most part, doing it based mostly on monetary and self-serving reasons and have for years now. I hope we can one by one change that.

I know you understand what you are talking about which is why I use the boards for information. I feel just as strongly as you do about bad breeders and if you think i don't or that I love yorkies any less than you do then you are wrong..

All I have ever done is defend one particular breeder and you all have jumped down my throat for it. I did my research and I like these people.

Say or think what you will, but give me the respect of allowing me to form my own opinions about specific people without trying to MAKE me see things your way. It's called 'we will agree to disagree' and I would appreciate it if we could all just drop it on this particular issue.

I'll end my part of this discussion on a happy note. With a photo of my Nicky and Maggie. Keep on with the bad breeder info though and I'm sure it will help people.

I knew there was a reason I didn't post. Thank you all for reminding me. It's like being attacked by a gang!

sorry Nicky is laying in grass and Maggie Mae has her little red bow. You can see why I want another pup from Nicky's line looking at how gorgeous he is. There are good genes in in his line. And I am waiting because the dam has retired and she's looking through her records for a dog that will enhance the demeanor of the sires which is similar to Nicky's anyway.

Don't get mad, please stay, share stories, your point of view, teach and learn and pass along what you know and learn in life. I haven't read all of the posts but I don't think you've been truly attacked - called names or treated mean but if so, please just report those posts that flout the rules to the Admin. and stay around and work it all out, become a voice for dogs and enjoy the site.

Really nice looking babies! They are both so sweet. Can't blame you for loving those two sweeties!!!!

I hope that if you buy from their breeder you are more interested in the health of your next dog than just its looks. Looks are important and most people don't want a down-faced dog or one with a too-small head for its body but if the breeder is always working to improve the breed to achieve the AKC standard, then the good looks of the dog will be there in most cases. Just be certain that your breeder knows the breeding pair have been fully health-tested for all of the things they could pass along from their respective heritages and not just a once-over by the vet exam feeling for LP and hernias, etc., or a DNA test. And be certain that your breeder knows that at least fairly-recent ancestors of the breeding pair were free of hereditary diseases and conditions. And lastly, be certain that the breeder you use doesn't treat the dogs as property but beloved pets, living the good life of a dog and all that that implies. That will help ensure that you are dealing with a reputable breeder who is trying to better the breed but also giving their breeding dogs the full life of a loved dog and is not just a breeding machine to them.

Thank you for the nice post. Actually Sharon is looking through her breeding records and we probably won't have anything for at least 7 months because we are looking for the healthiest and calmest female for breeding. I didn't realize how much work she had to do but since Nicky has always been really healthy, I feel optimistic in this.

For everyone else, the usda and AKC use this specific kennel and photos of their operation as a model to help close the gap between breeder and show dog owners who breed. They even have a bedroom set up in the nursery with the pregnant dogs and puppies where they sleep and spend most of their time.. It's their lifestyle and it makes them feel blessed. I'm all good with that!