Originally Posted by BakersDozen (Post 1914472)

It is true that breeders have a responsibility. However, when a new person comes on needing help, the simple fact is that many of them do not have the knowledge to realize the responsibility that comes with breeding. Not because they are stupid or lazy or deliberate, but because the average person (including the vets they get their instruction from) does not know it. The knowledge held by most of those on YT is not that of the average person. And when they come on here for an answer to a simple question, they instead get a host of responses about how they should not be breeding. This is not helpful, and in fact discourages them from asking anything. So the help they might have received on whelping their litter, etc.....they do not get. I cannot see how this is in the best interest of the dog.

By no means am I saying that the ethics of breeding should never be mentioned. It definitely should, otherwise these people will never be educated. However, there is a polite way of doing it that is rarely seen here.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people having concern for the dogs and breed, I have never seen anyone complain about someone showing concern. And there are indeed a great many posts which do not name names or refer to anyone individually. However, I do see a lot of scenarios like this (just a generic one here, I don't want to use anything actual):

Breeder--I choose not to bile acid test my puppies, because I don't consider the test to be accurate at such a young age.

Poster--In my personal opinion, any reputable breeder would bile acid test their puppies.

While it is true the poster is just stating their opinion, in the context it is no different than saying the breeder is not reputable. No wonder it is considered rude! How much nicer it would be to simply state their differing opinion on the testing, acknowledge that others may have a different opinion, and go on about their merry way. The poster has then educated, but in a respectful way.

And, in this spirit, I will acknowledge that others may have differing opinions. :) One last thought...if a person finds that they are often interpreted as being rude, regardless of their intention, it would be the humble and courteous thing to examine their posts closely. One or two people can easily be wrong, but if a person is consistently viewed as rude by several people....could be they have a point.

Originally Posted by simonandhallie (Post 1914116)

Nobody here at YT is trying to silence anyone but when breeders (regardless of size) are afraid to post out of fear of being attacked, it poses a problem.

The breeding section is a place to learn, improve, grow, laugh, cry, and share experiences. It should not be a place to be judged or attacked.

I don't know how many times I can say this but if you have nothing nice to say to someone don't say it. It's so very simple. If you have advice that will help someone please share it. If you have made mistakes, please share those so people can learn from it. We learn from experiences and if you aren't a breeder, frankly, you don't have any. If you are a breeder please share with everyone.

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom (Post 1914467)

Kim
We learn from experiences and if you aren't a breeder, frankly, you don't have any. If you are a breeder please share with everyone.

I forgot to address the above sentence in your post but you are so right and I agree 100 percent. The breeder forum should be a place where people having problems can come and ask the breeders who have experience for help. A closed forum would be a great idea.

Originally Posted by BakersDozen (Post 1914472)

It is true that breeders have a responsibility. However, when a new person comes on needing help, the simple fact is that many of them do not have the knowledge to realize the responsibility that comes with breeding. Not because they are stupid or lazy or deliberate, but because the average person (including the vets they get their instruction from) does not know it. The knowledge held by most of those on YT is not that of the average person. And when they come on here for an answer to a simple question, they instead get a host of responses about how they should not be breeding. This is not helpful, and in fact discourages them from asking anything. So the help they might have received on whelping their litter, etc.....they do not get. I cannot see how this is in the best interest of the dog.

By no means am I saying that the ethics of breeding should never be mentioned. It definitely should, otherwise these people will never be educated. However, there is a polite way of doing it that is rarely seen here.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people having concern for the dogs and breed, I have never seen anyone complain about someone showing concern. And there are indeed a great many posts which do not name names or refer to anyone individually. However, I do see a lot of scenarios like this (just a generic one here, I don't want to use anything actual):

Breeder--I choose not to bile acid test my puppies, because I don't consider the test to be accurate at such a young age.

Poster--In my personal opinion, any reputable breeder would bile acid test their puppies.

While it is true the poster is just stating their opinion, in the context it is no different than saying the breeder is not reputable. No wonder it is considered rude! How much nicer it would be to simply state their differing opinion on the testing, acknowledge that others may have a different opinion, and go on about their merry way. The poster has then educated, but in a respectful way.

And, in this spirit, I will acknowledge that others may have differing opinions. :) One last thought...if a person finds that they are often interpreted as being rude, regardless of their intention, it would be the humble and courteous thing to examine their posts closely. One or two people can easily be wrong, but if a person is consistently viewed as rude by several people....could be they have a point.

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 1914497)

In my opinion the difference between a BYB and a reputable breeder is education, responsibility, and how you handle situations when things go wrong. Lack of education is no excuse, it's too easy to buy a few good books and look up info on the internet. The reason so many come on here with no education before breeding their dog is because they simply didn't care enough or feel the need to educate themselves before they bred. I don't get this since I'll pick up a cookbook before attempting to make something new in the kitchen. How can you not at least learn something about what you're attempting when it has to do with life and death. You don't have to show a dog to get education, you just have to care enough to make the effort. If you're going to do something do it to the highest standard that you can.

Originally Posted by mypreciouspups (Post 1914477)

Very well said michele....:thumbup:

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 1914497)

In my opinion the difference between a BYB and a reputable breeder is education, responsibility, and how you handle situations when things go wrong. Lack of education is no excuse, it's too easy to buy a few good books and look up info on the internet. The reason so many come on here with no education before breeding their dog is because they simply didn't care enough or feel the need to educate themselves before they bred. I don't get this since I'll pick up a cookbook before attempting to make something new in the kitchen. How can you not at least learn something about what you're attempting when it has to do with life and death. You don't have to show a dog to get education, you just have to care enough to make the effort. If you're going to do something do it to the highest standard that you can.

Originally Posted by EmrldShdwQueen (Post 1914487)

I can clearly see both sides of the story. It kills me that there are people putting their dogs lives in jeopardy just because they wanted to make a few extra bucks. And I do believe that something should be said to them, and don't feel that they should be considered a "reputable breeder."

BUT on the other hand, there are some of us who don't show their dogs and provide pets to loving homes, and I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just like everyone else has said, you can come to my house or talk to people who have, and see how spoiled rotten my dogs are. I don't raise my dogs in a kennel outside, they are all inside and live EXCELLENT lives, and I stand behind that. My puppies are healthy and all my girls are within standard size (5-7 lbs) if they're going to be bred. I did extensive research beforehand, and I have a mentor who has been doing this a long time. What's so wrong with that? Yet I still get ugly emails and PMs, and hear all the time that "so and so said this about you" and BLAH BLAH BLAH and I am TOTALLY sick of it. It seems like ANYONE who posts that doesn't show is being talked about in a negative way. And I DO NOT agree that all reputable breeders show their dogs. Yes, there is a lot of watering down that has been done to this breed, I agree. I would never breed a 10 lb (or a 2 lb) girl, and I would never breed a dog that doesn't look like a yorkie. Debbi is a wonderful person, and she truly cares about her dogs, just like me. It's sad that she and many others who do care are being cast out and talked about. That shouldn't be the case.

Originally Posted by chattiesmom (Post 1914499)

Very well stated! Thank you for this fantastic post!

Originally Posted by chachi (Post 1914509)

Good post I agree. If there werent good hobby breeders out there the vast majority of us wouldnt have yorkies. I respect the show breeders but showing is not for everyone.

Originally Posted by EmrldShdwQueen (Post 1914487)

I can clearly see both sides of the story. It kills me that there are people putting their dogs lives in jeopardy just because they wanted to make a few extra bucks. And I do believe that something should be said to them, and don't feel that they should be considered a "reputable breeder."

BUT on the other hand, there are some of us who don't show their dogs and provide pets to loving homes, and I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just like everyone else has said, you can come to my house or talk to people who have, and see how spoiled rotten my dogs are. I don't raise my dogs in a kennel outside, they are all inside and live EXCELLENT lives, and I stand behind that. My puppies are healthy and all my girls are within standard size (5-7 lbs) if they're going to be bred. I did extensive research beforehand, and I have a mentor who has been doing this a long time. What's so wrong with that? Yet I still get ugly emails and PMs, and hear all the time that "so and so said this about you" and BLAH BLAH BLAH and I am TOTALLY sick of it. It seems like ANYONE who posts that doesn't show is being talked about in a negative way. And I DO NOT agree that all reputable breeders show their dogs. Yes, there is a lot of watering down that has been done to this breed, I agree. I would never breed a 10 lb (or a 2 lb) girl, and I would never breed a dog that doesn't look like a yorkie. Debbi is a wonderful person, and she truly cares about her dogs, just like me. It's sad that she and many others who do care are being cast out and talked about. That shouldn't be the case.

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom (Post 1914467)

Kim
We learn from experiences and if you aren't a breeder, frankly, you don't have any. If you are a breeder please share with everyone.

I forgot to address the above sentence in your post but you are so right and I agree 100 percent. The breeder forum should be a place where people having problems can come and ask the breeders who have experience for help. A closed forum would be a great idea.

Originally Posted by EmrldShdwQueen (Post 1914487)

I can clearly see both sides of the story. It kills me that there are people putting their dogs lives in jeopardy just because they wanted to make a few extra bucks. And I do believe that something should be said to them, and don't feel that they should be considered a "reputable breeder."

BUT on the other hand, there are some of us who don't show their dogs and provide pets to loving homes, and I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just like everyone else has said, you can come to my house or talk to people who have, and see how spoiled rotten my dogs are. I don't raise my dogs in a kennel outside, they are all inside and live EXCELLENT lives, and I stand behind that. My puppies are healthy and all my girls are within standard size (5-7 lbs) if they're going to be bred. I did extensive research beforehand, and I have a mentor who has been doing this a long time. What's so wrong with that? Yet I still get ugly emails and PMs, and hear all the time that "so and so said this about you" and BLAH BLAH BLAH and I am TOTALLY sick of it. It seems like ANYONE who posts that doesn't show is being talked about in a negative way. And I DO NOT agree that all reputable breeders show their dogs. Yes, there is a lot of watering down that has been done to this breed, I agree. I would never breed a 10 lb (or a 2 lb) girl, and I would never breed a dog that doesn't look like a yorkie. Debbi is a wonderful person, and she truly cares about her dogs, just like me. It's sad that she and many others who do care are being cast out and talked about. That shouldn't be the case.

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy (Post 1914522)

And what criteria would there be to make a closed forum? How do you truly know what experience a person has or hasn't had? We only know a person by what they choose to post on this forum. Some people claim to have more experience than they have actually had, and other may actually have more experience than they appear to have. Assumptions should not be made as we don't truly know a person based soley on what they have chosen to post or not post.

Second, a closed forum will only hinder breeders. Many people that are knowledgeable about the breed but choose to not currently breed won't be able to give any valuable information they do have. I think it is close-minded to assume that only those actively breeding have any knowledge when it comes to this breed or breeding in general. Also, those who are not currently breeding but trying to learn would be shut off from information in which to learn from. By selecting who can and can't post, you are basically creating a group of close-minded individuals who do not want to hear anything differering from their opinions and experience. All experiences and opinions should be welcome, read, and considered. If someone is open-minded, I think they will see that there is potential to learn from everyone.

Originally Posted by 011011 (Post 1914532)

:thumbup::thumbup::

Originally Posted by chattiesmom (Post 1914186)

I cannot imagine that someone would actually send a nasty pm to someone that they disagreed with or to use an email address to start a slam attack. You have got to be kidding.... if that is going on, it reminds me of a movie I saw recently called "Mean Girls".

NanaD - please keep up the encouragement - it would be tragic to lose members over heated debates.:thumbdown:(

Originally Posted by chattiesmom (Post 1914572)

I : "I don't want flying lessons from someone who has never piloted a plane. When I am whelping a litter, I don't need advice from someone who has never done it." but it is so very true. You can have all the "book learning" and opinions necessary to START learning to become a breeder, but until you have lived with a pegnant bitch, gone through a labor and held a wet newborn in your hands, you just can't understand all that is involved.

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy (Post 1914522)

And what criteria would there be to make a closed forum? How do you truly know what experience a person has or hasn't had? We only know a person by what they choose to post on this forum. Some people claim to have more experience than they have actually had, and other may actually have more experience than they appear to have. Assumptions should not be made as we don't truly know a person based soley on what they have chosen to post or not post.

Second, a closed forum will only hinder breeders. Many people that are knowledgeable about the breed but choose to not currently breed won't be able to give any valuable information they do have. I think it is close-minded to assume that only those actively breeding have any knowledge when it comes to this breed or breeding in general. Also, those who are not currently breeding but trying to learn would be shut off from information in which to learn from. By selecting who can and can't post, you are basically creating a group of close-minded individuals who do not want to hear anything differering from their opinions and experience. All experiences and opinions should be welcome, read, and considered. If someone is open-minded, I think they will see that there is potential to learn from everyone.

Originally Posted by 011011 (Post 1914569)

The OP wanted to know about health screening before breeding. I sure didn't see any experienced current breeders jumping up to answer her questions. I may not be breeding my dogs, but I do know what health screening is available so I offered what I knew. You can't tell me that the information I posted wasn't potentially helpful to someone breeding. I just think this proves that "non-breeders" can be of use on this forum

Originally Posted by chattiesmom (Post 1914572)

I would not want to see a closed forum. What I would like to see is a Breeding Forum that follows the guidelines set forth by YorkieTalk. If members would simply follow the posting rules they would be polite in their responses and if that was not possible they would refrain from posting.

I don't know who originally posted this: "I don't want flying lessons from someone who has never piloted a plane. When I am whelping a litter, I don't need advice from someone who has never done it." but it is so very true. You can have all the "book learning" and opinions necessary to START learning to become a breeder, but until you have lived with a pegnant bitch, gone through a labor and held a wet newborn in your hands, you just can't understand all that is involved.

Originally Posted by Jody Renfroe (Post 1914457)

NanaD, I think I know who you are, and you are a wonderful, caring person. Please don't let the negative posts get to you. It's just not worth your getting upset over. Some of the negative posters need to step back and take a good long look at themselves and their hearts. JMO

Originally Posted by chattiesmom (Post 1914572)

I would not want to see a closed forum. What I would like to see is a Breeding Forum that follows the guidelines set forth by YorkieTalk. If members would simply follow the posting rules they would be polite in their responses and if that was not possible they would refrain from posting.
I don't know who originally posted this: "I don't want flying lessons from someone who has never piloted a plane. When I am whelping a litter, I don't need advice from someone who has never done it." but it is so very true. You can have all the "book learning" and opinions necessary to START learning to become a breeder, but until you have lived with a pegnant bitch, gone through a labor and held a wet newborn in your hands, you just can't understand all that is involved.

Originally Posted by MyFairLacy (Post 1914579)

Again, I dont see anyone without experience giving advice on whelping litters. I believe the real issue here is that people just don't want to see differing opinions on the threads that discuss breeding in general. It's close-minded. There is nothing wrong with discussions or debates if people aren't being rude or personally attacking a member. Life is full of people with different experiences and opinions...you can't expect for everyone to feel exactly the same about an issue on forum. If you don't like somone's opinion then ignore it