The Breeding Debate
 

I think i am stepping on muddy waters, but I've been thinking...

Shouldn't the main goal of breeding be to PERFECT THE BREED and ONLY to PERFECT THE BREED? I know, I know...there will always be people out there that will breed to make an easy buck, but what about those claiming to be "reputable breeders." Reputable breeders should ONLY breed a dog that is the PERFECT representation of the breed, right? Too many times I see and talk to breeders who are wonderful people and would love nothing more than to bring a puppy and a new family together....but , the dogs they have chosen to breed fall short of the standards set by AKC, CKC, YTCA etc.

Two amazing representations of the breed may produce a pup "out of the standard"...well understood. I just believe a "reputable breeder" should have the ability to decide which dam and sire is appropriate to breed.

Am I alone?

No, you're not alone. I can get very worked up about breeding. It is very frustrating seeing so many yorkies bred out of standard and with so many health issues. I've got a pretty narrow view of what a reputable breeder is. Yorkies are being so overbred now that many don't even look like a yorkie anymore... Yorkies are everywhere and puppymills & bybs are cranking them out right and left. It's sad :( The biggest concern I have are the congenital health problems facing this breed. Just look at our sick forums here and you'll see so many YT babies suffering from Liver shunt (yorkies are 35 times more likely to have LS than all other breeds combined!), Luxating Patella (my baby has this), collapsed trachea, Heart defects, Renal Disease, Diabetes, and other serious issues. I truly wish breeders would health screen their dogs the best they can before breeding to significantly lower the risk of health problems...it may not eliminate health issues completely, but it would help a LOT. I just spent most of my day yesterday with a YT member whose baby was born with and recently diagnosed with Occipital Axial Subluxation. He had surgery for it yesterday and thank God made it through with flying colors! So many "breeders" just don't care...they're doing it for "fun", producing "pets only", doing it to make money, or just don't know any better... And unfortunately there are so many people uneducated to what is and isn't a reputable breeder...they go to petstores and bybs..and the cycle just continues... I just wish more people would educate themselves and really think before they decide to breed their dogs together. There is so much involved...time, money, and a vast amount of knowledge to breed the right way...and most people aren't cut out for it.

ditto. My Nikki paid with her life because of a greedy byb!

In a perfect world, yes! I live out in the country and there are a lot of back yard breeders. Their goal is the income. I'm talking the kind of people who never take an animal to the vet and breed them every heat. While they sell their puppies left and right to who ever will come and buy them.

I knew a breeder who bred siamese cats and after the area around her had been saturated with them, if she had a litter they ended up at the pound. At first she was making $100 a kitten then after a few years whatever someone would give her and then no one wanted them anymore. It made me so mad!!!

When people said to me "Why don't you just have Lola have puppies so that you don't have to buy any more?" they were being honest. They didn't know that it takes a good breeder who knows what they're doing and that there are risks. To people out here, pets are disposable income. :(

no you are not alone but this same subject is brought up nearly every day and all it accomplishes is hurt feelings and arguements.

I have seen a couple of posts about breeding and byb's but nothing this specific... I just hope that we all (yt'ers) think about this when choosing a breeder. Why keep someone in business that is basically doing bad for the breed?

Thanks for your comments :)

I agree with you completely, however when there is a desire for a certain type of dog there will always be someone out there to meet that need. Extra tiny, really light colored, really dark, we could go on and on about the different traits some people desire that are not written into the standard. For instance the person I got my baby from loves yorkies so much and is a really great person she obviously put out alot of money and care into her dogs and making sure they had the best life possible. This being said she breeds dogs with ideal structure, health, temperament, but she likes them darker in color and that means soft coats and incorrect colors. She pick the dogs specifically to get this look.

I love Copper and love his dark color but since I have learned so much from yorkie talk, I am choosing a breeder the second time around that only breeds to perfect the Yorkshire Terrier breed, I think that is all I can really do,
Support what you feel is right and stand up for what you feel matters. If you only support people doing this.And educate new owners and potential owners as to why it is important then hopefully the outcome will be more yorkies that look and act like they should. If more people only wanted a yorkie that meets standard, more breeders would breed only to AKC standard, they have to fill the needs of the purchaser.

Let me start off by saying, I'm not a breeder, and I don't want to get anything started. But....

What you think is perfect would be different then what I think is perfect, and the next person thinks ect.

IMO, On the standards for the breed, it really only list being under 7 lbs. usually 3-7lbs. There is no height or length standards. Body compact?? head small ect. but no exact measurents other then weight. This could mean a tall skinny dog or a short fatter one. Leaving beauty in the eye of the beholder.

I think dogs that do have any kind of health problems should be excluded from breeding. But the standards aren't really that specific, at least not on a Yorkie. I haven't checked out any other breed standards.

As far as health issues go, sometimes I don't think the breeder can tell until after they have had a litter of puppies, what quality they will be.
Like you said, Just because you put two champion bloodlines together doesn't mean you will automatically get a champion dog. Or one that will have no health issues at all.

But where on any registery can you find out the health of your dogs parents, grandparents, ect. You can't even find out how long they lived. I think, all that should be listed on the registries. How old the Dam and Sire was when they bred, any health issues, ect. Maybe the standards should be raised within the registries? a photo also of the dogs parents, grandparents. But you still are relying on peoples honesty.

It is funny how, almost everyone gets all worked up when you talk about breeding dogs. Doesn't matter if it is a forum board or people you meet. I find Everyone has their own opinion that's part of the human race.

I recently went to a YT meetup. There were around 10-14 Yorkies that were there, and I have to say not one of them looked the same, not hair, height, coloring, ect. But we all loved our Yorkies.

I know there are some people out there to make a quick buck, but I think most people breed because of the love of their breed.

So my question is: What is the perfect representation of the Yorkie? If the registrations don't really explain measurements, other than under 7 pounds.
The rest of the standards are really quite broad in my opionion.

Beauty shouldn't be left to the eye of the beholder when it comes to a specific breed. That is the whole purpose of dog shows, so each breed can be judged against the breed standard by a person qualified to judge them.

The average pet owner does not have the expertise to apply the breed standard to their dog. That's why potential breeders should have their dogs judged in the show ring so they help preserve the particular look of a breed.

Actually there is a standard for the perfect yorkie and it is set by the YTCA. The standard may seem broad, but those that are very knowledgeable of the breed know what they are looking for. If yorkies were all bred for the right reasons, we'd have a lot more consistency in the way yorkies look. Unfortunately yorkies are being so overbred and most don't even look like a yorkie anymore.

I have a friend who raises bulldogs and this is the only breed she has. She will tell you strait up she is doing it for the money. Ill be honest its hard for me to believe that the ONLY reason that some people breed is to better the breed. I think people want to make money at the same time. I am not trying to step on anyones toes here Im just being honest. You cannot tell me that people keep breeding and breeding and never make a dime. I think that you can be breeding for standard and good quality and also want to make money to. Maybe I am totally in the dark about this. Have I gathered my info wrong? I am not saying this to make anyone mad. I am just curious.

I am no breeder and I am just now becoming knowledgeable on the topic but as a newly informed person it is hard to find even what I would consider a good breeder. I live in Michigan and have looked and many AKC breeders on the web and they all sell mixes like lily and also have akc pets but they will have 4,5,6 different breeds and 3,4 moms from each with a million litters. I am thinking of adding to my family and am so scared to buy a pup because I think it is hard to find someone to trust.

Talk to reputable show breeders...I promise you they don't make much money, if any at all. In fact, some of them probably spend more money than they make. Breeding is expensive. Buying a quality female and male is very expensive, doing all the necessary health screening is very expensive, showing fees are very expensive, vet care & possiblity of c-sections. If breeders are breeding for the right reasons and are reputable breeders, they don't make enough money for that to be the reason they stay in it. Sure, it's easy to make money if you just buy two dogs, do no health testing, don't show, and then breed them together.... but those that do it the right way don't make money.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I can tell you right now that breeders make next to NOTHING for what they put into it. I don't even want to THINK about how much I'm in the hole at this point when it comes to breeding. I'm just starting out, but I guarantee you that it will take me several years to even just get back what I put into them, let alone make a profit. That is NOT why I do this....if it were for the money I would have quite a looonnnnggg time ago. :rolleyes:

Well I would say more people are in it to make money than not.

and those are exactly the type of breeders people need to stay away from. Those are not good breeders

So if you went to a breeder and you thought that their pet they were SELLING (keyword here) were in good health, had a guarantee, the parents had all the testing that needed to be done, puppies were vet checked and utd on shots and the only thing you could find wrong is if they said they were in it to make money, then you would walk away. Please understand I am not trying to pick a fight. I am honestly learning from every post. Tell me that people that sell their pets from 1000.00 up to 3000.00 are not making $$$. Maybe its cause Im from the south or maybe cause Im blonde or a combo of both lol who knows ,but that just does not add up.

:thumbup: I agree, if they weren't, they wouldn't be charging the outrageous prices! I look at all the ones that have bought their dogs from"reputable breeders" too, and yet their dog has LP..??

If a breeder told me they were in it to make money, of course I would walk away. Nothing is worse than people that use dogs and cats to make money..it discusts me. Dogs and cats are not money-making machines - they are companion animals and meant to be treated better than that. I will only buy from someone who breeds because they continue to try and improve the breed, tries to breed the best Yorkie possible, tries to produce only healthy dogs, and does it because they love the breed. Anyone who breeds to make money is a backyard breeder or puppymill :thumbdown

You will see all kinds of prices for yorkies. You'll see backyard breeders selling them for low prices and high prices. You'll see reputable breeders selling them for low prices and high prices. You'll see reputable SHOW breeders selling for low prices and high prices. I would MUCH rather pay a high price from a reputable breeder than a bad one.

My next puppy will come from a reputable show breeder....from a breeder that breeds for the right reasons. I personally want a breeder who cares about her dogs, raises them in her home, shows her dogs (showing is important to me personally), health screens ALL dogs for all common defects prior to breeding, only breeds healthy dogs that meet the standard, doesn't sell puppies until they are at least 12 weeks old, is careful to screen potential homes, sells pets on spay/neuter contract with limited registration, etc.

So again to answer your original question - there is no way I would support someone who breeds so they can make money. And again I promise you most reputable breeders don't make much money from breeding, if any at all.

like who? There are a lot of people that might consider their breeders reputable when in fact they are not. I'm not saying reputable breeders that health screen aren't ever going to a get a puppy with a health problem...sometimes it just happens, but the chances are much lower than if you went and bought a dog from someone who doesn't health screen. Dogs are not cheap...you can't expect to buy a well-bred dog for $100 (although I'm not saying you'll never find one). Breeding costs a lot of money - I've seen it broken down somewhere on here so far as costs and it was a LOT to breed a litter.

money
 

Many long time fanciers I know, have sunk an enormous amount of money into building on to their home for the ease and comfort of breeding/showing/grooming etc...my first addition was $12,000 (many years ago) updated 5 yrs later at $5000 or $6000, then as I recall my last chunk was $8000 for new AC/heat/water heater and HI-Tech flooring..oh, I forgot I had two concrete patios poured and fenced with $1000 worth of custom made PVC, forgot how much the patio's cost...WAIT.. the new grooming sink and separate outdoor drain system...we couldn't hook into the city sewer where it was located. Wait..I forgot the $800 deck off the family room just for the puppies to play in the winter..and then the screened back porch for the adults when it rained..that's all...except for buying quality dogs and equipment/showing/vet...I have no clue the 1000's of dollars I spent..we would be retired to a penthouse on the beach if I never discovered the world of Yorkies.., but I would have missed the best time of my life...!
PS...One friend started with a $45,000 addition..

I showed a friend who works for a contractor a drawing of my dream kennel and she estimated that it would cost me about $80,000. When are the bucks suppose to start rolling in? I'm still trying to save up enough money to send Connor off with a handler.

kennel
 

Tami...you only need to breed 80 pups and sell for a quick $1000 each..or 40 at $2000 each...

LOL!! I go for the 40!!

I think there is not one person that wouldn't love to have some extra cash...But breeding dogs with the health and welfare of the dogs in mind, it is just not going to happen!...I am in the hole without even taking in the cost of exhibiting!

So then, why do I do it?...Because I enjoy it...Sometimes when I haven't had sleep for days, lost a puppy, had a difficult whelp or I am sick and still have to care for the dogs...I even ask myself why but when it comes right down to it ...I LOVE IT!

Ask the people who enjoy jumping out of a plane why do they do it?...I bet it is for the same reason!

~Laura

How many cars will that buy my vet? Aren't I do for a discount yet?

We do it because we can't seem to help ourselves. It's that next possible win, the excitement of watching those pups move inside of mom for the first time, the anticipation that the next breeding just might bring that extraordinary dog that will fulfill all our dreams. We've been bit by the show bug and we just can't stop!

Here to LEARN
 

I am here to LEARN all I can about good safe healthy breeding.
Not to debate....lol
I just made the mistake of posting in another thread, when I usually hold my tongue. :p
::::::Slapping mouth:::::::

There's so much wonderful info here.
And I do think that anyone thinking about breeding their Yorkies or any dog for that matter, should be educated and prepared. NEVER breed any animal with known problems....

I've read TERRIBLE stories here of those who have bought from petstores, and uncaring breeders who just didn't care....It was all about the money.
So many heartbroken yorkie owners...(((( big hugs to them ))))

As far as thinking someone should ONLY breed for show quality dogs.......
I'm more worried about some of the humans who breed....lol~!!!!

Debbi

Your are absolutely right.. :thumbup: :thumbup: You said it well.. I am new in this past few years myself..My husbands teases me once in awhile and says, when are you going to get that one paid for.. with all the vet bills, blood work so on and so forth. It is a long hard road, that I have lost more then I have gained. ( if we are talking making money here). It will take me time yet.
I have been scammed also. It not only hurts the pocket book, but not fair on the dog, to be sold with breeding rights with a genetic problem to end up being a pet, no good as a breeder.. but he was paid for with hard earned money. Then to make sure he has the same kind of lifestyle, I find a friend who I know will love him/her as much as I did/do and I give that dog away.. How can you ask for money in a case like this.. the dog is important. He may not be a good breeder, but he was brought into my home and loved..

I will not get into the showing part.. I have been stung by show breeders too.
So not all show breeders do the right thing by people..
At one time it was an art to show, now it is a huge ego thing by many. but due to them showing.. many say nothing to them or about them.

pooh's mum

My thoughts exactly (also my thoughts exactly on your other post) :) There is a place for non-show quality dogs, it's called being a pet. While I don't endorse deliberately breeding dogs that deviate drastically from the standard, I would rather see a great personality than "perfect" coloring. Even judges disagree on what the "perfect" coloring is.

And I don't agree that all reputable breeders show their dogs. I know some who don't show, although they do go to shows and keep up on the standard, etc. They simply don't want to get involved in (or have already experienced) all the politics, etc. that goes along with showing. I personally view it the same way I view beauty pageants....

Of course, I'm not in any way condemning those who do show. And it's not to say that I won't ever change my mind. I can see how it really is in many ways very enjoyable. My point is simply that I don't feel showing is a requirement for a reputable breeder.

I know many of you will disagree, and I respect that. All this is JMO.