I personally have only sold 14 dogs from my website, without seeing the buyers in person...that was to reputable, well known breeders....one was out of State, two were out of country, there were maybe 6 people that I met at a show, we talked several hours over several days, and they contacted me later for a puppy. I have sold sight unseen to a couple of people that were given my name as a reference...they trusted the trainer and the handler and they contacted me...I did my checking and evaluating, and sold them dogs, site unseen....Does THIS make me a puppy mill???? NOT HARDLY! Several breeders that have gone out of business, have re-directed their own buyers, people THEY know and respect and trust, to me, and I have sold them dogs, sight unseen.....Does THIS make me a puppy mill???? NO! This is something breeders that have excellent lines in their pedigrees do frequently....Are we a puppy mill, because we sell excellent bloodlines/pedigrees to each other, to strengthen our own programs? Not hardly! We meet people at shows, they get to know show people and breeders and their dogs, and months later, after everyone is back home, that person will contact you about any upcoming litters. We can do all the evaluating and assessing these people by phone or over the internet, interviews and applications, and when we have a litter, we know if these people will be a good home for our puppies (even though THAT is NOT a qualifying factor as outlined by APHIS...they could care less what kind of people the dogs go to, they just want to mandate that they have access to your home so you can "lay your eyes on them, and they on you...as if THAT makes any impact on who I sell my dogs to) and we can sell a puppy, "sight unseen, off the website"....Does this make us a puppy mill??? Not hardly! This agenda has absolutely NOTHING to do with curtailing animal cruelty or ridding the world of puppy mills....this is aimed at running, INITIALLY, as many small breeders as possible, out of business...then they will move on to another area where they can gain control....until YOU have NO access to owning a pet unless you get it from a rescue or the dog pound...and when those dogs are all gone, you wont have access to owning a pet at all, and they will start on the cruelty of breeding farm animals for meat.....when I was first told all this years ago, I thought the person telling me this was slap dab crazy.....but I became more active in the political side of all this, actually seeing bills passed that were then "revised" down to tighter controls, and re-revised, until the particular situation was completely irradicated..... I am sitting here, watching it all happen, a step at a time...slowly, quietly,..... these bills are wolves in sheeps clothing...and by the time the general public and regular pet owners can actually SEE and FEEL and EXPERIENCE what is being devised descretely, it will be too late. One question....WHY should I be licensed???....why shouldnt the people that pander their sick puppies and kittens at flea markets and in parking lots and off the road side, out of the trunk of their car....why shouldnt THEY be licensed instead??? THOSE are the puppy mills dogs, that APHIS, HSUS and PETA would LOVE for you to believe they are trying to stop......so why dont they go after THEM???? Drive THEM out of business....THAT is what they claim they are trying to do! TOO MANY OF THEM??? You bet your bippy there are!! So, when someone is peddling dogs in those areas, storm troopers can pull up and ask THEM for a license to sell these dogs...and if they cant produce a license, conficate THOSE dogs....No, they wont be doing that...that makes too much sense! They will storm into Cloverhills breeding business, HER HOME, and ransack her home, confiscate all her breeding dogs and leave her absolutely dessimated....closed down a puppy mill???? NOT HARDLY!!! IRRADICATED A RESPONSIBLE, REPUTABLE BREEDER???? YOU BET! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!! I WISH CLOVER HILL WOULD COME ON HERE AND RELATE HER HARROWING EXPERIENCE TO YOU ALL...BELIEVE IT, IT IS HAPPENING, AS WE SPEAK!!!

Nancy the rules are the rules, they read pretty clearly to me. Even if you sell 1 or maybe 2 puppies over the "internet" sight unseen, an ethical person who wants to abide by the law would need a license; and then hope and pray that their home could pass an "inspection" BTW they can fine you up to $10,000 per infraction!.

For example if I wished to purchase a puppy from YorkieMom1, who lives what 2500 or so miles from me; I would hire a courier to hand deliver that puppy. I would have seen not only multiple pics of the puppy, but videos of that pups movement; and videos of how the puppies inter-acted with each other and their Mom. I would have verified that all specific pre breeding tests were done. I would have received over the internet - ie email - scanned documentation - I would have researched the pedigrees etc. But if She were to sell to me; just this one puppy she would be in defiance of this regulation.

There is a breeder currently residing in California, that has a BRT line I am interested in. California is about as far oh heck who knows even farther away to me. Now you are talking about a Rare Breed here. I know the breeder from 7 National Specialities, I've seen and examined the stud, I actually have met the dam. Same scenario, except for me, there are a whole lot fewer choices in breeders of BRT's then for Yorkies. At National specialities you might get 60-65 entrants from all over USA and CANADA, and some even come from Russia to show at a Specialty. In fact if the specialty is close enough you might get up to 40% of entries being Canadian - still that is only 24 dogs. Compare this to NYC's YT Specialty that would have over 150 or even closer to 200 entrants!.

Again I say to you with the RARE BREEDS, you have a much much smaller qualified purchaser pool to choose from. Do you know why commercial breeders do not Breed BRT's, or PUPPY MILLS, sadly though we are getting a few BYBER's. Commercial breeders don't breed them, first because there is NOT THE MARKET for them, that would make it profitable. Second the housing requirements are easily 5X larger then what a toy breed would need. It is also not such an easy thing to mate these Large and Giant Breeds.

The internet used discerningly is a wonderful tool and assist to we Rare Breeders. Most of our sales of puppies come from people who have met us at shows, obedience trials, hiking, protection work, dock diving, rally, and the list goes on. It is not unusual for a type of "wagon train" to be set up to deliver an actual puppy to the buyer. Particularly when distances are long. I have take a puppy down to PA from a breeder here in Canada, to deliver to the new purchaser who is in PA. I was going to PA for a show. And yes that is a huge trust being placed in me by that breeder. It happens frequently in the Rare Breeds.

while having little or not effect on the hated puppy mills! Or I will move to Canada! Gail, how is the real estate market up there????!!![/QUOTE]

LOL come on up. That cottage I rent is for Sale. Only 2hrs from Toronto, small lakeside community, with waterfront property... Asking $299K

You will how-ever have to leave your Guns at home:rolleyes: Handguns for the most part are illegal here. Now can a Texan Gal leave her "six shooters behind"????:p

I don't trust government "inspectors"
 

I had a horrendous experience a few months ago with an over-aggressive, unstable animal control officer that caused me to abandon my lovely home in order to return my dogs to the safety of my family home in a more breeder tolerant state. I won't post the details here because I haven't ruled out future action against the people who terrorized me that day.

It's very important to point out that I DID NOT LOSE ANY OF MY DOGS in this raid. I've worked hard to build a good reputation and I was able to get some influential people to intervene so that my dogs were not seized. I was also very lucky that day that people were able to drop what they were doing to help me. By grace of God I did not lose my dogs, nor was I charged with any offenses.

I have come to believe that most local animal control officers are members of PETA and HSUS. I also believe breeder raids are often carried out as fund raisers for local SPCAs and shelters. I believe more respectable breeders are raided than we know because they're likely too horrified, traumatized and injured to speak about it afterwards; they simply give up and disappear.

I don't trust anyone in the government to judge me.

Anyone out there needing advice on what to do in a raid, call me.

APHIS PROPOSED RULE OPPOSITION LIST

See the opposition list; of many many breed clubs to this new AWA.

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THANK GOD YOU KNEW THE INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE YOU KNEW...THANK GOD THEY DID WHAT THEY DID, AS RAPIDLY AS THEY DID IT....THANK GOD YOU HAD ANOTHER LOCATION YOU COULD FLEE TO...THANK GOD YOU WERE NOT DESTROYED OR FINED OR CHARGED WITH ANYTHING.....I would not have such resources. In my case, the end of a puppy mill??? Not hardly.....

LOL come on up. That cottage I rent is for Sale. Only 2hrs from Toronto, small lakeside community, with waterfront property... Asking $299K

You will how-ever have to leave your Guns at home:rolleyes: Handguns for the most part are illegal here. Now can a Texan Gal leave her "six shooters behind"????:p[/QUOTE]
:thumbup::thumbup:
Keep renting that cottage on the side, Gail! If storm troopers come to take my poor little dogs from me, the guns quickly become a negotiable/ disposable issue!!!! I could rent it until I could get my thought processes organized enough to come up with assets to finance this adventure! Maybe the owners of the cottage would take my Texas home and my beach lot in a swap...and I have a travel trailer to throw in for fun!

i am starting to look at some rubberized flooring. Given the more recent research on HD; and pups fared substantially better on non slip flooring, no stairs till after I think it was 12wks I'd need to look it up. Exercise out in the grass/lawn etc, appropriate to their age. I may look at carpet for my stairs or some other alternative.

Again NOT Because of APHIS but to provide the best environment for my pups to be raised.

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Keep renting that cottage on the side, Gail! If storm troopers come to take my poor little dogs from me, the guns quickly become a negotiable/ disposable issue!!!! I could rent it until I could get my thought processes organized enough to come up with assets to finance this adventure! Maybe the owners of the cottage would take my Texas home and my beach lot in a swap...and I have a travel trailer to throw in for fun![/QUOTE]

Keep your travel trailer, Bellwoods Lake just outside of Toronto - maybe 40 minutes away will rent you and your trailer space. I don't know their policy on dogs.....

Now you and I should move up to Lake Superior (on the Canadian Side). Spectacular scenery; decent folks, who actually know how to treat dogs. What a relief that was when we went camping up there for two weeks.

How-ever as a Texan gal, the winters will be fierce. Do you'all have winter in Texas?

In Lake Superior for $300K you'd probably get 100 acres and a modest house to boot!.

Personally I'm thinking about retiring to PEI or Nova Scotia, but that means for showing, I'm looking at the Eastern Seaboard States. Never mind for placing puppies. Both provinces have a Maritime Climate.

Anyhoo retirement is a ways off for me. But certainly I will be looking at dog "ordinance laws".

I don't know, Nancy. After listening to everyone, I think these ladies know how the breeding world operates. They have their ways of finding out about potential buyers and lots of opportunities to meet them. And I have to agree with them...government agencies never run things in a logical manner......ever. I'm beginning to think efforts need to go towards the closing of pupymills, and leave the good breeders alone to do what they do so well. This world will never be perfect.....you can't make it perfect......and it doesn't sound like these new regulations are even going to address the types of breeding operations people are worried about.

Hey Missy!!! YOU BET we have winters in Houston Texas......last winter our temps plummeted all the way down to 30*F for 3 days!!!! All my tropical plants froze to death!!!! As far as 100 acres....that is a LOT of grass to mow!!! Maybe 20 acres....10 apiece....and up the modest part on the house a little, in order to have enough room to house my babies!

Would this new law never even shut one puppy mill down? Are all the PETA- member inspectors just going after just the respectable, reputable breeders rather than those with the stacks of cages full of sick, neglected dogs and complaints being filed against them? In the process of their work, aren't even the most wild-eyed fringe inspectors going to get some puppy millers or do you think they will just come after the reputable breeder?

TeeHeee; Try 30 below up Lake Superior way. We will have to get you a Canada Goose jacket!. Plus mukalucks. Really warm sweaters for the pups. Dressing for winter is a serious business up there. Balaclavas, really really warm mittens, silk longjohns, etc.

All homes will have an extra generator up there - for when the power goes out. Best to get a wood burning furnace too.

We will need a four wheel drive car, plus a Skidoo. Also everyone stocks up on provisions before the snow flies:p. But you will see awesome Northern Lights, and there is Cell service and internet...lol lol Also someone to plow the driveway too.

Now nobody mows 100 acres. You mow about 5 or so. The extra land can be training ground for the Blackies!.
Fence in about an acre of land. I want an indoor/outdoor doggy pool. Plus an indoor training arena. Probably need to be propane heated.

The Blackies will keep the coyotes away, and btw hunting rifles, shot guns are allowed up in the Great White NOrth. Them things are for the Bears! And I don't want to lose any Blackies to the Bear population. Wolves they take on, but then again I wouldn't go out of my way to test that theory.

Now spring/fall, summer that land shines just so. Plenty of hiking trails, spectacular vistas every kilometer or so along the highway.

You'd want a garden for veges n such. They don't do a whole lot of fresh produce up there.

I've lived up in the North for a time; I did love it so. There are old fashioned kinds of things to do, quilting bees, knitting circles, baking, cooking, n freezing things. Having a hobby for the dark and cold days of winter is a godsend. It is also why you need an indoor training arena that is heated. So the pups can get good exercise during the hellish cold days.

Of course there is land much nearer than Lake Superior; but there is winter here, no doubt about it.

They don't discriminate--
 

We fear the inspectors will be well indoctrinated to the PETA and HSUS agendas and as such will not discriminate between good and bad breeders. They think we're all bad. Because we're small scale with limited resources we're easy targets. The large puppy mills have the financial resources to construct and sanitize their kennels right by the book, and for the lawyers to keep them out of trouble, so they'll just carry on as always. I think PETA and HSUS have been good for large puppy farm businesses. Pet stores and internet will be selling puppies long after the last little breeder has given up. Those of you looking for a well bred animal will be out of luck.

I've been really thinking about this. It is one of the huge benefits of civil even if it is impassioned dialogue.

Bear with me for a moment. It is perhaps another tale to tell of the Emperor's new clothes.

1.) This new regulation is purportedly designed to "catch" those awful puppy millers who sell direct to the public on the internet. Ummmmm

2). How will APHIS actually know that someone is selling direct to the public on the internet without a license?

3). In otherwords how do they police it? Will they just wait until a complaint or two or three hundred is made? And then try to track this "person"/entity down.

4) People who are reputable will try to abide by the regulations, people who are not .. Well they just won't abide and find ways n means around it.

Sadly Jillie it is much easier to go "after" folks who are registered ie licensed then those that are not. After all they are on 'your books" so to speak.

What you can do is EDUCATE, then EDUCATE again. Responsible small hobby breeders do have a role to play, that yes is done, one on one, or even here on this forum, for current and future members to read. But we have failed to organize, and gather up $$$ to advertise through print, through TV, through intelligently using the media.

How to we get out a consistent, coherent, message that will move people, that will last in their memory?

I do have some ideas. But where to share them?

I am very concerned that HSUS and PETA and the AFL are pushing this agenda/law/regulation.

I have grave concerns about their true agenda.

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I retire next year!!! I may very well be on my way!!! Sounds absolutely fantastic....how are the tornadoes and hurricanes up there????

I do beleive all breeders should be licensed by some governing agency, hopefully one that cane clear write and apply fair critically thought out wording for their regulations.
I do NOT beleice the USDA should be the licensing governing agency.

I can only restate my concerns of inhome breeders being forced as the Beers were to having a separate expensive kennel from their home as well buyer issues with teavel to obtain a pup etc.

Hiwever I highly recomecleanerH2o X5 steam mop and cleaner my aon gas sever allergies to mold and dust mites so we sterilize and "defilrh" all our surfaces...I steam my table and leather sofa once a week.

This has been a very informative discussion. I'm glad that the commercial breeders who are using the loophole to sell dogs (while having horrible conditions) will be held accountable.

Very Rare events. Last hurricane to hit Ontario was Hurricane Hazel, back in the 50's I think.

The skidoo is for when you are snowed in. Can be the only way you can make it into the nearest store.;)

I know that every time a government program of any kind, federal or state - of any sweeping nature - is enacted, there are always horror stories of someone or several families or business caught up in the bureaucratic miasma of zealotry or unintended consequences, victims of progress for the whole. When Medicare was enacted, good doctors with full practices of elderly people who depended on them retired, rather than be "told what to do by some bureaucrat". When a large corporation like Texas Instruments is able to obtain the rights to the land where its huge campus lays and builds its mighty complex that has employed so many over the years and built lifechanging technology, there were homeowners, businesses and landowners who were financially ruined or horribly disadvantaged. Some people die due to the huge changes and loss they have incurred - hearts and psyches and sensibilities just can't take the hit. When managed care began to take hold and the sweeping changes it brought about were showered down on the medical world, many more were adversely hit so that once again, hospitals and country/city doctors closed their doors due to the strict regulations and inability or lack of desire to change and adhere to the them and decreased fees. Businesses dropped carrying insurance on its personnel. People lost the only hospital their little town had in some cases and no doubt deaths occurred or health adversely affected. When LBJ Freeway land was bought and cleared in D/FW area years back, homes were bought for half-value and businesses closed and families, man old folks hurt forever.

You could say the same about almost any of the sweeping reforms that have affected us - regulations and change hurt people - they do. But in the main, as a whole, the changes overall help more people than they hurt. If you are one of those that is put our of business or suffers the loss of a home or life - the price is the ultimate one. If you are not one of those, you or a family member or society at large most likely was better served in the main by the new law or program.

Back in the 1990's I can remember paying almost $105.00 for a bottle of pain medicine before our insurance changed to a PPO, after which it was $5.00 our-of-pocket. My portion of a hospital bill was several thousand dollars while my private insurance paid the rest. With our PPO, my portion of a similar bill was $298.00. I know Medicare patients had to pay around $2,000.00 up front for total joint surgery in 1998 for our clinic's doctors to perform it - now they pay 20% of around $1500.00 after the surgery - a result of the decreasing of doctors' fees over time and more doctors in the Dallas area accepting Medicare assignment and competition. Yet some practices dropped insurance altogether for their clinic personnel and one of our doctors retired rather than accept such low fees and changes that new laws forced on medical practices.

I would say if the public at large who buys dogs and breeders who sell them are going to be horribly and adversely affected in many cases but there is funding and a way for some puppy milles to be closed and the suffering dogs ultimately helped by a new law, it seems it is a price we are all going to have to pay - and yes, some breeders will lose business or a home - and perhaps a new pet quality dog will routinely cost $4,000.00 or more right away. I think it is a price we are going to have to be willing to pay rather than the status quo, which isn't working for so many sick dogs stacked in cages.

Our Animal Control is understaffed and constantly busy ministering to its full cages of dogs, chart-keeping, filling out forms, answering the phone, updating the website with descriptions, out counseling or enforcing complaints, trying to round up a stray before it bites a child or its elderly owner cries herself sick, washing, feeding, caring for the huge amounts of dogs they constantly have - over 50% of which are big, powerful bully breeds and they take some brave, animal-loving people to humanely handle them for the duration of their stay. I don't see how they can take over more work and I know there will be no bond issue that brings them more personnel or help anytime soon in our area. Our AC seems stretched to the max - anytime you visit the premises they are sorely lacking personnel but the cages full to the max.

I hope that something can be done and by and large the reputable breeders as a whole won't be horribly hurt but it looks like to get anything done for those little forgotten ones, something else is going to have to take place to help the dogs that are not being helped at all now. And of course we can never close all of the puppy mills down but can't we try something else and then have our legislators change bad law with amendment/recensions, etc., as needed?

Talking about where to take your ideas, in your area don't you have a legislator or two who you can personally meet and take your ideas to? When managed care hit us, I personally feared much about it and knew we'd have many hard legislative battles to fight, so I befriended 2 state congressmen, 2 U. S. Senators and one darn fine lawyer in the State of Texas Attorney General's office. These men and two woman and many of their fine staffers all helped me unbelievably over the years when managed care laws hit us unfairly in some area or an insurance investigator took license with his role and began intimidation. I would ask the insurer's actions be investigated for intimidation and bad faith and send letters to one and all above and then some telling of our plight with an insurance company or misuse of the rules. When I had trouble, the State of Texas knew it. We got legislation changed/rewritten, just my rep and I. Not because of my influence but because it was right and I had other clinics I networked with who joined in with me sometimes. A small but active force can get help. When others abandoned me at times, I alone visited BC/BS of Texas Medical Director and later we became sort of friends. Our clinic didn't fold and we used the often "bad" managed care rules often to obtain rather large penalty payments of over $12,000.00 -$26,000.00 when we were treated shabbily by an insurer. So just because big government seems overwhelming, a single person can get much done when their cause is right and they never give up.

Yet another link and a reasoned argument
 

Well as a Canadian any legislator I have is not going to have much influence on USA law making. I think I have done what I can personally to be heard and to show my support for responsible breeders south of the border.

We shall see if this regulation passes, and what after five years or so is the impact.

You might see if one can give you entree to talking with the offices of legislators of the border state you most frequently deal with should you get an overly aggressive inspector or problem confront you. I know networking and the value of friendships forged trying to work together surely did help those of us dealing with many of the horrors our Texas Managed Care and Clean Claims laws and workmens' compensation overhaul brought about from years of problems in healthcare and work. comp. We very often started out bitter enemies and through keeping a dialogue open and some give-and-take, worked through what I often thought were insurmountable problems at times. I can't tell you how often I went to bed deeply depressed only to have some colleague of someone I'd never met call to give me the name of a buddy to call for some one-on-one help in one of our Fed/State Agencies. I wrote letters at home nights as my work was too demanding during the day to do it. And then to see the legislative amendments put forth, opened for public comment, sweat those times out, meeting challenges as they arose and finally see the law passed as amended with the bad law rescinded was such a party. And once even the Governor's office sent me a copy of a particular dear piece of signed legislation with his gold-embossed card attached and a little note on it. And I'd only written them a few times and spoken to a couple of aides there. But all the hard work and persistence to work through the bureaucratic red tape and outright administrative/legislative insanity won out for us 99% of the time. And we even had problems to deal with involving a sister company of BC/BS of Illinois in the country of Columbia and an international nightmare of twisted issues there involving a domestic abuse injury case of a Columbian VIP's wife during a time of serious political stress involving that country.