Proposed new aphis regulation
 

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012...2012-11839.pdf

Comment period is open for 60 days until July 16th

This is a new federal regulation purported to address the issue of "internet" selling of puppies.

Please read this for yourself. It will apply to you if you sell even *one dog*, without the buyer personally coming to your home to see the puppy.

It will also apply to Rescue Organizations. If anyone needs a link on where to comment on this proposed new regulation I can supply one.

All breed clubs should be already aware of this; if not make sure your breed club is!

When PETA and HSUS were pushing the House Bill through the Texas legislature, that limits breeding females to 10 dogs, or you need a commercial license, they were overheard saying "if we can get this one through, next year we will come back and get the total number of dogs down to 3!". That is EXACTLY what they are doing....they are effectively putting ALL breeders out of business, under the guise of "animal rights"....they are not really concerned about the issue of "animal WELFARE"...they are strictly trying to get ALL breeding of animals illegal, and they have started with dogs and cats, a little at a time...and next on the agenda, will be farm animals that are raised for food...hogs, chickens, cattle, etc. This is cause for concern for everyone, NOT just breeders. The government and PETA and HSUS are aiming for the day, and it wont be off in the too distant future, where no one will even be allowed to own an animal as a pet, or raise animals for food. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but it is coming.....I have fought this legislation tooth and nail, for at least the last 6 years...it is now snowballing for rapid pushing through government legislation, while attention is diverted to so many other areas, they are going to slide this in under the radar, while no one is looking.....what is the link to protest this Gail....these activists must be stopped. There is a distinct difference between "animal welfare" and "animal rights"....

I'm very interestested in this and would like to be put in the information loop and offer assistance to any efforts there are out there to preserve our rights to own pets. I have direct experience dealing with these nutty extremists and want to help!

I put the links in the Breeders Forum. Here is a link to an organization that is also fighting this.

The USDA Proposed Rule and You | National Animal Interest Alliance

http://www.regulations.gov/?_escaped_fragment_=documentDetail%3BD%3DAPHIS-2011-0003-0001


Link to take you directily to the comment section for that government regulation

WE need all the comments from rational folks we can get. apparently the AR folks, have the bulk of the comments - about 1000 comments made so far.

You are commenting on a Proposed Rule:
Animal Welfare; Retail Pet Stores and Licensing Exemptions (APHIS-2011-0003-0001)


INFORMATION




First Name: FailMiddle Name: Last Name: McLarnonMailing Address: City: TorontoCountry: CanadaState or Province: Ontario Postal Code: Email Address: Fax Number: Organization Name: Submitter's Representative: Government Agency Type: Government Agency:
Your Comment Tracking Number: 8103b05d

COMMENT




This regulation makes very little sense, and will provide a real risk most especially for the rare pure breeds. It puts an unfair burden on the hobby breeder of all breeds. Many times distance especially in our two countries where east to west comprise thousands of miles, making the buyer travel onerous distances to see the puppy in the breeders home.
It particularly makes no sense when you are talking about repeat buyers.
Should the breeder need to/must at times sell sight unseen, the regulations that they will be subject, basically throw out all that is great, good, and necessary for a properly socialized puppy raised in a home environment. Required to keep their dogs and puppies in kennels? Outside of the home? Makes absolutely no sense. These are companion animals destined to live in a family home!

The argument that retail stores provide some sort of "check: on the welfare of the puppies is specious!. Noway does the buying public actually get to see what goes on behind that cute little puppy in the window, or can observe what happens overnight.

And not to put to fine a point on this, you are also creating an unfair advantage on your best US hobby breeders, who will now be at an economic disadvantage when competing against the best Canadian hobby breeders. They will probably need to incur ongoing additional expenses, and have to raise their most valuable breeds in subpar conditions that kennels impose. The socialization of these puppies in particular will be inferior to what can be done in the home.

Just exactly how will you handle co-ownership of breeding bitches, never mind co-ownership that crosses international boundaries.

Just what is the definiton of a breeding bitch? One who is not neutered but never been bred before? One that has been bred but will never be bred again?

How do you think the rescue agencies are going to be able to handle your requirements? Are they now going to be considered a RETAIL agency?

[QUOTE=magicgenie;3940533]I'm very interestested in this and would like to be put in the information loop and offer assistance to any efforts there are out there to preserve our rights to own pets. I have direct experience dealing with these nutty extremists and want to help![/QUOTE

Boy, do you!! I am a member with you in YTCEHB....How can we get Marsha and the others involved with this too?

Where is the AKC on this????????? Are THEY mounting any kind of attack on behalf of all the hobby breeders and show people that make millions of dollars for this registry?

Don't know, but I know right now my registry the CKC is not on board. I'm drumming the tom toms there.

Also with our US and Canadian National Clubs for BRT;s.

I'll try to find out about AKC.

AKC is on it--
 

I got emails a couple of weeks back from the AKC urging members to comment.
Regarding National Animal Interests Alliance, I joined with a donation and want to follow up with an offer of hands on help. Your local dog club should be a member of your state federation of dog clubs and should be updating you on proposed legislation in your state. I believe the AKC web site also has a legislative affairs section that would inform you of items of interest.

This is extremely serious and we need support from the animal loving public who I think don't yet understand how close we are to losing our rights to own pets and the significance of that to our greater rights and freedoms.

I believe this legislation is a very dangerous one for the small hobby breeder, who is already under a fair amount of economic stress to do what they do and do it well.

Already truly speaking there are not enough responsible, knowledgeable, breeders of every breed, distributed relatively evenly across the country to meet the purebred demand of the American public by their breedings alone. So what do you get? You get what you have now, with popular breeds like the YT;s, numerous poor breeders, and of course the high volumne facilities, meeting the demand, that can't be met through the hobby breeder alone.

The bybers, will probably find a way to fly under this regulation, hey just pump out more puppies, and reduce the price (and what little vetting they do do), will go out the window.

What is the likely impact is that again, fewer and fewer great breeders, will continue on, and there will be less and less choice for the consumer. Go to a pet store, buy a pup from a USDA licensed breeder (with all that that entails), or go to your local byber.

I don't have the words to explain to the regular "joe" public, what the impact will be for them. Why they should care now! In five years or 10 years, when they want a well bred "dog", and they can't find a breeder in 5 nearby States, what then? Will they understand why?

You are not the first US breeder I've heard that has moved states, in order to do what they love to do, legitimately, safely, and proudly!.

I'm glad that you have offered to help.

AKC petition
 

Join With the AKC to Protect Responsible Small Breeders
The AKC now has a petition on this legislation, the link to which I have tried to post here.

They are completely clueless....when I have talked to groups of people about this and the chance that they may very likely loose their right to even own a pet, they look at me like I have completely lost all my marbles. I have taken that information and those links gemy posted and sent them to all my owners.....as breeders, we can do this for our owners, and garner support from them......I keep in touch with everyone I have sold a puppy to for tracking my program purposes, and I use that group mailing to send important updates, food recalls, etc.

Yes they are' and judging by the silence of the multiple breeders that I know are on this forum maybe these folks are clueless too!

I have tried to explain to my puppy buyers verbally and in writing' and to friends that own dogs, and their eyes just kind of glaze over..... They don't GET IT! And when they do it will be way way too late to make a difference.

Thank you gemy for staying on top of this! We have GOT to stop this....the collateral damage that will be done, as outlined in this letter, will result in the death knell for thousands of reputable, responsible, ethical breeders...........but then, THAT is the agenda behind these proposals, dressed up like PROPOSED legislation to "protect poor little abused animals"......which is something we all want done! So, TO THAT END, ENFORCE THE LAWS THAT ARE ON THE BOOKS ALREADY! SEVERE PUNISHMENT FOR ANYONE THAT IS CONVICTED OF ABUSING ANIMALS, WITH NO CHANCE OF EARLY RELEASE, REGARDLESS OF HOW "NICE AND WELL BEHAVED" THEY ARE, WHILE UNDER A MICROSCOPE IN PRISON, WHERE THEY ARE NOT AROUND ANIMALS! MANDATORY CONVICTIONS AND SENTENCING FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE GUILTY OF ANIMAL ABUSE......IF THAT IS INDEED THE MOTIVATION BEHIND THIS BILL!!! Make it illegal for pet stores to sell puppies and kittens, since THAT is the largest source used to funnel "puppy mill products" to the public. This Losey Letter outlines in bullet points, EXACTLY how this is going to affect all of us in home breeders. I hope people will read it and then go to AKC.org and sign the petition against passing this bill.

All I will say is that you are absolutely right. These laws are NOT going to shut down illegal puppy mills and byb breeders...they are already breaking the laws....GIANT DUH....enforce the freaking laws that are already on the books, what the hell are they thinking???? They are thinking this will shut the PETA type people up for awhile, chances are these politicians don't even understand this law or anything about mills and byb's. Honestly, I've kept my mouth shut on this cuz its not "my arena" but it does pee me off to know end....soon all we will have are Mutts and sickly inbreded dogs...we need to support our ethical breeders people....do your part, I have...

If you are a pet owner, and want to have well bred pups in the future it sure as heck is in your arena!

Somewhere in that densely written article, was the phrase "incremental wins"; the bit by bit process of acheiving your (the organizations aims) by chewing/chopping off bits of the problem.

The problem has been - and as I foresee it will always be the "regular dog owners" just don't get it at all!. And of course while we are an economic force to be reckoned with; we have NO VOICE. No voice united, aware, and adamant about what we want the future to be. Not to mention no funding.

APHIS extended the comment period; yet closed the first venue for submitting comments. AphIS has subsequently published a FAQ sheet to respond in part obviously to comments that were submitted. So IMO, they were unprepared not only for the resistance to this regulation but for the intelligent and reasoned arguments they were getting. They had hoped this would get by underneath the awareness of the general public.

AS a small Canadian hobby breeder, this regulation won't directly in the short term affect me initially. Except that there will be many small breeders in the US, that I might like to have a breeding dog from, and if they stop breeding what then? I do own a RARE BREED, and a Working Breed. We are a small community World wide. We share, we learn from each other, and yes we buy from each other. We meet each other at National Specialties, we meet each other over the Internet. We network together in Rescue and in so many other things.

I sincerely hope this new Regulation is ditched and does not go into effect!

Some links once again
 

To sign the AKC petition:
Join With the AKC to Protect Responsible Small Breeders

Regulations.gov

I hope the above is the new link to submit comments


Remember while it is good to sign the AKC petition; no matter how many names are on the list, it will only "count" as one comment.

Thanks for sharing this.

Thank you gemy--
 

Some of us do get it and appreciate your vigilance. I get several inquiries a day now from people who are searching for a reputable breeder and willing to travel interstate to get to one. I tell them they have PETA, HSUS and ASPCA and their extreme legislative agendas to thank for the shortage.
The lack of interest and response to this thread is disheartening.

Link this to the general forum please...many people do not use this section that often.

I've been interested in getting that legislation passed. Gail do you understand that right now if you sell directly to the public or over the internet you need no license, no matter how many dogs you sell? The worst puppy mills are unlicensed facilities. People here are always saying stay away from USDA licensed kennels, they are puppy mills, but they are loads better than the places that sell over the internet. I don’t buy the statement that even if you sell one dog this will affect you. Have you read the actual bill instead of a third party statement about the bill? This will give the USDA the same authoritiy as when breeders sold to pet stores. Commercial breeders have been known to target small breeders and fool them into helping them fight their fight. The site that you linked doesn’t sound like an independent site that explains the bill, it sounds like it’s just propaganda for the commercial lobby.

Here’s what the ASPCA says about the bill. USDA Moving to Regulate Internet Sales-Based Puppy Mills
May 11, 2012
If one of you breeders are worried about not passing a USDA tests, you need to read more about their requirements, their minimum requirements are very lax. Kennels need to be a certain minimum size with no rusty prods poking through and things like that. Don't let commercial breeders scare you into fighting their fights.

Actually they are not breaking any laws, that's the problem. There are NO laws covering those who sell over the internet. The laws only apply to those who sell to pet stores, this bill will help correct that.

All this is very interesting and informative.

I will respond here as well.
 

[QUOTE=Nancy1999;3980923]I posted on the other thread, but I want to post here too. Please read this bill before you believe what is being written about it. This has happened so many times, and the bill is nothing like people are saying. I've been interested in getting this legislation passed. (1) Gail do you understand that right now if you sell directly to the public or over the internet you need no license, no matter how many dogs you sell? The worst puppy mills are unlicensed facilities. People here are always saying stay away from USDA licensed kennels, they are puppy mills, but they are loads better than the places that sell over the internet. (4) I don’t buy the statement that even if you sell one dog this will affect you. (2)Have you read the actual bill instead of a third party statement about the bill? This will give the USDA the same authoritiy as when breeders sold to pet stores. Commercial breeders have been known to target small breeders and fool them into helping them fight their fight. (3) The site that you linked doesn’t sound like an independent site that explains the bill, it sounds like it’s just propaganda for the commercial lobby.

1) I do

2) I have

3) Don't know why you say that. To the best of my knowledge it is not run by a commercial lobby. If I find out that it is. I will rescind my recommendation to read this site.


4) From the Bill
II. Summary of Major Provisions
‘‘Retail pet stores’’ are not required to

obtain a license under the AWA or

comply with the AWA regulations and

standards. Currently, anyone selling, at

retail, the following animals for use as

pets are considered retail pet stores:

Dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs,

hamsters, gerbils, rats, mice, gophers,

chinchilla, domestic ferrets, domestic

farm animals, birds, and cold-blooded

species.

This proposed rule would rescind the

‘‘retail pet store’’ status of anyone

selling, at retail for use as pets, the

animals listed above to buyers who do

not physically enter his or her place of

business or residence in order to

personally observe the animals available

for sale prior to purchase and/or to take

custody of the animals after purchase.

Unless otherwise exempt under the

regulations, these entities would be

required to obtain a license from APHIS

and would become subject to the

requirements of the AWA, which

include identification of animals and

recordkeeping requirements, as well as

the following standards: Facilities and

operations (including space, structure

and construction, waste disposal,

heating, ventilation, lighting, and

interior surface requirements for indoor

and outdoor primary enclosures and

housing facilities); animal health and

husbandry (including requirements for

veterinary care, sanitation and feeding,

watering, and separation of animals);

and transportation (including

specifications for primary enclosures,

primary conveyances, terminal

facilities, and feeding, watering, care,

and handling of animals in transit).
]

Please see highlighted items


Now Nancy, I was alerted to this "new regulation" by three very reputable Rare Breeders. Asking for my help if after review of the legislation I thought that either it was a) a clear and present danger to hobby breeders b) ineffective c) cost prohibitive and d) would actually do one whit to curb actual puppy mills.

A while ago I read the requirements for Kennels, and I was appalled. First and foremost in my mind, VERY FEW PUPPIES IF ANY, should be raised outside in kennels. It is poppycock. Dogs are in the main part destined to live in residential homes, and that is exactly where they should be brought up.

I would like to see the demise of ALL COMMERCIAL KENNELS and PUPPY MILLS and BYBERS. But then where would we be? Empty rescues, shelters? Ummmm. I wonder.

Now I have a question for you; have you read the Losey article? It is linked in the Animal Protection and Welfare thread.

I am going to ask a very basic question akin to ; The Emperor's New Clothes (remember that story), why if you want to STOP internet selling of puppies from suspected Puppy Mills, are you NOT looking at an Internet solution?

IS the answer this Regulation , OR is it more importantly, EDUCATION. Education of the buying public.

Now back to this proposed regulation. Four Breeding Bitches? I asked on my comment to them What is the Definiton of a breeding Bitch? Oh wow, just an unspayed female? How damaging. There are females we will retire from breeding, and NOT SPAY due to health risks surmounting any benefit. There are puppy females who are too young for breeding, too young for placement. In any given month we may have a whole lot more than 4 unspayed Bitches in the house. So what do you want me the hobby breeder to do with my beautiful 5 yr old bitch who I've retired from breeding, can't spay but want to keep her in the only home she has ever known? Remember I will work with my breed for their lifetime. I might still be working with her for her Utility Title or Rescue work.

With the Rare breeds and other breeds I know for sure, but particularly the RAre Breeds we network constantly over the internet. Post pics, crow and brag about our accomplishments, show litters, house, training areas, meet each other at shows. Remember many of us may travel 1000 miles or so to get to a show. Oftentimes when at shows, we will purchase a puppy from each other. We have already done the pedigree research, and in this environment, we get to see, to feel, to touch, to watch the movement of the puppy we are interested in. Or we are examining the studs, and bitches that do come to the Nationals or other big shows. The maybe over the phone or internet we arrange the purchase of same. I don't want my ability to purchase a top quality dog to be decimated by this "ruling". We are few enough breeders in North America as is!.

I respect your opinion Nancy, as I hope you do mine;maybe we see things through different lenses.

Gail, I believe the commercial breeders lobby is using reputable breeders to pass on misinformation. So many of them just pass the email along without fully understanding what it says, and of course if someone who you respect passes it along, well you believe it's all true. Do you at least trust the ASPCA? Have you read what they say about the law?


This whole thing was started because of a commercial breeding facility called "Purebred Breeders, LLC". They have over 800 websites with different names and sell over 20,000 puppies a year. People were buying sick dying puppies and the Humane society got involved in a lawsuit with them. Purebred Breeders LLC is worse than the Hunte corporation who use to buy from independent dog breeders who at least had to be USDA inspected. It used to be thought that pet buyers who bought directly from a breeder would visit the home and see for themselves the conditions of the dogs, this is no longer true and the government has no recourse against these companies who are selling directly to the public.

You say, "A while ago I read the requirements for Kennels, and I was appalled. First and foremost in my mind, VERY FEW PUPPIES IF ANY, should be raised outside in kennels. It is poppycock. Dogs are in the main part destined to live in residential homes, and that is exactly where they should be brought up." You make it sound like a small breeder would have to put their dogs into a kennel, this just isn't true, but this type of propaganda has been passed before when making state laws, you can still have your dogs live with you in a family setting and in fact, that's what the HSUS tells pet buyers to look for. I urge all you breeders to get involved with the making of bills, you have great information on what would help protect the small breeder.


Gail I've been trying to educate the buying public for a long time now, I can't even get people to visit the homes of the people they buy their dogs from. One of the reasons I link the YTCA website is because at least they have breeders in most states and people can visit the homes, this is so important. If we love out pets we should be sure that their "parents" are being property treated.

Where did you read the term 4 breeding bitches? If it's from the actual bill the definition of a breeding bitch should be given. If it's from another site, the number may be wrong.

In the bill, there is no definiton of breeding bitches!. The number is NOT WRONG, and it is baldly stated in the bill numerous times.l

Please post the link to the USDA licensing requirement, that shows breeding dogs can be kept in a home environment

Nancy you have not answered my question; HAVE you READ the LOSEY submission?

Where did you read the term 4 breeding bitches? If it's from the actual bill the definition of a breeding bitch should be given. If it's from another site, the number may be wrong.[/QUOTE]


Here you go; just one mention of it in The Regulation

Finally, as noted previously, we are

proposing to amend § 2.1(a)(3)(iii) to

increase from three to four the number

of breeding female dogs, cats, and/or

small exotic or wild mammals that a

person may maintain on his or her

premises and be exempt from licensing

and inspection requirements.