YES THEY DO! Is it truly "sight" unseen? Well no of course not. What it often comes from, is meeting prosective buyers at shows, showing your sire and maybe bitch to these folks. Communicating via the internet on various topics. Showing the litter through various internet means. Talking ad infinitum to those folks.

For example; Betty Anne Durrer, has a pup for sale. I like the bloodlines, I know Betty from numerous shows; I know the dam, and I know the sire. I've seen pictures; I've talked numerous times over the phone. I decide to purchase a puppy from her; physical sight unseen. She would sell to me and I would purchase said puppy!

Could you link the article that you got this from? Quoting just a line or two can often be misunderstood. I've talked with breeders who say, it's very important to sanitize the whelping area, for example. Also, when there is a large number of dogs, it's important to be able to clean the area in which they relieve themselves.

The FAQ comes from the people who make the law, it's should be accurate in describing what the law will do, if it isn't, you have a bigger problem than puppy mills.

Gail, this law is just to help regulate those breeders who sell from a website. Is the law perfect, no, there will still be those that abuse it, but now authorities will have some way to find and prosecute those breeders who are the very worst of the worst.


I would like you to answer two questions, do you think it's acceptable for a breeder to sell a dog through a website? Do you believe the breeder who does this needs no inspection of kennels?

Gent...good point on the health checks. I agree...health checks on breeding dogs should be mandatory before allowed a license.

I meant GEMY not gent....I hate this phone!!!! It has this auto spell check...if it doesn't.recognize a word, it puts one in that it does.

You answered your own question it's not sight unseen. I'm talking about websites with one click shopping.

Animal Welfare Act | Animal Welfare Information Center

that is the link for the excerpt I abstracted. Also look at the very one FAQ where it stipulates "if" you allow your dogs free run of your home; then they will look at things essentially on a case by case basis.

(1) YES If this is a reputable breeder then why not? The question of internet sales or not, does not make defacto a "bad breeder. In this day and age, the internet is a wonderful tool, we can use to communicate to look up tons n tons of information. Why shouldn't a reputable breeder avail herself of this tool? I can as a buyer learn of some great puppies for sale in this way. How-ever all the research needs to be done by the buyer, prior to purchasing.

(2) Yes I believe in inspections actually. But under a different sort of circumstances the USA law seems to provide for. I believe that home breeders need to be given huge credits for doing what so many commercial breeders don't and can't do! That is rear a puppy 24/7 in a home environment. And yes the whelping area not only needs to be cleaned, but needs to be kept safe n secure from other pets in the house, during the critical0-5 or so weeks. We can do this, through the use of gates, doors, separate areas of the house.

Once the breeding is done, the whelping and puppy placement is done, why shouldn't I be allowed to let my dogs have free reign of the house? They are my dogs, my home, my companions, a huge part of my life!

Thanks for the link, but I'm not finding the part you quoted, could you link the exact page? As far as saying a case by case basis, I think that's fine. If a breeder has numerous complaints of sickly dogs, they would probably want to do an inspection. Do you remember the case Teresita Hughes a breeder in Florida, they found hundreds of dogs in a bedroom in her home. How did they know to inspect, she had so many complaints from consumers who bought sickly dogs.

I disagree with you on reputable breeder, I feel so strongly about this. No reputable breeder sells from the website, sight unseen, part of being a reputable breeder includes making sure you are placing the dog into good hands.


Gail, your dogs will be allowed to have free roam of your house, I don't know why you don't think you will be able to do this. This doesn't even make sense. Again, this is the type of scare tactic put out by commercial breeders to scare the heck out of you small breeders and help you fight this law.

It's far more complicated than this--
 

I think the regulation is for breeders with 4 OR MORE breeding females, but the legislation fails to define what constitutes a breeding female. Do they mean breeding age females? Females of any age that have been previously bred? Newborns that may be bred in the future? It's impossible to have a breeding program with only 3 females anyway, regardless of definition of breeding female, at least not if you're trying to establish a new line. I didn't read anything about the sellers and buyers have to meet. The legislation addresses situations where the buyer doesn't go to the seller's premises. The bad guys will soon arrange to have agents at every buyer's disposal to circumvent that requirement.
Why do we need this law? Every breeder is supposed to have a kennel license and inspection at the local level--city, town, county, state. AKC inspects us too. Why not have their reports forwarded to the powers that be. Why is the fed not just providing financial support so the locals can enforce the laws that are already in place?
This new law is going to cause a lot of confusion when inspectors find that some little breeder's living room isn't engineered to whatever the sanitation standards are for USDA---don't they require certain flooring materials and drains to facilitate cleaning, things that would apply well to a big big puppy farm?
People who buy puppies over the internet sight unseen from people they know nothing about are just plain careless, IMHO, and trying to protect them from themselves is futile.

I'm glad to see this discussion taking place, and very politely at that!

Its a bit extreme to include ASPCA as rxtremist.

This is backed by PETA and the humane society.

I'm including ASPCA in the extremist category now because of some things they're involved in. I don't support them any more, but you are right that I MAY be a bit extreme in my thinking there. I'm still processing stuff there.

This is the one point that I would agree with. I think they need to define what they mean by breeding female, if it's means any unspayed female over 4 months of age, I don't think that's a good definition. However, again, this would only apply to those breeders who sell with no face to face interaction. In other words those breeders who sell from the websites. I would hope you breeders could have influence on defining this term better. Unfortunately it’s so hard to get good breeder to help in producing good legislation, they are afraid of any legislation because of what "others" have told them about it, and so it’s the commercial breeders who help compose it. A good breeder is much more likely to a puppy 4 months of age, still unsold, than a commercial breeder is.


You say why do we need the law? You’re missing an important point, I don't know why I can't get this across, but right now, the breeders who sell directly to the public do not need any kennel inspections or licenses, the original law was made to cover those breeders who sell to pet stores and brokers, and they have to be licensed by the USDA. This is designed to so that those breeders, who sell from their websites, will need now to have licenses if they have more than four breeding females. Everyone here always discourages people from buying from pet stores; they say no reputable breeder would ever sell to a pet store. Well, many of these commercial breeders have stopped using pet stores as their primary outlet and now they don’t even have any laws that touch them, because those breeders who sell directly to the public do not need to be licensed. What is so horrible about getting a license and having to be inspected? If you’re with the AKC you have to subject yourself to inspections anyway. Unfortunately, most of these commercial breeders are no longer with the AKC and have created their own registries. If you aren’t selling from your website, this bill wouldn’t affect you. I looked at your website, it tells about your breeding program, it doesn't have a PayPal button where an unseen person can purchase a dog without any type of human interaction. That's the type of breeder they want to regulate and inspect.

While it is imperative for a breeder to place a dog in a home where it will be well taken care of and loved, I think you are making a statement using too broad of a stroke. There are many ways to evaluate how good a home and care a person will be able to provide for a pup. There are also extenuating circumstances, and once you set something in stone like that, it doesn't allow for evaluation on a case by case basis.

Your dedication and determination into stopping large breeders and puppymills who don't place the welfare of the pups first and foremost is admirable, but we also should find a way to protect those breeders who strive to produce healthy, happy, and well-bred babies. They sacrifice so much and put their heart and soul into both the members of their family but also the beautiful offspring that they produce and also love. I have an even deeper respect and admiration for the breeders who give of themselves daily raising and caring for their babies in their homes and their hearts but also who are here to help our community. Our lives are enriched because of them.

How would a breeder know if it's a fit home without any type of human interaction? If you want to buy a or sell a puppy this way, it will still be possible, but now with this law, those breeders who sell this way, will need a license and be subject to the same rules as those breeders who sell to pet stores. Why should a breeder who sells to a pet store need a license and one who sells over the internet not need one?

No, I'm not missing the point at all--
 

Look at the discussion back and forth and how we've confused ourselves and each other trying to interpret this law.
There are already laws on the books that are supposed to put bad breeders out of business. If we enforce those with all our might these new laws won't be needed.
I do believe that all localities now have some kind of animal control laws that require kennel licensing and inspection of homes with 4 or more dogs. That should catch most of the bad breeders out there. I can support developing and enforcing those PROVIDED there are safeguards against rogue raids such as I was subjected to. As it stands, if one's animals are seized in a raid, they are never returned, even when the owner later prevails in court. This needs to be looked at.
I suppose someone could secretly have a kennel and be selling puppies directly on the internet, but that's underground business and the types that engage in that will always find a way to carry on.
My fear is the more law there is, the less people will understand it, and the more likely someone innocent will be harmed.

That's where you're wrong there is no laws that are trying to put bad breeders out of business, that's not even what a law intends to do. There are laws that cover minimum standards for kennels, but breeders who sell directly to the public are not covered by these laws.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title9-vol1/xml/CFR-2009-title9-vol1-chapI-subchapA.xml
The above link takes you to the AWA act and you will note that SECTION 3.1 (c) is as follows(c)Surfaces--(1) General requirements. The surfaces of housingfacilities--including houses, dens, and other furniture-type fixtures andobjects within the facility--must be constructed in a manner and made ofmaterials that allow them to be readily cleaned and sanitized, or removed orreplaced when worn or soiled. Interior surfaces and any surfaces that come incontact with dogs or cats must:
Now from that FAQby APHIS: Please note what happens if the breeder allows her animals free run of the entire house. Most homes by their very definition do not have surfaces that can be "sanitized".
If, however, a dogbreeder allows their dogs to have
free run of the entirehouse, APHIS will assess whether
the home can houseanimals within the health and
humane standardscontemplated by the AWA. If the
breeder has a kennelor cages that the dogs can stay
in inside the homethat meet AWA standards, we would
consider that compliance with the primary

Fox News
 

For those of you who don’t get the Fox Business channel but do get the Fox News Channel on your cable system, we have just learned that they will be airing the segment at 12:50 p.m. (EST) on the Fox News Channel and then again back on Fox Business at 4:48pm.

This morning starting at 11:54 a.m. and then at 1:13 p.m. (EST) the Fox Business Network, a national cable network, is scheduled to do a series of live news segments throughout the day on the AKC Petition to Protect Responsible Breeders in regards to the USDA/APHIS rule change to the Animal Welfare Act. The segment is slated to air (barring any breaking news interruptions) both sides of the story featuring a Washington DC-area AKC Breeder of Merit participant and a representative from APHIS. Hopefully, you can tune in to watch it.

I don't know if they will rerun it; I got home too late to watch, even if I do get Fox lol. I will try to look it up on my TV guide.

I don't see the problem with this, it also adds that "or removed or replaced when worn or soiled". I think most people with pets would agree with this. Let’s say you had to sanitize the place because of a parvo breakout in your home, there are products you can use on even carpeting. If you have some surface that can't be cleaned for some reason, you can still replace it. I would think most pet owners have surfaces that can be cleaned. Sanitize doesn't only mean sterilized, it means clean “by removing unwanted filth from it”. I think we have to use some common sense here.

Join in with the AKC; USDA/APHIS Regulations Resource Page

Oh Nancy please post for me where USDA has approved a whole home. And we are using common sense here. I will not remove my kitchen cabinets, nor can I sanitize them, nor my leather furniture in the living room.

Please do more research on what other breeders are saying. I respect and admire your passion for making sure PuppyMills are no more. But this regulation is very poorly worded and thought out for hobby breeders, who want to keep their dogs in their own less than "sanitized" home.

And this little change of Regulation has now gone National. IT is a BIG DEAL.

Some of us fear government--
 

Nancy, these new rules will be enforced by government people. These tend to be very rigid people who have their rule book and need every situation to fit the book. Government bureaucracy doesn't allow for common sense. I'm afraid of these people for they are not at all troubled about ruining someone's life over a technicality they can't think their way through. We have to do a better job educating the public and stopping the bad guys without destroying the good ones.

Just incase this goes through I wanted to sharw Apple Cider Vinegar kills parvo and a UVC spectrum light wand sterilizes everything...perhaps this is a solution if the petitioñ fails.

Really where does that definition come from?

Here is what the act says in terms of sanitization


(3)Hard surfaces of primary enclosures and food and water receptacles must besanitized using one of the following methods:
(i)Live steam under pressure;
(ii)Washing with hot water (at least 180 deg.F (82.2 deg.C)) and soap or detergent,as with a mechanical cage washer; or
(iii) Washing all soiled surfaces with appropriate detergent solutionsand disinfectants, or by using a combination detergent/disinfectant productthat accomplishes the same purpose, with a thorough cleaning of the surfaces toremove organic material, so as to remove all organic material and mineralbuildup, and to provide sanitization followed by a clean water rinse.

So Nancy would u like to wash your leather furniture table n chairs under this method?

I am not only using common sense I am reading the rules!. You want to wash and rinse your table lamps, drapes et al according to this regulation?

Many surfaces in a family home can't be cleaned to these standards!

I am a Canadian, not immediately effected by this "new" proposed regulation; but I AM a concerned, intelligent and critical thinker, and am most concerned with the preservation and improvement of the purebred dog.

Why am I so passionate and dedicated to this? I don't breed Yorkies, I don't sell anything at all on this forum! I never have and I never will.

This regulation is "ill advised", and will not do one whit to propogate well bred dogs. What-ever it "might" do is going to be at the cost of dedicated and commited hobby breeders.

I do say that you can't and shouldn't do this at the cost of reputable small breeders "going away from breeding".

In the "analysis" APHIS provided, they said approximately 1500 breeders will be affected by this New Regulation,. Really? Ummm 1500... Now let me see, there are 50 States I believe. Ummmm Lets divide 1500 by 50 awh really only 30 "breeders" effected in each State? Suspect Numbers.

So let us come at this in a different number way. Approximately depending on what source you look at anywhere from 15-20% of US and Canada own dogs. US population is ~$300 Million and Canada ~$30 Million. 20%=69Million folks own dogs. Do you really think that there are only 1500 breeders to support a demand for purebred dogs with this kind of ownership numbers? Let us say that in any given year 2% of those dog owners are looking to purchase..... that is 1,368,00 dogs a year. Do you truly think only 1500 breeders are sourcing this demand? Even if you allocate 1Million dogs to the commercial breeders that leaves a whole lot of dogs being bred by non commercial breeders.

As a former professional accountant this does not pass the "sniff" test for me.

Another Breed Club argues against Aphis New Regs
 

http://www.englishshepherds.net/arti...ntsReAPHIS.pdf

Please see the attached article.

Gail, thanks again for your diligence in this area....people that are NOT breeders, can not see the full impact this Federal Bill will have.....there are sooooo many separate sections that small hobby breeders or dog fanciers are going to suffer from, and people that are not actively involved in the "workings" of breeding, just can not understand because they do not know all the details utilized in breeding. My computer skills are horrific, so if you dont mind, I will forward to you, any information, links, etc that are related to this legislation, and you can implement it in your attempts to explain how dangerous to reputable breeders passage of this bill will be. Thank goodness it went National...I was at work and missed it....I am working with many breed clubs, helping to lobby against this Bill....Anyone that breeds dogs or shows dogs KNOWS this Bill will have no effect on the very people they are trying to irradicate, puppy mills......they are instead going to irradicate the very people that are responsible for providing happy, healthy puppies to people that want one. Of course, anyone that supports this bill will see any arguments we put forth, as propaganda or biased, inaccurate information...I will send you information that is NOT opinion, these are arguments of fact, and speak for themselves. I do think our energy and diligence can be better utilized on a National level, directly with the law makers. I have contacted Sean Hannity on Fox News and am working that area.....I have worked with him in the past...I will be in touch with you...thank you again for your efforts, and thank you for helping ME with this stupid computer and posting links, etc....

I think even as a dog iwner strictly the AKC endorcing petitioning against this is very telling.

This isn't true either. There have been many state laws regarding kennel conditions that have been passed recently and the AKC has been against every single one of them. Most pet owners don't bother to even register their dogs with the AKC, they say, "I'm not breeding or showing, so therefore I have no interest in registering my dog. The AKC is governed by breeders, not pet owners. I would be against this bill if it did the things some say it would do. I'm an advocate for the small breeder, but the type of breeder I’m for doesn’t sell her dogs to people sight unseen. This same thing has happened with every state law that has been passed as well, breeders are in an uproar and say it will do things that it doesn't do. This will only affect those breeders who sell over a website, it will not affect those breeders who sell from their homes. May I ask you, what’s wrong with these breeders having a license? That’s the thing that would change, they would need a license.

If this goes through, I guess I will be spraying all my mahogany end tables, coffee tables, piano, book cases with 180* hot water....dont really know how hot water will work on my mahogany...I have already pulled all the carpet out and have tile and stained concrete....got rid of all upholstery furniture and replaced with leather or wrought iron (as a result of trying to sterilize my home after a puppy buyer brought parvo into my home 10 years ago). Common sense???? from a Government agency????? After Ike hit the area, and the shingles were lifted and peeled back from the roof decking down the entire length on one side of my home, rain was driven into my attic, which flooded, causing the ceiling and then the walls down one side of my home to actually cave in. The appraiser came out....I swear this is true!!...climbed on my roof, PULLED HIS LITTLE APPRAISER BOOK 101 FROM HIS HIP POCKET, AND TOLD ME THE ROOF DID NOT NEED TO BE REPLACED BECAUSE....and this is the halarious part!!!!....NO SHINGLES WERE LAYING ON THE GROUND IN THE YARD!! THEY HAD JUST BEEN PEELED BACK AND COULD BE FOLDED BACK OVER THE AREA AND THEY WOULD BE FINE!!!!!!!!
Do I give ANY government agency ANY credit for any sense or the capability to make any determination that is not spelled out EXACTLY as any given situation presents itself in their little RULES AND REGULATION BOOK 101, ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! This is only 1/4 of the problem.....I have a real issue of unannounced visits! I also hold a gun dealers license. This gives the ATF the right to come into my home any time and inspect my home for compliancy....I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH THIS AS I CONDUCT MY GUN BUSINESS FROM ONE ROOM IN MY HOME. THAT IS THE ONLY AREA THEY CAN INSPECT, ALONG WITH THE RECORDS OF THE BUSINESS. My babies have run of the majority of my home......I WILL GET OUT OF THIS BUSINESS BEFORE I ALLOW FEDERAL DISPATCHERS TO RUN RAMPANT ALL OVER MY HOME, INSPECTING ANY AREA WHERE MY DOGS ARE ALLOWED TO RUN, BRINGING IN GOD ONLY KNOW WHAT KIND OF DISEASES ALL OVER THEIR BOOTS, CONTAMINATING MY ENTIRE HOME....NO THANKS!
This has always been my passion...this is NOT how I make my living, because doing this correctly is NOT a money making deal for small breeders, although I must admit, I DO make more than $500.00/year off my puppies, MAYBE MAKING ME A "GREEDER" IN SOME PEOPLES EYES..... All I have ever wanted to do with this, is be able to provide people with healthy, correct Yorkies that dont die of genetic anomolies or diseases. I will NOT allow my home to be stormed by troopers dispatched by ANY government agency, unannounced, who then may just decide to STEAL my dogs under the guise of "non compliant conditions", dispersing them to whomever THEY can peddle them to.....no I will rehome all my dogs, and give up this expensive passion of mine. NO....I will let the rest of you "trust" a government agency to make decisions and determine how they are going to run YOUR homes and daily lives. I will NOT allow the feds to intrude into my life to that degree, just so I can provide healthy puppies to a majority of pet owners that can NOT get past the vision of puppy mills in the woods, and would support a measure that will absolutely do more harm and damage to the WRONG GROUP of people, while having little or not effect on the hated puppy mills! Or I will move to Canada! Gail, how is the real estate market up there????!!!

I really don't think this is true, and if it were, couldn't you just meet your clients in person instead of selling from a website and then you won't have to be licensed.