Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 3027499)

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Training for most animals is done both to benefit us humans as researchers and for the animal. This is one reason I love animal training so much - it's a mutually beneficial activity.

Zoo keepers spend a tremendous amount of time thinking up ways to keep their animals engaged and fulfilled. For instance, there was a lion in the small NYC zoo who appeared to be depressed. His keepers started to hide his meals so he could "stalk" them, and his demeanor improved tremendously.

In any case, many animals live longer lives in captivity than they do in the wild, and you can make a good argument that many animals are better off.

Again, this is not to say that he MUST be kept in captivity, but releasing him is not a simple process, nor does it guarantee that he would be "happier". It's quite possible that he would not be accepted to into a wild pod, and he would have no social contact at all. He currently has bonded with his human trainers, and with the other whales he lives with.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 3028012)

How has the research and training of tricks for Orcas in captivity benefited Orcas...bc I honestly don't understand that side of the argument?

How do zoos fulfill animals, what do you mean by that? Do you see how animals pace back-and-forth in their cages at zoos? Or how they rock and self-stim? Those behaviors are extremely meaningful in terms of the effects of captivity. I would not view those behaviors as signs of being fulfilled or engaged.

So are you saying that bc *some* animals live longer in captivity - that quantity of years equates with QUALITY of life? What do you mean "you can make a good argument that many animals are better off" in captivity?

I'm not sure anyone said releasing him was a simple process. There are also whale sanctuaries who were willing to care for him for the rest of his life - while also letting him be, if that's what he seemed to "prefer" (ie, no more training/tricks).

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 3033402)

Zoos have put a tremendous amount of work figuring out how to keep animals stimulated. I'm sure there's a long way to go, but it's not just, "throw the animal into a cage and hope for the best." Again, zoos in particular have come a very long way in the past 25 years. Generally speaking, zookeepers *love* their charges: they have essentially dedicated their lives to animal husbandry.

Training for orcas (or any animal) benefits the animal directly because the animals enjoy training. Animals like having their minds stimulated too. Referring back to the "Animals Make Us Human", training stimulates and satisfies the SEEK drive.

Indirectly, of course, it helps us understand orcas better, which benefits us and helps us understand how better to care for the world. It's the basic motivator behind any type of scientific research.

FYI, it is extremely difficult to study whales in their natural habitat - because they spend a lot of their lives under water! Again going back to dolphins, which I know more about, they appear to have a wide array of living arrangements and food gathering techniques, but it's difficult for us to observe anything that doesn't happen right offshore. A lot of people do not like tagging dolphins / whales with tracking devices, as they fear the tagging process is traumatic, and that other animals may react to them. Since they have echolocation, they can actually see INTO each other, so even a device that is subcutaneous potentially can cause a problem.

Of course length of life does not necessarily equal quality of life. However, we tend to forget that most animals spend their lives in rather desperate circumstances - they are trying to avoid being eaten alive, or starving to death. Being safe and well-fed are not things to take for granted.

I do think that zoos help foster respect for wildlife. It's one thing to read about a giraffe, and another thing entirely to see one. After all, children are the ones who really love zoos, and I think it helps shape the love for all types of animals.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 3034624)

I've repeatedly said I cannot speak specifically to orcas, as I have not read any in-depth material on them. I also said that if they have shorter life spans in captivity, that's certainly an indicator that they aren't doing well. It seems reasonable to me to think that some animals could do well and others couldn't.

This entire subject is about orcas. No need to expound on other species not relevant to this... i.e. giraffes

"It's inherently cruel to keep animals in captivity." Really? Why? This seems to me to be an entirely emotional, anthropormorphic argument.

If you are going to quote me, at least get it right. I said it is inherently cruel to keep *some* species in captivity.

Nature is "perfectly cruel." That's not a fact, it's a philosophy, which is fine, but it's not really something you can speak to either way. Either you feel that way or you don't.

Millions of years of animals doing perfectly fine without our intervention says otherwise. If it is a philosophy, it's backed up by fact.


Just curious, has anyone who is so passionately against training actually read any studies on how this works? Because I have read a lot, and honestly, to me, "reducing an orca to begging for scraps" sounds incredibly like spin to me.

What else would you describe the Sea World type shows as being? They do tricks for food....'nuff said.

"Whales are held captive for amusement and there is no getting around this." I'm sorry, but this is FALSE. OF COURSE the whales are being studied in captivity! We study EVERYTHING. Why would whales be different?

Can you point to any meaningful research that being done while they do tricks for food? Sorry, I can't.

FYI, a lot of the "degrading" tricks animals perform, they came up with themselves. It's a basic concept in training, that even fairly low-intelligence animals can do, which is "show me something I haven't seen before". A lot of tricks that dolphins can do, for instance, hopping around on their back fin, aren't shaped by the trainer's goal. It's something the dolphin thinks is cool, and offers as a behavior.

Why the need to train whales in the first place? They are an ocean dweller being confined to what amounts to a fish bowl.

I have to say, I've found this conversation pretty frustrating, because it doesn't seem like people are taking time to really consider the circumstances and educate themselves on these topics. Does nobody else here train their dogs? Those training techniques you're using were perfected on marine mammals. These arguments are totally emotional. Emotional is fine, but it can't be the entire basis for an opinion (IMO!). I'm okay with people disagreeing, but please, use some real information, not just your gut and a link to an article written by someone who hasn't deeply researched the topic.

As I said before, there is no equivalent to having whales kept in captivity. What do dogs have to do with this? Perhaps you should educate yourself on the uniqueness of this situation (captive whales). And, since dogs have been man's companion for thousands of years, I would suspect that we have learned training techniques along the way before adopting dolphin training methods.

If anyone is interested in an actual history of animal training, zoo keeping or marine biology, please feel free to PM me for book recommendations. I don't feel like what I'm saying is getting heard at all, so I'm out. Peace. I still love you guys. ;)