If he was captured from the wild he needs to be returned to the wild or the sanctuary. Wild animals in capitivty and with humans will always eventually end up not being pretty...I love watching these gorgeous animals perform but they shouldn't be done that way they need to stay in the wild...I feel for the girl that was killed but the job was dangerous when they put a wild animal with humans...

Donna

I was on a cruise about 4 years ago in Alaska. We saw a pod of orcas, and they followed us for MILES. It was beautiful to see them like that.

I have been to Sea World in Orlando--about 25 years ago I saw the Shamu show. I will admit that I enjoyed it. But knowing what I know now, I would never go back. If people stopped supporting these exhibits, they might let these beautiful animals go free.

So sad. As a little girl, my family would vacation in Panama City, FL., we stayed in a hotel across the street from the Gulf World building, a small show with dolphins, seals and other small ocean life. I can remember hearing what sounded like cries from the animals in the evenings.
I decided then I never wanted to see these type shows.:( and they don't belong there.

They are too grand to be forced to live in such a restrictive space.

Wow guys - I have to respectfully disagree with you.

First, I have to say how sad I feel for this lady's family. From what I understand she was a 16 year veteran working with whales. This is what she loved and she was one of the best at what she did. She must have believed what she was doing was right or she wouldn't have stayed that long.

Have you ever seen an accident? How many different eye witness accounts have been conflicting? To our surprise the majority of people never see the same thing when witnessing an accident or a tragedy. Angles of views - emotions (unexpecting - surprise - disbelief - fear) - interpretation of events - prior life experiences. It has been proved that you can take several people and put them in the same location and watch an accident and all of them will notice or see something different.

Case in point - Siegfried & Roy. People in the audience stated that the tiger attacked Roy. NOT TRUE! Living here in Las Vegas I believe that we hear more about this case than what's been put in the news. Roy survived this incident. His account, and make no mistake, he is totally able to disclose his thoughts, is that of protection. I'm sure some will say that he's only saying that to protect his tiger. Well, I'm sure that is true... BUT he also knows that tiger better than anyone else in the world. If that tiger had wanted to kill him - all he had to do is break his neck! The bite mark that was inflicted on Roy was one that is natural to cats. They pick their young up by the neck. It simply was not an attack. Roy knows those cats like no one else - especially that one. People in the audience witnessed actions that they were really unfamiliar with and have very little knowledge about. They interpreted the tiger's actions from their life experiences and not years of experience working with these animals.

Another case - a couple of months ago there was a fatal shooting at the Federal Bldg here - where my son works. Immediately following the attack there were several witness accounts that said there were up to eight people involved. Guess what? There was only one!

Wild - Domesticated
Wild or domesticated - we all have some natural instincts.
Don't get me wrong - I believe that wild animals are wild - but I also believe that they can and do make relationships with humans. Maybe it's just my beliefs but I see that many others are finding that out for themselves and documenting it. You can't document that if you don't have that animal near you to interact with.

Performances
I believe they do this for several reasons.
1) that is a result of learning to communicate with these animals
2) this is a means of comparing intelligence with us and other animals
3) this is a way to show what they have accomplished and bring in funding for continued research

Captivity
While research is done in the field, there are things that humans are unable to record and review about species unless they are watched and yes, sometimes experimented with and I don't mean cruelly.

Yes, in captivity they have used the time to find ways of breeding. At one point I believe these was were an endangered species (I could be wrong but the Panda is very good example of why they do this). If not for breeding in captivity we might not have the means to help this animal survive. Yes, man is a main reason for the extinction of most animals - all the more reason it should be us to have the means to make sure that doesn't happen. If there was a reason to be concerned about an animal becoming extinct - who do you think they would come to for help? You and me? They would go to the people who have been around them and documented what they have learned.

There is a zoo in Omaha, NE called the Henry Doorly Zoo. One of the best. It was small in the beginning but has grown immensely due to it's research there.
http://www.omahazoo.com/index.php?p=conservation&s=reproductivephysiology& u=globalprojects&t=tar

Breeding
I believe they bred this male for many reasons most of which are probably not understood by us. One may be that this is a huge male and has remained in captivity without too many medical issues. I'd be interested in learning more about it.

You're right in that genetics and temperament play a big part in breeding but I really don't see this like breeding pit bulls for fighting. This is one male. We don't know that this is his temperament as much as occurences in a prolong period of time. He's 30 years old.

Prior deaths
I'm not sure about the death in Canada. I haven't done too much reading on it but it sounds like there were 3 whales involved and that the trainer fell in the pool. I didn't see what injuries she had.

As for the man that fell in the tank after the park closed... there are several accounts on that. Some say that he died of hypothermia first. Some others say that once he fell in the tank that the whale drowned him. They found his body draped over the whale in the morning. Either way - the whale did not EAT the man. If this whale had really wanted to kill this guy why wouldn't he just eat him? They eat other whales and seals larger than a man.

In the case of this trainer, they reported this morning that she had drowned. They believe that the whale grabbed her by her ponytail and immersed her in the water. Again - tragic - but not an attack!

Sea World has extensive procedures and precautions in place - but accidents do happen. There were only 12 trainers allowed to interact with this whale and they were not suppose to swim with him. There are reports that the whales were aggitated the day prior and that this whale was acting up earlier that day by not following instructions.

There are dangers in a lot of jobs. My husband builds and works on elevators. Doesn't sound as dangerous as working with whales but guess what? There are probably more deaths from construction than by whales.

I do hope that Sea World decides to put this whale in a larger tank. They do need the space but I don't believe that he can be released into the wild. He's been in captivity too long.

I do hope that Sea World continues it's coarse to learn more and teach us about the animals in the sea.

Anyway, just my opinion. I had to give it. :D

Here are a few articles I have read taht express my thoughts much better than I can.:rolleyes:

Sea World Orca Attack on Trainer Demonstrates Human Cruelty - Bonnie Erbe (usnews.com)

PETA Speaks Out On SeaWorld Trainer Death - News Story - WFTV Orlando

I don't think this was a 'bad' whale that attacked. The stresses these animals are faced with are enough to make any one snap. Whales are one species that man just cannot provide an adequate environment for. I see no good reason for them to be kept in captivity, other than for amusement. Whatever research and info we may have gotten from keeping them should have been concluded long ago and there is no justification (to me) in keeping them in captivity.

:thumbup: :thumbup::thumbup:That says it all, IMO.

I agree :thumbup:.

In addition...if we feel we need/want information about this animals, we should continue to fund the folks who are going to their environment to observe them in their natural habitat {in a responsible way}.

Exactly, Ann. And, if anyone wants to just see whales, there are whale watch tours on both the east and west coasts.

It would be nice to see this incident serve as a catalyst to end the continuing captivity of these wondrous creatures.

I have to respectfully disagree with you too :)

1. it's very sad that she was killed and I'm not saying she didn't have affection for them, but perhaps she felt superior like other humans, thinking that she had the right to exploit these mammals

2. two other foolish people in my book bringing animals that BELONG in the wild to be tamed for the purpose of FAME and making MONEY

3. why do they need to bring them to the city? they should go live where they live and study them in their natural habitat.

4. All for the MONEY

5. some are suppose to die off, it's evolution, most die off because of too many human mistakes

6. he was bred to bring more whale into Sea World for making MONEY!!!

7. True! But what is up with bringing unnecessary danger by dealing with wild animals for fame...remember the crocodile hunter?

8. I hope not! Let My Mammals Go! :) LOL

9. True that! they all have been...whales, dolphins, sea lions, walruses, penguins, etc... and all the animals in the Zoos too.


Seriously though, you are very passionate about your beliefs but there is another side, an ugly side, to this animal abuse nightmare that you are not admitting.

I agree with cj125, and I HIGHLY, HIGHLY doubt that this woman believed herself to be superior to whales. It is unbelievably difficult to become a Sea World trainer, or to work with marine mammals at all. You must have overwhelming passion for your subject, you must have the patience of a saint, you must be an incredibly hard worker, and you must be willing to make no money. My guess is that this woman died doing what she loved, and she would not blame the whale.

I don't know if anyone has read "Lads Before The Wind" by Karen Pryor, but she worked at Sea World for many years, and pioneered their dolphin training program. I've heard similar comments made about her and the barbarity of trapping wild dolphins, it's like slavery, yadda yadda, but it's clear to me that she has nothing but the deepest love and respect for these animals. Training these animals is YOUR LIFE. It's not like working with lab rats.

I don't know much about orcas specifically, and perhaps they cannot adapt to life in captivity - it's certainly not a good sign if their lives are significantly shorter. I do believe that the trainers have the best perspective on these animals, since they spend the most time with them, and would not do this kind of work if they believed the animals were suffering.

I don't know if people realize the groundbreaking work that was done at Sea World in the 70s with animal training, and how it essentially forms the basis for all modern animal training today (of course, they were building on Skinner). Positive training *comes* from training marine mammals, because you can't use negative training on an animal that can just swim away from you. Those shows aren't just for human amusement - we've learned an incredible amount about how animals learn (and of course, since we are animals, how WE learn) from these kinds of progams. If anyone has ever recommended you clicker train your dog, they have Sea World to thank for pioneering this method.

I'm not a fan of circuses since I believe there the care of the animals is an afterthought. I also believe a lot of zoos used to be like this, but I think most zoos have come a long way in the past twenty years.

When anyone reads this I don't know how they could feel that keeping them in captivity is the right thing.:confused: Especially to appease human curiosity. Many animals are not to be under man's control, imo. Creatures that travel up to 100 miles a day certainly should not be kept in a large pool.:(

I'm not going to say I'm in favor of keeping orcas in captivity since I don't know much about them, but for me, the first two words bolded in red make me wonder: "Critics say...." What do the PROPONENTS say? That's not a balanced argument, so how can we judge? I am particularly suspicious about the contention that orcas never kill humans in the wild, because (1) I doubt it's true, and (2) under normal circs, humans don't interact with orcas, so it's not a meaningful comparison. When I feel that the argument is weak, it makes me suspicious of what's being left out. I've also read so much inspiring stuff about dolphin research that it's really hard for me to imagine that people who are so committed to dolphins don't give a hoot about orcas.

Of course, I could be wrong. It's happened once or twice before.

Just wanted to put this out there to think about too.:)
Source:WSPA
Captive dolphin programs often train dolphins to perform tricks that people equate with human responses and emotions. Movement of the pectoral flippers is taken to mean that the dolphins are waving a greeting. Vocalizing seems to indicate that the animals are “speaking” to the crowd. Or, the dolphins swim directly up to tourists entering the water, apparently signaling their enthusiasm to interact. In reality, these are highly unnatural behaviors that hold no meaning for the animal and offer no insight into their state of mind.
Dolphins are trained to perform these tricks through ‘operant conditioning'. For many animals this means that satisfaction of hunger is dependent on performing tricks; for others, hunger is deliberately induced so the trainer will be effective. Though a complete food portion is ultimately provided each day, the use of food as a training tool reduces some animals to little more than beggars. This is particularly obvious when a trainer enters the holding area, carrying a bucket of fish. The dolphin's eyes will remain fixed on the bucket, not on the trainer. It is easy to overlook this detail, as most audiences are watching and listening to the trainer. But in observing the dolphin's body language, it is apparent that food is the motivator, not affection for the trainer, playfulness or an affinity for the crowd.

Dolphins in captivity are not given the option to end interactions or performances when they would like to. They are trained to perform through ‘operant conditioning'. For many animals this means that satisfaction of hunger is dependent on performing tricks; for others, hunger is deliberately induced so the trainer will be effective. Though a complete food portion is ultimately provided each day, the use of food as a training tool reduces some animals to little more than beggars who perform in exchange for food.
Sometimes dolphins express their frustration through aggression either to people, other dolphins, or by self mutilation. People would not dream of putting their children or themselves in a cage with wolves, lions, or tigers. This natural caution is lost around dolphins. Dolphins (including those born in captivity) are large, powerful predators, perfectly capable of harming humans. Examples of dolphin aggression include pushing people into deeper water, biting, and head-jerking. Injury reports document broken bones, skin abrasions and other injuries.
The public is taken in by the dolphin's ‘smile' and assumes they are gentle, willing playmates. But make no mistake – these are wild animals and the smile is simply an anatomical quirk; it is not a reflection of the dolphin's emotional state.