We Have a Problem

[Islandcanine]

Any and All Thoughts welcome.
Here is the scenario:
My dog is throwing up bile in the mornings. Since January it has been four times in one week and fours days.
I am watching her diet etc.
Otherwise she is playful, eating and potty normal, sleeping normal and A+1 check at the Vet at the end of December.
haven't mentioned the trowing up yet because I thought it was diet related.

1. When we are out of town she doesn't do it.
2. This morning, I seen another bile throw up in the parking lot of building we reside in. Fresh. Either dog or cat.
3. Heard this morning another dog has began throwing up for past three to four days. Is said that "Last night" was last time.
Also said do has 15 sec. seizure yesterday and is in to see vet at 4pm ..
Asked if that dog threw up in back parking lot and answer was no. So is a different dog or cat.
4. Other dogs here, not throwing up.
5. A woman's indoor cats were reported to be throwing up bile, a lot.

Roxy started doing this as of October 2010.
Other than throwing up bile occasionally and always just first thing in the morning, she appears to be normal. No other signs of sickness.

First I thought diet. Not enough food in her belly at night when she goes to sleep. Have given her extra food nearing bed time. Some times she will puke in the morning and sometimes now. So do not think that she is starving to the point that she needs to throw up bile in the morning.
Second, thought allergy. I have been carefully watching her diet, as I cook for her. She eats the same as she does when she is out of town and doesn't throw up then.
Third, thought it was her tooth paste but she has the same brand and flavor when out of town and doesn't throw up then.

What are your first thoughts after reading this?

Since I have saw and learned this morning that it isn't just my dog, I am clutching straws.
A Virus? Worms? What else can be contracted from dog to dog that would cause this sort of belly upset? With no other signs of illness?

I do worm my dog once a year. Perhaps there is a specific parasite that needs zeroing in on?

Concerned and a bit worried. Thanx bunches in advance.

[Ellie May]

If she is doing it even when fed right before bed, then she needs to go back to the vet. Explain that you are concerned about a possible outbreak of something in your area. What brand of food are you feeding?

Was blood work done before? A fecal?

[Islandcanine]

Hi Crystal, thanks for your kind input.

I cook for my dog. She has primarily chicken, rice and carrots in the morning, on her food and organic home raised raw beef with grated zucchini at night for dinner. Vegies at dinner can change or be added being Yams (cooked), peas, carrots, turnip, squash and loves to snack on centers from romaine lettuce.

Roxy free feeds on Royal Canin, Yorkie 28. Been wanting to switch so to avoid a couple fillers there and the chemical preservative in the "fish meal" that is an ingredient. When I try to get her on something else she will eat it for two maybe three days and then back to the R.C. I let her choose and she always chooses the R.C. over anything else.
I like the 28% protein factor too since I cook for her.
Sometimes she will have shrimp, ocean salmon or turkey. Sometimes marrow from bones. I also give her blue buffalo wet food mixed in with her cooked food or on it's own as a switch up.
Sometimes instead of rice I will give her rolled oats (both cooked of course).

Fact is her diet has been the same going on three years and is exactly the same when I am away from home, working and always staying at the same place and she eats the exact same things. Same chicken and beef sources and doesn't get sick then. It is just when we are at home.
We play tricks and things with her favorite home cooked cookies, made with brown rice flour before bedtime, when we are out of town too and she doesn't throw up in the mornings there at all.

I have been conscientiously trying to keep her diet and activity the same as when we are out of town so to try to pin point what is going on.

I agree that
1. There is some kind of outbreak in our area.
2. That she will likely need a full work up a.s.a.p.
No blood work or fecal ever done because Roxy has always been in awesome health and so not requiring in any depth testing.
Likely vet will order it if she feels necessary.
I will voice my concerns. I will call around the other vet offices to see if there are any reports.
If it were some weird outbreak and we don't All treat our dogs for a virus or a parasite or whatever ..
how will we ever combat it?

I do worm my dog once a year. Perhaps there is a specific parasite that needs zeroing in on?

Apparently dogs can contract parasites that can cause vomiting, simply from the grass in dog parks etc.
She only does it when we are at home, not when we are out of town.
We are here and there about 1/2 and 1/2.

No blood in stool, urine normal, no diarrhea. No worms in vomit. Vomit is yellowish in color, clear and sometimes frothy. Nothing more than a bile vomit and always first thing in the morning, on occasion. Not every morning.

What are your thoughts on environmental causes? Thinking possibly mold in the building at home since she is not throwing up when out of town and absolutely no change in diet at either place.
She does get a bit more centers from romaine and carrots when out of town because my Dad gives them too her pretty much everyday.

Thoughts? Please and Thank you.

[ritapatt]

Ziva was throwing up bile at 3 o clock just about every afternoon, than would stop for a few days than start again. Nothing else seemed wrong- I thought empty tummy too. I was getting ready to call the vet for an appt. and mentioned it to my groomer- "too much greens" she said- well I took away the green veggies and no more bile incidents! she can eat 2 green beans but not 3-4, then she throws up the next day! Maybe you can try this.

[roseslevi]

It does seem strange that it only happens to her when she is at your building ...not out of town. So unless it is a huge coincidence, it is something in or around your building? Do they exterminate on a monthly basis? Spray foundations anything like that?
I don't think it is diet because you seem so consistent with what/how you feed.
I would talk to the vet and tell him exactly what you have told us...it does seem very odd. Hope the vet has the answers for you.

[Islandcanine]

This is the most awesome place ever! Thank you people, so much for your input!
ritapat: I agree. I have been doing a lot of reading & I think you are absolutely correct. Some hard to digest carbs can cause the throwing up bile.
Here was a good article: Ten Reasons Carbs hurt your dog
Ten Reasons Why Carbohydrates Hurt Your Dog

roseslevi: No we do not use pesticides around here. We don't even have chlorine in our water!! I give Roxy distilled water anyway but no sprays or anything weird like that either.
We have brand new carpet in most common areas of our apartment & linoleum otherwise. I wash floors with vinegar and water & wash Roxy's bedding, cloths & toys in a natural detergent.

It is weird that it happens at home but not out of town. I called and checked, just to be sure. In case the worry was blocking my memory. The word is "No, you have not mentioned any incidents of Roxy throwing up when you are here". Which I would if she did. My Dad loves his little Grand Dog and told me firmly to "start cutting some of that stuff out". Meaning harder to digest carbs.
A smart man who has been correct before so I listen & heed his warnings.

I also called around to three vet offices locally to ask if they have had any influx of throwing up bile complaints.
One said No. Second one said yes, all the time.. that dogs are known to throw up bile more when it snows because they eat it..
The third one, where Roxy's off Island vet visits once a week said they would call back after consulting with the vet. This is what I was told:
There are no parasitic outbreaks in the area. That environmental contributors are unlikely that it is mostly likely due to gastrointestinal upset, that it is something that she is injesting. They recommended giving her an anti acid in the morning.
I don't give Roxy anything like that unless her vet has examined her first and she recommends it.
Roxy sees her vet when we are out of town even though her vet visits our area once a week. Just in case, I had Roxy's file faxed over so it is on file. If Roxy throws up again between now & when the vet is due in, we will make an appointment & start with blood work.

After taking hours of reading in, talking to the vet as well as my Mom & Dad, I decided to make some dietary changes feeling that is the best place to start. My Mom being a nurse told me from the start that it is something I am feeding her.

I wish I were a nutritionist!
Okay so no more yams, turnips etc. No more raw beef either. All meat will be boiled until just cooked so to not damage the amino acids. Easing up on the brown rice & rolled oats a bit. Measuring everything instead of eyeballing it & keeping a log of what she eats, how much as well as her exercise etc. Usually Roxy gets 40% Protein 30% Grain and 30% vegies.

Instead of two meals a day & free feed on her kibble, she is now getting four meals a day, just smaller portions & spread out. Most importantly, a snack before bed time.
So regular breakfast time, snack, dinner time and snack with maybe one treat in between, before dinner time.
I noticed a difference in her on her last walk last night. Far more perkier. Seemed happier all round. Slept good (she is still in bed sleeping) so now I just wait & see what happens when she is out for her first walk this morning, which is usually when she throws up if she is going to.
From watching her yesterday, those two extra snacks made a big difference in her behavior alone. Adding more protein, lessening the carbs. My gut says I have nailed it. I sure hope so.

Will be back if she throws up again.

[107barney]

I think starting with a good vet workup to include a full blood profile is in order. Changing the diet as you are could be implicated in the conditions your dog is faced with.

Good luck!

[jencar98]

If everything checks out with the vet, I would continue to give a small snack before bedtime. A couple of my yorkies will throw up bile in the mornings occasionally if they have empty stomachs. They are not big eaters first thing in the morning either, so I always give them a few kibble when we first get up. Then they will have their meal an hour so later.

[ritapatt]

Thank you for the attached article on Carbs- puts the issue into a better perspective for me. I have a wheaten terrier that has been soo much better on the high protein-no grain foods that are available now- but she seems to need some greens (if not she eats grass) that's why Ziva was eating them.

[boopster]

Did I read brand new carpet? Does it have that new carpet smell? There are some chemicals in new carpeting that take time to wear off, and if you can smell it you are ingesting it. Same thing with new paint that has an odor. Wonder if it might be wise to limit her exposure to the newly carpeted areas.

[rtsmichele]

I'm betting new carpet is the culprit. When was it installed. New carpet, new paint and glue used in installation can offgas horribly.

[roseslevi]

Originally Posted by boopster

Did I read brand new carpet? Does it have that new carpet smell? There are some chemicals in new carpeting that take time to wear off, and if you can smell it you are ingesting it. Same thing with new paint that has an odor. Wonder if it might be wise to limit her exposure to the newly carpeted areas.

I think I would try this as well.

[Islandcanine]

Thank you ppl. Such sweet pictures of your furbabes!
Actually other than this occasional bile throw up, Roxy's vet visits, on a regular basis check out A+1, like I previously mentioned. Roxy has had the same vet since day one as well. She also has a Eastern & Western medicine doctor as well.

107barney: I'm not really changing her diet. It is exactly the same but minus a few of the harder to digest carbs as well as breaking up her two cooked meals a day, into four so she is eating less but more often with one before bedtime.

Today she is spry, spunky, cuddly, playful, alert and motivated. Normal B.M.'s, no upset tummy and no vomit of bile this morning.
I agree that the option is there to do a full work up, depending on what the Roxy's doctor recommends.
I am almost sure that Roxy's vet would tell me to do what I did & if there are any more incidents to then bring her in for some blood work.
If Roxy were vomiting profusely I would rush her to emerge without question! However, Since Roxy's vet isn't in town until Tuesday, I will take the wait & see approach until then. If Roxy vomits between now & then, she will be in to see her Vet first thing Tuesday morning. Absolutely. That is why I had Roxy's file faxed over to this office yesterday, since I wont be back out of town for a bit yet & just in case.

jencar98: I strongly feel her upset tummy was due to too many hard to digest carbs as well as not enough food in her tummy from the time she eats dinner to the time she wakes in the morning. The extra snack before bed & an additional feeding mid day has made improvements. I noticed a big difference in her at her last walk, last night. She loved her snack before bedtime too.

ritapat: Was a good read for sure and glad that you liked the article. Opened my eyes as well. I still give Roxy vegetables, just the ones that are easier for her to digest & increased the protien, lessened the brown rice and rolled oats, depending on if it her breakfast or dinner.. Roxy's favorite greens are the centers from Romain Lettuce.

boopster, rtsmichele & rtsmichele: Thank you for your input regarding the new carpet.
I understand what you are saying and agree. It can be quite smelly sometimes although the carpet wasn't glued. They use pieces of wood attached to the concrete. Put down underlay and then carpet, stretch and pound down, onto the nails sticking out of the small pieces of wood set in along the edges. Even when we first came back into town after it was freshly laid, two years ago, I did not detect any strange odors that could be offensive to Roxy, to the point it would make her sick. She seemed fine with it. Were no adverse reactions.

I do not detect an odor from it at all & do use throw rugs. I vacuum at least weekly. Carpeting is an issue though, that I do concern myself with when we are visiting etc. I do not let Roxy walk in the halls of the building either, unless she has her shoes or boots on and even then, since she is so close to the ground, I just rather carry her until we get outside. I am very fussy about the surfaces that she treds on.
As well as fresh paint odors, air fresheners, like those glade things, people who wear perfume or smoke.. the list goes on. I am extra careful to avoid exposure to such for Roxy.

I am almost sure it has to do with the ratio of vegies to meat, the type of vegetables & the frequency of feeding. I feel that having her little belly with some food it in helps her have a nice cuddly sleep so to wake energetic as usual, without being faced with what was probably hunger pangs. Poor little thing.

Hopefully all will be well over the week end. Haven't heard what the outcome of the vet visit for the dog I mentioned about in initial post. He went to the vet yesterday.

[Vinniedoggy]

Interesting. Vinnie will sometimes throw up a little bile early in the morning (like around 4 or 5 AM) and I usually have found that giving him some treats right before bed stops it from happening. But, sometimes he still pukes in the morning and I've found in those instances it's because he has to poop really bad (Vinnie will not, under any circumstances, poop in the house). I say this because on the mornings when he does this, as soon as my feet hit the floor, he's at the door and when we get out, he will have a HUGE poop.

[Islandcanine]

I have read that it takes 12 hours for an adult dog to digest a meal, to the point the tummy is empty.
I have also read that some protein is a good choice to include in the snackl before bedtime, rather than just a treat say.

Roxy is completely house-trained as well She will not go potty in the house and she will wake me at whatever hour, when we are sleeping if she has to go out side. Rare but has happened. Usually when our walks are all screwed up because of major snow.
Otherwise her sleeping, walking and potty times are all down pat.

Usually Roxy will eat dinner at 5:30. Her last walk (in winter) is 7:30 and her bedtime is 8:30. I can set my clock by her almost.
So if she doesn't have a snack before bed to get her through until she gets up which is usually anywhere between 530 and 730, depending on schedule.. (Sometimes I let her sleep in), that's 12 to 14 hours. Her belly would be completely empty and then some if her last feed is at 530 pm and she doesn't get up until 730am. If she snacks before bed at 8, by the time she gets up, it's been 9-11 hours which = Good To Go.

Useful info to know if your dog is throwing up bile and is possibly due to an empty tummy.

I think the type of bedtime snack is also important. Must be significant. Protein helps induce a good nights rest as well.

Originally Posted by Vinniedoggy

Interesting. Vinnie will sometimes throw up a little bile early in the morning (like around 4 or 5 AM) and I usually have found that giving him some treats right before bed stops it from happening. But, sometimes he still pukes in the morning and I've found in those instances it's because he has to poop really bad (Vinnie will not, under any circumstances, poop in the house). I say this because on the mornings when he does this, as soon as my feet hit the floor, he's at the door and when we get out, he will have a HUGE poop.