collar, harness, training collar question

[Iris]

First of all I hope you're all enjoying the holidays. I wish you and your families all the best.

I read on a post that yorkies should wear harnesses not collars. And especially since next week I'll be taking Tiko to have his trachea x-rayed since he seems to gasp once in a while. He's been wearing a collar since I first got him, he's now 5 months. I've had a lot of trouble getting him to walk on the leash, he starts biting it, he tries to bite the collar whenever I'm putting it on or taking if off. I just enrolled him in a training class, and he's required to wear a training collar, which can really tighten around his neck. He's only been to class once so far and he nearly choked and was gasping. I've since been using it at home for training but very carefully. What do you suggest? If you've taken your yorkies to training classes what have you used. Of if you've trained them yourselves what have you used. Do your yorkies go crazy biting their leashes. Any tips?

[orinskye]

i think harnesses are the way to go with these guys.... big dogs should have teh training collar, but i would never put one of them on my yorkie ...... if you train them to walk with a "loose leash" i guess a collar would be okay, but ive heard so many horror stories about walking them on a collar....... besides, my yorkie has a cough so i must walk him on a harness.... i think those collars for training classes are ridiculous for small dogs, is this kind of collar required? or is it optional?....... i have never taken any dog of mine to the training schools, i prefer to train myself, so i am a little curious about their "rules"...

[fasteddie]

Yes, please use a harness! It can be really bad to use a leash on them because their necks are just so small and a small yank can hurt them. Make sure the harness is tight, but not too tight, and they shouldn't be biting it. You could also spray some Bitter Apple or something they don't like on the harness so they don't bite it.

And the more they wear it and use it, the more they will enjoy it. Yoda actually puts his head down now when I get the harness out, because he just KNOWS we're going somewhere fun and he gets to see people or do something outside, which he likes.

Good luck!

[Maddie-Rudy-Mom]

I would definitley use a harness on him, small dogs trachea can get damaged with a collar. I think you can train him just a good with a harness. My two never have had a collar on, they play to ruff with each other. When we walk they pull and there is no pressure place on there trachea with a harness. Hope Tiko's x-ray goes good, my two would never lay still enough to get it done, they are brats lol......Cindy

[yorkipower]

Unless I want a pulling action, I do not walk a dog in a harness. If I'm concerned about a trachea issue, which is a just concern with small dogs, I'd rather opt for a halti or gentle leader than a harness. I use harness for tracking or jogging or when I want the dog to pull again me. With a harness, you have very little control, its like driving without power steering. Many dogs learn some awful lead habits when they are put into a harness at an early age. A lot of people compound this problem by using those Flexi leashes to which they can not grab on in a pinch without getting a nasty burn. A simple six inch lead (leather or cotton are my first choice since they are comfortable to hold and do not cause rope burn) and a halti or gentle leader for a dog who had trachea issues!

[Iris]

We have to go to the class tonight. I will ask them if it's an absolute requirement, maybe if I explain the possibility of a trachea problem they'll make an exception or if not return my money.

Cindy, it's a relieve to know that my Tiko is not the only brat around, he's a wiggler, I have so much trouble grooming him and getting him to behave.

[yorkipower]

When you say he's required to wear a training collar - what kind of collar are we talking about?
- leather buckle
- martingale
- choke- chain or nylon
- prong

I would NEVER use the last two on a toy dog with a coughing problem and I see no reason to use a prong on a dog less than 10 pounds – ever (prongs are generally used on big dogs who will pull against a choke or with handlers who do not know how to use a choke properly. In the right hands, they can actually be more humane). Beside the jerk and pull method of training is SO outdated and out of favor with most trainers. I hope that's not what they are asking you to do? You can get much better results in heal training with a target stick for instance. Most little dogs, especially toy terriers, don't do well being forced to do anything anyhow. They were bred to be independent thinkers and are not Golden Retrievers that can be jerked around a ring and still wag their tails!

I once went to a local training class to observe. My dog and I have been competing in agility for three years and I wanted to see if competitive obedience would be something we would also enjoy. I walked out of the class in shock and horror. I saw two people push a Papillion down to the ground with the palm of their hands to teach the down command (a simple trick using a doggie treat would have accomplished the same thing in a much more human and efficient manner!). I saw people walking around in a circle jerking and pulling not praising their dogs. I've since then found other places where only positive training techniques are used. I'd be VERY careful where I took my dog for obedience lessons! Trust your instincts. If it doesn’t feel right, leave.

A leather buckle collar when properly used on a young, healthy dog, shouldn't cause him to gasp unless he already has a collapsed trachea. So my next question - does your dog cough and have breathing problems when he is not wearing a collar? If so, get your vet to check him out ASAP. I’ve had several dogs with collapsed tracheas (Poodles). All of them developed the condition later in life.

[bettyeanne]

I would never put anything around Toto's neck! We too had a problem trying to get her used to her little harness .... she would flatten out on the floor and we absolutely could not get her to stand! When we had the problem with her darting out the door, my husband found her a wonderful personal trainer who came and worked with her at our home. He was like magic! He had her trotting up and down the driveway in one short session like she was in the show ring!! She always walks on our left and always at a pace that leaves a little slack in the leash. She doesn't stop and sniff and explore ... those tiny, short little legs are just like they are on a mission! If we slow up a little and the leash gets a little taught, all we have to do is quietly say "Stay with me" and she matches our pace! These are the smartest little creatures I have ever seen ... I would be very careful who and how they are trained. Just like Yorkiepower said ... trust your instincts ... if it doesn't feel right, take your baby and leave! Good luck ... let us know how it goes!

[Maddie-Rudy-Mom]

When Lucky was young we enrolled in a training class and she wouldn't do most of the commands and the trainer said sometimes you have to pull harder to get there attention. Lucky just wouldn't do it and the trainer got pissed because I wouldn't be more forceful with her. We quite the class after the second class. Lucky is the best behaved dog you could ever want. She walks good on a leash and with stay in the front yard and won't even move if I tell her to stay even if a dog is walking by. She is so well behaved Sometime a class environment is not for all dogs. she is 15 years old now and still is a angel. Maddie minds very well, Rudy is an whole other story he has a mind of his own......................Cindy

[Iris]

It's a choke chain that they want, but I spoke to them before class last night about the possible trachea problem and they agreed to let him use a regular soft collar.


"Beside the jerk and pull method of training is SO outdated and out of favor with most trainers. I hope that's not what they are asking you to do? "

Yes, this is their training method, I thought they would be a good idea sincce I got their address from the AKC WEBSITE. They ask you to praise them a lot during training but if they don't want to walk you are supposed to pull and jerk. Last night was our second class and my husband and I are having second thoughts about the whole thing. It's like boot camp for dogs! Tiko was so scared being there he was crawling out of his skin. BUT I DON'T PULL ON HIM THE WAY THEY EXPECT YOU TO.

"You can get much better results in heal training with a target stick for instance."

What is a trarget stick, do I just asK for a target stick at the pet supply store?

How can I find a good trainer, and are they very expensive?

[Iris]

[QUOTE=bettyeanne]my husband found her a wonderful personal trainer who came and worked with her at our home. He was like magic! He had her trotting up and down the driveway in one short session like she was in the show ring!! She always walks on our left and always at a pace that leaves a little slack in the leash. She doesn't stop and sniff and explore ...

How did you find this trainer and how expensive was he?

[Iris]

[QUOTE=Maddie-Rudy-Mom]When Lucky was young we enrolled in a training class and she wouldn't do most of the commands and the trainer said sometimes you have to pull harder to get there attention. Lucky just wouldn't do it and the trainer got pissed because I wouldn't be more forceful with her. We quite the class after the second class. Lucky is the best behaved dog you could ever want. She walks good on a leash and with stay in the front yard and won't even move if I tell her to stay even if a dog is walking by. She is so well behaved Sometime a class environment is not for all dogs. she is 15 years old now and still is a angel.

How did you train her?

[yorkipower]

http://www.mightymitedoggear.com/images/targetstick.jpg
Unless your dog already has a pulling problem AND you’ve tried other methods already, I do not see why you need to use a choke chain with a young Yorkie. I have only one Yorkie I use a choke chain with and ONLY under certain circumstances. He is a very high drive and has a tendency to go after big dogs and to chase things – so if I know I’m going to be in a high-trafficked place like an indoor dog show or at the vets, I use a choke ATTACHED to the ring of his REGULAR leather collar. It’s my “emergency brake.” He’s only 8 pounds and trained to Masters Agility, there’s no reason to need to depend on it all the time AND it was NOT the way I taught him to heel (I’ll get there in a bit).

I am a bit concerned that your class uses choke chains as a default. If a dog does not need a choke chain, why use it? They do have their purposes but in the wrong hands, they can also be torture devices. I cringe when I see people walking down the street with the choke chain upside down or backwards. If you told me your pup was a bullmastiff and you are only 100 pounds, I might understand better. Or even if your dog were a rescue with behavioral issues and dog behaviorist told you needed it. In your case, it seems to be overkill and too much to ask of a young dog anyhow. When you are starting out with a young dog, less is always more. Taking things slow and gentle works out to reap bigger rewards in the end (a great book, emphasizing this point is “Building Blocks for Performance”).

You could say there’s a bit of a dog training war going on – old school vs. new school. “New school’ has actually been around a long time but only in the past 10 years or so, applied to dogs. Dolphins, for example, have almost always been trained “new school.” Karen Pryor wrote her book “Don’t Shoot the Dog” applying the training techniques she learned at Sea World to dogs. Choke chains go along with the dominance and negative reinforcement training method. Target sticks and clicker training is linked with operant and classical conditioning techniques (which started all the way back with Pavlov) to “condition” the dog with “positive” reinforcement.

Getting around all this mumbo-jumbo what I mean is just like a parent teaching a kid to behave you can narrow your choices down to two basic options: physical or mental punishment in the way of sending them to their room for a time out, saying no, taking away privileges, or more extremely, a smack, etc. All things that make the behavior they performed associated with a negative consequence, thereby reducing their desire to do it again; or conversely, reinforcing good behavior with praise, treats, special privileges so that they choose to do the good behavior over the bad as their preferred option.

Tiko was so scared being there he was crawling out of his skin. BUT I DON'T PULL ON HIM THE WAY THEY EXPECT YOU TO.

That’s how I felt when I went to the class I described (also incidentally through AKC. Wonder if it was the same class? ) BOOT CAMP FOR DOGS. Quite frankly, obedience training, (unless it’s a matter of life and death like my example of my dog who thinks Rottwielers should shake in their boots upon his arrival,) SHOULD be FUN NOT BOOT CAMP! If you really want a dog to do well in obedience, especially a toy terrier, you had better make it fun because they aren’t’ going to tolerate long term abuse. Some just shut down which sounds like what yours did, others make become snappish, or wired up.

Now for a brief intro to the target stick:

I won’t be able to go into much detail here because there are books written on the subject. I strongly advise you to check out some of these books or watch a video. Since I’ll be summarizing, I’m going to skip on some parts and speed up the
”action” a bit.

A target stick can be almost anything: a dowel or a tree branch will do. If you want to get fancy, both Karen Pryor ( http://www.clickertraining.com/home/ ) and Gary Wilkes ( http://www.clickandtreat.com/ ) make target sticks (check my website for more info on that), but it isn’t really necessary to buy a stick. The point is just to have a pointer to which your dog will touch his nose. Gary also has a great video in which he goes through, step by step training with a target stick (http://ssl.securewebserver.com/click...egory_Code=BAV ) and Karen has a video where she gets a Golden who wasn’t heeling for its owner to heel in one session! Pryor has a number of videos on clicker and target training and I can’t recall which one it was but if you go to her website and click on the “contact” info, someone on her staff should be able to identify which video it is. What I am going to explain is based on what she does in this video.

To simplify this (since this post is getting SO long): You show the tip of the stick to your dog. Your dog’s natural instinct when exploring the world is, of course, to sniff. So inevitably, he will touch his nose to the tip of the stick. You “mark” the moment when the nose touches the stick with some sort of positive reinforcement, if you know what clicker training is and how to use it, you can click the behavior, if not immediate praise (“GOOD DOG”) your dog and reward with a cookie not more than a second after. Do this several more times until you see that light bulb go off in your dog’s heard: “hey when I touched this stick with my nose I get a cookie!” If he is doing well this far, next start moving the stick around his head and waiting for him to turn to touch the stick. If he does that well, I’d quit there for the day and resume the next. You’ll find that your dog catches on faster with short, positive training sessions, a few times a day, as opposed to long drawn out sessions.

Following day, put your leather collar on your dog and his lead. Hold the lead VERY lightly so that there’s tons of slack and you are putting no pressure on the lead at all (this is just so he associates being on a leash with the exercise, if you do this right, you wont NEED a leash anymore). Hold your stick in your left hand (assuming you have your dog in heel position) across your hip, tip facing downwards just above and in front of your dogs nose. He’ll lean forward and touch the stick, again praise praise reward reward. Take a step, he’ll probably do the same and again touch the stick. Again praise praise praise. You see what is happening? Your dog will be heeling almost immediately! I’d quit there for the day.

Next day you up the anti. Now walk two steps and see if your dog will follow and touch the stick. If that works, walk three steps, then four. This becomes a matter of “variable reinforcement” You’re going to start asking more and more of your dog, and more repetitions before reinforcement. The point is to teach your dog to walk at your side with you and not to be dependant on food and the stick for the rest of his life, right? Once you can do a full circle, down and back, start raising the stick upwards so that your dog can no longer touch it with his nose but has to strain to touch it. When he looks up at the stick – praise him – he no longer needs to touch it. Now he’s giving you heeling with attention. You are aiming for him to look up in the direction of the stick and keep his nose in place. Where his head is, that is where his body will go.

At this point, you begin to fade out the stick by sending it higher and higher in your hand until, finally it is no longer visible (this takes about a month so don’t rush it). Eventually, you’ll get to the point where your hand will still be in the position where it was in the beginning, as though you are holding a stick, but there will be no stick. Keep your hand there. This going to be your cue for “heel.” If your dog begins to have trouble with this exercise, go back to an earlier stage where he was OK and work from there again. Eventually, your dog will learn to look up to this hand as he heels (for little dogs its actually the hip bone, but close enough). Now add your command “heel.” And voila, your dog will probably be heeling without the need of even a leash (let alone a choke collar!).

If you don’t want to use a target stick, you can still do this kind of training simply using the clicker. Here is a great website I found which uses a similar technique with attention and clicker training: http://www.clickerlessons.com/aheeling.html

If this seems too difficult, or if the school (should you choose to go back!) is anti-conditioning training, I'd ask if they would be OK with a halti or gentle leader. ( http://www.jjdog.com/Merchant2/merch...dCollarsGENLHC ) Some dogs don't do well with these some do great. It's a kinder option to the choke collar and it does have that immediate effect. However, neither collar is made to be jerked on. If the dog pulls against them, they do the "check" for you.

Lastly, if you are looking for a good trainer, you have a number of options. To begin with, where do you live?

[bettyeanne]

[QUOTE=Iris]

Originally Posted by bettyeanne

my husband found her a wonderful personal trainer who came and worked with her at our home. He was like magic! He had her trotting up and down the driveway in one short session like she was in the show ring!! She always walks on our left and always at a pace that leaves a little slack in the leash. She doesn't stop and sniff and explore ...

How did you find this trainer and how expensive was he?

My husband found him in the yellow pages, I believe. We were in Lake Charles, LA at the time. He has a "boot camp" where he trains service dogs and is also a "Dog Whisperer" ... now, I have always been a "doubting Thomas" about this, but whether he whispered to Toto or not, I don't know! All I do know is that he was like magic with her. He works with larger dogs and felt that the "one on one" would be better for her and would have introduced her to a group later on. Unfortunately, we were sent somewhere else and left Lake Charles ... we certainly regretted not getting more training. He was also "training" us! The charge for us was $30 per hour and worth every cent!!

[Goddess537]

I have been reading your posts which are very informative. I am so glad I came across this message board. I just got my first yorkie, Chloe, 2 days ago. She's a little thing, just about 12 weeks old. I am wondering at what age you all started training your pups at?

Jessica, NJ