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08-07-2008, 07:42 PM | #1 |
Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2008 Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 108
| Need advice? Okay, so I am at my wits end and very frustrated and really do not know which direction to go in? I have two Bichon Frise sisters 7 yrs old. They are really hyper, but sweet little dogs always together all the time. They are not allowed to run all thru the house but have thier own area and access to the huge back yard whenever they want. Sometimes I let them run around the house but not too often as they get so bouncy and hyper that they would just piddle from excitement so this is what we do for them and it has always worked fine. In June I picked up my new yorkie female, Dixie who is now almost four months old and my twin daughters purchased a male yorkie Teddy, who is from a different litter and is now 3 and a half months old. I am trying very hard to get the bichons used to the new puppies. Introducing them slowing by the vets recommendation of putting a muzzle on the bichons for no more than 20 to 30 minutes at a time and letting them on a leash around the puppies so they can smell them, even move them around in play but not have the ability to bite them or put thier mouths over them. They have never shown aggresiveness in the past to bite anyone! So I have been doing what the vet recommended and the bichons hate the muzzles. If I take them off and have them on a taunt leash they seem fine until they are close to the puppies. One bichon is worse than the other. When they are in the house they are within sight of each other and seem to want to play. The puppies are sure playful. If I take the puppies on the deck and the bichons are in the yard and cannot get to them they act like they want to play. But the problem is that the few times I have let the bichons off the leash they dive for the yorkies and really want to hurt them. Thankfully the couple of times this has happened we have been able to get the bichon off the yorkie but it really frustrates me and makes me mad as well. I love my bichons and my yorkies. I want them to be friends but it really bothers me that I see such nastiness and aggresiveness in these bichons that I never saw before. I know it is natural for them to be territorial and to want to let the puppies know that I was here first but I really believe they would tear them up if they got the chance. I won't have it. My daughters and my husband says to take the bichons to a rescue but I won't do that unless it is a total last resort. Any suggestions on what on earth I can do to make this situation better. All the dogs are absolutly wonderful but these yorkies are little, not even 4 pds and I don't want them to get hurt. The bichons are about 17 pds each. I am really torn as to what to do next. I have been searching the internet trying to find out from the dog experts how to handle this. Help |
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08-07-2008, 09:14 PM | #2 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 213
| If it were me, I would look into a dog behaviorist/trainer. Someone that specializes in aggression. This could really help, if you find the right professional. I definitely understand your frustration, but if it were me I would refuse to take the bichons to a rescue. I would keep them separate forever if I had to. This is just my opinion, but I would exhaust every resource before getting rid of my other dogs. |
08-07-2008, 09:28 PM | #3 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 213
| CES Dog Training, Inc. This is in your area.... They are NADOI cert. (Nadoi.org) Good Luck and I hope they can learn to get along |
08-07-2008, 09:28 PM | #4 |
Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
Posts: 12,693
| Since you mentioned your Bichons hate the muzzles and you only make them wear it when they are going to be with the yorkies, is it possible they have made a negative association? Being around the yorkies= having to wear a muzzle + being uncomfortable? Just a thought! Good luck!!!! |
08-08-2008, 04:16 AM | #5 |
Donating YT 10K Club Member | You need to determine if what you are seeing is truly aggression. The two bichons already consider themselves a pack. You are introducing an outsider. There is a peeking order that needs to be established. They work this out. Ramsey is the oldest at my house...and sometimes she is not interested in Reggie's puppyness. She lets him know in the only way she knows how...it isn't aggressive...but she does make growly noises and sometimes mouths him. It sounds worse than it is. I have seen actual fights between she and Reese...there is no mistaking the difference. The bichons are older and sometimes it's harder to introduce a puppy to an older dog. You need to re-assure the bichons they have not been replaced nor their status in the family lowered. With Ramsey....she was first. She got the first treat, she was greeted first, she was allowed out first, she was assured her status hadn't decreased. Our attention was focused more on her than either of the other two that came after. Do understand dogs at play...play rough. Females are sometimes difficult in the same household too. I would introduce the bichons individually under close supervision...without muzzles to one yorkie at a time. We introduced Reggie to Ramsey and Reese...he was happy to see them...they were not so happy to see HIM. To be real honest...it bothers me that you are considering getting rid of the bichons...who have been in your home for 7 years instead of the puppies.
__________________ Deb, Reese, Reggie, Frazier, Libby, Sidney, & Bodie Trace & Ramsey who watch over us www.biewersbythebay.com |
08-08-2008, 04:34 AM | #6 |
No Longer a Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oliver Springs, TN
Posts: 683
| I have two Bichons, a male and a female. I have had several other dogs come and go in my home and they have never shown any aggression on any occasion. They have interacted with guinea pigs, my little 1.9 lb ferret, even a chinchilla and a tiny mouse. My female wants to mother any little animal and my male only wants to play. Your two Bichons are very unusual for the breed. Please get a trainer to work with you and them. You've had them seven years and would consider letting them go because of new dogs in the home? What if you get rid of them and one of the Yorkies shows aggression toward the other one? Then get rid of that Yorkie? It sounds like the two Bichons have formed a pack and rule things. You need to become the leader and control everything, food, treats, attention, with all the dogs. Nothing In Life Is Free is a good method of training. |
08-08-2008, 05:49 AM | #7 | |
YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: May 2008 Location: odense, fyn, denmark
Posts: 9
| Quote:
When I went to get my second dog I took my first dog with me - to see if they would like eachother | |
08-08-2008, 06:10 AM | #8 |
Lovin' my R & R Donating Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Middleton, Idaho
Posts: 2,152
| Do you exercise your Bichons? I find it interesting that a seven-year-old dog cannot have full run of the house. You say they get so excited they start piddling? Do they not get attention or daily walks? Have you watched Ceasar Milan? He makes it extremely clear that many behavioral issues are caused by lack of exercise and pent up energy, which this sounds like. Have you tried to walk all four of them together, as a pack? I know you said they have access to a large backyard, but dogs need disciplined exercise (i.e. walks, hikes, agility training, etc). Self exercise just wont do. Just a thought...
__________________ Amanda 's Ranger & Ryder |
08-08-2008, 07:43 AM | #9 | |
Missing Yoshi Everyday! Donating Member | Quote:
__________________ Yoshi Mei Ling Ting Ting Ting Ki Sun Hye Yukio Kioshi | |
08-08-2008, 08:00 AM | #10 |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Packer Country!!!
Posts: 666
| I have a 4 1/2 year old Bichon and a 8 month old yorkie puppy. Do you give the pups freedom in the house but keep the Bichons seperated in the house? I can't imagine a Bichon not having the freedom in the house. Bichons need to be with you all the time, they are very family/people dogs. Bichons need to blitz and burn up their energy. I was worried about the interaction between my two. Chloe' is pretty good with Myah most of the time. She will growl and sounds like she is going to kill Myah, but is just putting Myah in her place. They need to work out their pack order in your home, but won't be able to do that if they are seperated and only put together when the bichons are muzzled. I think the bichons are resentful of the new pups as they are getting special attention and the bichons are having to put a muzzle on when they are around. I feel bad that you would think of getting rid of them just because you got new puppies. I know you family member are thinking this, but it isn't fair to the other two that have been part of your life for 7 years. You are in a tough spot right now. How much time a day are the Bichons with the family during the day? How much time a dary are you with the pups? Have you given the Bichon more attention since the pups are there or less time? If you are spending most of the time with the pups and not giving the Bichons attention...there is going to be resentment. Work with them to get used to each other first slowly and seperately. It will take time to get them used to the pups....ditch the muzzles and use leashes...even on the pups so that everything is equal. If anything...give more attention to the bichons. Good luck!!! |
08-08-2008, 08:32 AM | #11 |
I ♥ Joey & Ralphie! Donating Member | I'm dumbfounded you would even consider placing your Bichons in a rescue. This is their home too isn't it? Some people suggest having the dogs meet in a neutral place such as a park works better. Have your Bichons been around other dogs much? I too, think you need to understand a little more about the pack mentality and realize these dogs might just be defending their territory. When a new dog comes in they need to learn to be submissive to the older dogs. This comes through in your attitude as well, and you should feed the older dogs first, and give them attention first. I also think the dogs would benefit from daily walking to release some of their energy. Its better to give a dog full access to the house and teach it to behave than just delegate to a few rooms and outside. We have a member here who is an animal behavioral training specialist by the name of scootiebootie, and she offers YT members discounts for special needs training. Here's her website: LDThome, or you could PM her. Here's some tips from the Human Society Introducing Pets to a New Dog | The Humane Society of the United States, and another one from Animal Welfare. Dog Tip: Introducing a New Dog to a Resident Dog. I also recommend Cesar Millan books and tapes on training your dogs and establishing yourself as the pack leader.
__________________ NancyJoey Proud members of the CrAzYcLuB and YAP! ** Just Say No to Puppymills Join YAP! Yorkshire Terrier Club of America Breeder Referrals |
08-08-2008, 12:42 PM | #12 |
Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2008 Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 108
| to my posting! Thank you to all who have posted on my bichons and the yorkies. I just wanted to clear up and say that I think you have the impression that I am getting "rid" of my bichons. No way do I want to do that at all. I want them to all get along. My bichons do not have run of the house whenever they want but they do have access to a acre of backyard that is completely fenced whenever they want. They have a doggie door and go in and out whenever they choose. They also get lots and lots of attention. They are also quite spoiled and knowing that is one of the reasons I am choosing to introduce them to the yorkie puppies as per the vets recommendation. However they are showing aggresion that they have never shown before and I do understand about them be domineering about thier posistion here but I was hoping to get some ideas from others here about what more I could do.The yorkies also do not have full run of the house. I would love for them to all get along. My bichons are very attached to me more so than anyone else here. Do you think they are trying to protect me? I have tried to show them so much more attention than they ever got before and that was a whole bunch! Getting "rid" of them is not my idea at all and I don't consider it at all. I have a friend who took in a rescue Pitt bull and after much aggresion and fights and so much more was able to successfully get him and her other three adult dogs to become good friends. I am not into big dogs but she did it and surely there must be someway I can get these two bichons to not be the way they are being. Thank you for all your responses. I appreciate all your opinions. |
08-08-2008, 01:09 PM | #13 | ||
I ♥ Joey & Ralphie! Donating Member | Quote:
It was this statement, that you made that made me think you were considering rehoming them: Quote:
One way, is to make the dogs sit before placing the food down. Have them sit and stay until you give the release command. The alpha dog is the dog that provides the food, and the other dogs don't eat until the alpha dog has eaten. This is innate for dogs and very easy for them to understand, just this one thing, puts you in a better position of authority. Walking and the way in which you do it is also important. It is Cesar's belief that walking is very important to a dog's well being, not just the exercise part of it, but the "hunt" of the walk. You as the "alpha" should guide the dogs, and they should walk next to you, not in front of you. This does require discipline and practice; again, just this one thing helps establish you as the boss. The alpha dog provides the food and fights predators, by being aggressive with the new puppies, your dogs are showing you that they think they are the alpha, or pack leader and as you suspected, are trying to protect you. There are other ways to establish yourself as boss, but one thing you should remember, you should never yell or hit your dogs, as they don't respect this action, I'm not saying you would do this, but lots of people do yell when frustrated and this should be avoided. As Cesar says, be "calm and asertive".
__________________ NancyJoey Proud members of the CrAzYcLuB and YAP! ** Just Say No to Puppymills Join YAP! Yorkshire Terrier Club of America Breeder Referrals Last edited by Nancy1999; 08-08-2008 at 01:10 PM. | ||
08-08-2008, 05:06 PM | #14 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 213
| I think you got some really great advice on here! My older yorkie gets annoyed with his little brother's playfulness and snaps violently at him (but has never hurt him). I hope everything works out for you! And if its your husband and daughters pushing to get rid of the bichons....Stand your ground! If it were me I'd would make them feel horrible about it....tell your daughters you can only keep 1 of them LOL Maybe that will help them understand what they are really asking you to do.... |
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