advise / weaning/ engorged nipples

[kjcmsw]

Hi...
a new question. Puppies are now 5 + weeks, Gracie started weaning them last week, now she's growling at them, we're giving them mush and they're learning the basics of eating and doing ok. It's Gracie I'm concerned about, as she stopped nursing them on her own and if we made her lay down she'd tolerate the puppies nursing (1-2x day)and she'd be relieved, now tonight she got really angry at them for nursing after we laid her down with them, growling snapping. Thus we didn't push it; however her nipples are engorged (not terribly, but still swollen - looking in need of being nursed) and my question is what should I do, just let it be and she'll dry up on her own or what to do now? (We started putting Bag Balm on her nipples as they looked sore, which helped for a couple days, she seemed to tolerate nursing them (with our assistance)...but tonight it was a definite no-go.) She still cares for them...if they make too much noise she goes and checks on them and is still protective of them...but the first time they run up and try to nurse she's ready to bite (??) them.
What to do?? Thanks for any advice.
Kendra

[bjh]

It is a bit unusual for a momma to wean the pups that young. How many pups is she nursing? Most of my mommas allow the pups to nurse at least 8 weeks or longer. Have you cut the toenails on the pups? If you have not then I suggest you do that. Puppy toenails get really sharp and can really hurt the momma when the pups are nursing.

I feel it is best if the pups are allowed to nurse several times a day. You can grind up some dry puppy food for them to lick on in addition to the mush you are giving them.

If the mommas teats get to full you might want to put a warm compress on them.

[kjcmsw]

Thanks for responding.
Yes, we've clipped their nails (three times since they've been born, so nearly once a week - yes, they are sharp) they also have very sharp teeth..maybe that's the problem.
We used the warm compress this morning, held her down, and she nursed them for about 4 minutes. But she would not have nursed them on her own.

She's pretty much done with nursing I'm afraid. The pups also didn't seem that interested in nursing after about 4 minutes. Animals usually know what they're doing without human interference, so I'm not too concerned with the weaning, they've continued to put on weight (though the daily gaining is less these days), and are active and healthy.
My concern is what to do with mama now that's she's weaning (be it 5 or 8 wks) Do I let her dry up naturally or is there something I should be doing? Like a shot from the vet to speed up the drying up process? I don't want her to get an infection.
Any further advise is really appreciated.
Kendra

[bjh]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

Thanks for responding.
Yes, we've clipped their nails (three times since they've been born, so nearly once a week - yes, they are sharp) they also have very sharp teeth..maybe that's the problem.
We used the warm compress this morning, held her down, and she nursed them for about 4 minutes. But she would not have nursed them on her own.

She's pretty much done with nursing I'm afraid. The pups also didn't seem that interested in nursing after about 4 minutes. Animals usually know what they're doing without human interference, so I'm not too concerned with the weaning, they've continued to put on weight (though the daily gaining is less these days), and are active and healthy.
My concern is what to do with mama now that's she's weaning (be it 5 or 8 wks) Do I let her dry up naturally or is there something I should be doing? Like a shot from the vet to speed up the drying up process? I don't want her to get an infection.
Any further advise is really appreciated.
Kendra

I always let mine dry up naturally and I have never had a female get engorged teats or an infection during the weaning process. I would not take her completely away from the pups but she needs to be able to go to them when she wants to. I use a 8" board to separate mom from pups so she can go to them when she wants to but they can't get to her. Her snapping at them is part of the weaning process. The pups will need mom around to teach them social skills. How big is mom and her pups? Bigger pups are easier to wean early than the tiny ones are.

[BamaFan121s]

I have in the past put a soft infants shirt or onesie on mom to restrict access from the pups when they are still trying to nurse. Just a suggestion.

[BellarataMalt]

yes, when the moms are done, there isn't much you can do about it!!

I actually had the same concern you did, I had a mom that was done and she was VERY engorged and it just looked sooo painful! i was afraid of mastitis. I did you what you did, warm compress and then I milked her to release some of the pressure. She cleared up in about a week

Here is what she looked like
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i2...1286508988.jpg

Definitely not something I like to see. Hope everything goes ok for your little mommy!

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

Hi...
a new question. Puppies are now 5 + weeks, Gracie started weaning them last week, now she's growling at them, we're giving them mush and they're learning the basics of eating and doing ok. It's Gracie I'm concerned about, as she stopped nursing them on her own and if we made her lay down she'd tolerate the puppies nursing (1-2x day)and she'd be relieved, now tonight she got really angry at them for nursing after we laid her down with them, growling snapping. Thus we didn't push it; however her nipples are engorged (not terribly, but still swollen - looking in need of being nursed) and my question is what should I do, just let it be and she'll dry up on her own or what to do now? (We started putting Bag Balm on her nipples as they looked sore, which helped for a couple days, she seemed to tolerate nursing them (with our assistance)...but tonight it was a definite no-go.) She still cares for them...if they make too much noise she goes and checks on them and is still protective of them...but the first time they run up and try to nurse she's ready to bite (??) them.
What to do?? Thanks for any advice.
Kendra

More than likely your pupshave their full compliment of milk teeth and is the reason mom is not allowing them access to those nipples. They are nipping at her and it hurts. This is the time when weaning begins, the consistancy of mother's milk is changing, not as rich.

I've always allowed my girls to call the shots. But, if she really doesn't allow them to nurse on her, then decrease her food intake. Some withhold food for 24 hours and keep her away from pups. These pups being so young, mmmmm I'd try working with her a bit more. Weaning time is very crucial......But, they are old enough to lap. Goat's milk, equal parts of distilled water and Gerber's rice cereal with a bit of Karo......Let them go at it about 4 to 5 times a day.

[kjcmsw]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Re: separating them but still leaving her access...well, tonight one of managed to climb over a 12" piece of cardboard we had duct taped to the door of the x-pen, which did allow mama to jump in and out as she pleased. We put him back and he did it again...5 times. Thus we're working on making it higher, but then mama can't get in and out. We put a box step on the outside of the pen and let her jump in, but she has trouble getting back out. (my concern is if she gets stuck in there while we're at work, and they keep hounding her to nurse, she'll bite one, as she does not want them nursing anymore. I know she cares as we put them on the kitchen floor tonight and of course they all headed off in different directions which mama started getting concerned trying to round them all up (trying to push them back to the center of the kitchen) as she couldn't keep an eye on all them in separate corners (yes, we were watching them explore, thus they were supervised by us)
This is a challenge as they seemed awfully advanced for their age. They are beginning to eat fairly well, though I'm not sure they are getting all they should (though they are still gaining a bit so I guess they are) They know their names and come when you call them individually, they all come running out of their play pen into the xpen all excited when we come home. Now they're climbing. The one takes to running to try to jump the cardboard (unsuccessfully). Somehow I didn't think they did all this for at least a couple more weeks.
I'll try the separating and holding off of food for mama tomorrow and see how it goes.
Thanks again...feel free to keep those ideas coming in as I really appreciate it all.
Kendra

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by BellarataMalt

yes, when the moms are done, there isn't much you can do about it!!

I actually had the same concern you did, I had a mom that was done and she was VERY engorged and it just looked sooo painful! i was afraid of mastitis. I did you what you did, warm compress and then I milked her to release some of the pressure. She cleared up in about a week

Here is what she looked like
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i2...1286508988.jpg

Definitely not something I like to see. Hope everything goes ok for your little mommy!

oh my gosh, no mine doesn't look that bad. Wow...your poor mama...yes, it looks painful. oooo, gives me quivers just thinking about that!

I've been giving mama (since she gave birth) the puppy food and the canned milk/gelatin mixture and the puppies love that. I've been grinding puppy kibble and goat's milk, and placing a bite in each of their mouths, they lap at the goat's milk and drink water fine, they try to chew the puppy kibble...we give them it whole, chopped coarse, and chopped fine (yeah, I know it's a doggie diner, spoiled mutts!!! lol) but they don't do that well on the kibble. all their teeth are in and sharp as razors. They even try to chew the metal on the x-pen and all their toys. The one picks up the (heavy) saucer, chews on it and drags it around.
Funny, but doesn't alleviate all my concerns. They certainly act healthy.
I'm also concerned they won't get enough mama training time (until they are completely weaned) because she tries to play with them (I see her trying to teach them correct soft biting), but then they go for the nursing and she's out of there.
Such worries. Kendra

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I have in the past put a soft infants shirt or onesie on mom to restrict access from the pups when they are still trying to nurse. Just a suggestion.

That's a good idea...I'll try that also...I was just really hoping she'd nurse them another week or two. thanks.
Kendra

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by bjh

I always let mine dry up naturally and I have never had a female get engorged teats or an infection during the weaning process. I would not take her completely away from the pups but she needs to be able to go to them when she wants to. I use a 8" board to separate mom from pups so she can go to them when she wants to but they can't get to her. Her snapping at them is part of the weaning process. The pups will need mom around to teach them social skills. How big is mom and her pups? Bigger pups are easier to wean early than the tiny ones are.

Mama is about 5 3/4 pounds (she's been eating good). the pups seem big to me (birth weights: 5.5 ounces, 5 ounces, 4.5 ounces, now boy one: 2 lbs, boy two: 1.7 lbs, and girl: 1.5 lbs respectively). Up until lately they had all been nursing like crazy whenever they could. I think they just wore her out. We've even tried just taking one to her, she'll tolerate the girl (for all of a minute), but they boys she will tolerate nursing even less.

She give me a ten minute warning before she had the first (three days before her due date). She whimpered, clawed at my legs, I felt her stomach (hard as a rock), got the whelping box out, made her comfy, made a tent with a blanket, rubbed her head and decided just to take a "peek" (10 minutes after the first & only whimper) and the first one was 3/4 of the way out. 25 minutes later came #2, and about an hour later came #3, all on her own, not even a whimper. I was soooo thankful I took her to work with me everyday the last 3 weeks of her pregnancy...as she had them shortly after we got home from work, she could have easily had them at home by herself if I had left her. The first one's sack was fairly thick and we definitely had to break that...so I imagine he'd had a problem had she had been alone.
Kendra

[Cares4Dogs]

My girl was looking engorged one night and I put warm wet wash cloths on her and just gave a little pressure to help get some of the milk out. This was like at 3 a.m. when I got up to check on her and her babies. I did this for about 30 minutes and she was totally comfortable through the process and a few hours later her belly looked back to normal.

Is your girl still looking engorged?

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by Cares4Dogs

My girl was looking engorged one night and I put warm wet wash cloths on her and just gave a little pressure to help get some of the milk out. This was like at 3 a.m. when I got up to check on her and her babies. I did this for about 30 minutes and she was totally comfortable through the process and a few hours later her belly looked back to normal.

Is your girl still looking engorged?

Not too bad. Individual nipple areas swollen, but not the entire area between, not dimpled. The only way we can get her to nurse them for even a couple minutes is to put a bowl of the after birth "pudding" as she loves that (as I said before) into the x pen, the pups come running and they nurse while she's eating. We tried the hot pack. I've added the rice cereal to their mush (+ a drop of puppy nutrical in morn, some karo at night)...rice cereal seems to "stick to their ribs" --- Gracie's just done nursing. I think in order to keep her spending time with them I need to let her dry up, put the shirt on, but I think it's them that needs to accept if they wanna see mama, then don't try to nurse so she'll stay in the pen with them. Like I said, they seem to be thriving, so I'm trying to let nature take its course (of course, mother nature has left the feeding of the pups to me!!! lol)

Thanks to everyone for responding, it has really helped.
Kendra

[Cares4Dogs]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

Not too bad. Individual nipple areas swollen, but not the entire area between, not dimpled. The only way we can get her to nurse them for even a couple minutes is to put a bowl of the after birth "pudding" as she loves that (as I said before) into the x pen, the pups come running and they nurse while she's eating. We tried the hot pack. I've added the rice cereal to their mush (+ a drop of puppy nutrical in morn, some karo at night)...rice cereal seems to "stick to their ribs" --- Gracie's just done nursing. I think in order to keep her spending time with them I need to let her dry up, put the shirt on, but I think it's them that needs to accept if they wanna see mama, then don't try to nurse so she'll stay in the pen with them. Like I said, they seem to be thriving, so I'm trying to let nature take its course (of course, mother nature has left the feeding of the pups to me!!! lol)

Thanks to everyone for responding, it has really helped.
Kendra

Good...I'm glad she's doing better. I'd continue to do warm compresses and try to drain any engorged nipples so long as its not too uncomfortable to momma. My girl nursed until the pups were about 8-9 weeks and she dried up on her own. She tappered off and didnt stop abruptly. Are you mixing goats milk with the rice cereal?

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by Cares4Dogs

Good...I'm glad she's doing better. I'd continue to do warm compresses and try to drain any engorged nipples so long as its not too uncomfortable to momma. My girl nursed until the pups were about 8-9 weeks and she dried up on her own. She tappered off and didnt stop abruptly. Are you mixing goats milk with the rice cereal?

Yes, goats milk (with a little distilled water) with rice cereal and finely crushed puppy kibble....and --- I'm thinking this needs to be a separate post --- some chicken meat (1 x day)...very finely diced, about the equivalent to a 3/4 tsp -- (they love it and when I add it to their kibble they gobble it all up, included the coarser chopped kibble. Their potty is normal, so I'm assuming the white chix breast meat isn't hurting them or upsetting their stomachs ( I hope its safe to do ). If anyone knows that's a definite no-no, please advise me asap, so I can stop.
Again, gave Gracie (mama) the pudding and she nursed them while eating it tonight.
They are learning not to harass her so much as tonight she got in and played with them, rolled around, play bite, etc., they played back and none of them tried to nurse, so she spent quite a bit of time actually playing with them. She didn't sleep with them last night -- we still have a heating pad under a corner of their sleeping quarters -- so they're warm enough, I think she needed the break to get back into her mothering duties of spending time with them without nursing. She really acted like she enjoyed her play time with her puppies, though I think she got a little rough a couple times, flipped one of them over with her nose (as he decided to take a nap) while urging him to join them in play. And she played more with one than the other two (it was the pup that wants to play more with her), but it "seemed" like she was really trying to teach this one something (play gentler?? maybe?? as that pup is always trying to crawl on Gracie's face and bite Gracie's nose as Gracie would get a hold her the puppy's nose and hold it for a few seconds before letting her go).
Anyway, I think everything will be okay, ultimately would have probably been better had she nursed longer, but like Mary said, because their teeth are all in (and little razors) and they are vigorous suckers, I think she just had to let it go.
Thanks so much for everyone's help, concern, and interest; I truly appreciate it more than words can say. Kendra