what clearences do you do on you breeding dogs - YorkieTalk.com Forums

Yorkie_Mama · 10-03-2005, 09:09 PM

hi guys i am trying to become more knowlegable on Yorkies as most of you know i am a novice in breeding yorkies but have breed mini aussies for a good amount of time so here is my question
i have called uc Davis CA to get more info but
what clearences do you do on your sire and dam
on ausssies i did Cerf and OFA and Patella tests
i have been told that Yorkies are low on the OFA list of hip issues
and i am having bile acid test run on all of my puppies and i have not been able to find info on yorkies and Cerf test
and what about Cardio !!!
i want to make shure to have the healthys babies possible and i knew how to do this with Aussies i just dont want to be ignorant in the yorkies and there Genes i just read Gordon and Bennett book on yorkies any other good ones
Thanks Ladys...and Gents Jamie

Baron · 10-04-2005, 11:33 AM

I have my breeding pair have Bile Acid tests, and I have the vet check their legs (stifels). Also a general check before breeding them.

Yorkie_Mama · 10-04-2005, 06:29 PM

Thank You Barron my vet said that each puppie needs a bile acid test dont since its not genitic do you dissagree i dont want to spend too much $$$ and lets face it my vet makes tons of cash

sylvan · 10-04-2005, 06:48 PM

We run the gamut on breeding adults, have done bile -acid through Cornell, x-rays, LCP, patellas, stifles, blood screenings, you name it. I do not and would not subject pups to bile acid testing unless there were indicative signs of a PSS problem. This is another good reason for breeders to keep pups until 12 weeks.

Baron · 10-04-2005, 07:28 PM

Liver shunt is genetic, but it can skip generations. Besides testing my breeding pair, I also test each pup before it is sold, or even kept for myself. I have a dog that did have livershunt, and know how costly it is to correct. There is also an acquired Livershunt, which is the result of some other sickness, but if a puppy tests positive with the Bile Acid test, 95% of the time it will be a congential shunt. A bile acid test does not mean for sure you have a shunt, only that there is a problem concerning the liver. You need to have more tests to determine exactly what the problem is.

Yorkie_Mama · 10-05-2005, 08:52 PM

thank you this is exactly what i wanted to know i have been doing reasearch on what i will do and i needed the full gamit also is there an agreement that 12 weeks is a good age for bile acid test thank you both !@!!!

sylvan · 10-06-2005, 04:35 AM

I do not test outgoing pups for PSS with bile acid at all unless there would be an issue that concerned me. All the background work I have done into the health history of my breeding pairs makes this an unlikely event. If it was a concern I would start with a blood screening and check for unusual elevations before proceeding with bile acid. An incoming dog that I plan to use would be tested, but not until they were MUCH older, and I was sold on the quality of the dog for use as a breeder.

Baron · 10-06-2005, 08:45 AM

I never used to test either, and neither do a lot of breeders, but that is why so many people that purchase pets end up with pups with liver shunt, because the breeders all thought they were safe with their breedings. I sugest to anyone that is going to purchase a puppy, be it for show or pet, that they insist on the pup being tested for liver problems, even if they have to pay for it. It is much more reasonable to have the test, than to have to pay for the surgery, or to put the dog down because you can't afford the surgery. My livershunt puppy went back 3 generations, but it was found to be that there were carriers in the line. Then even though the breeder I got my pup from stopped breeding the pair, the one she got her dog from denied that it could be hers, and refused to stop breeding or even test because she was showing her dogs.

I do my testing because of my experience, and yes it is covered in the price I charge for the dog, but I figure the person that I sell to would much rather have had me test for it, than to have a surprise after they have already gotten attached to the pup. Also, I can't afford to put out 2500 to 5000 for the surgery if one of my pups would come up having a congential shunt. I guarntee my pups to be free of it, so I would cover it if it did show up. I do not cover an acquired shunt, that would be caused by some other illness, and will usually show up in older dogs that have had some serious health problems.

feminvstr · 10-06-2005, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron

I do not cover an acquired shunt, that would be caused by some other illness, and will usually show up in older dogs that have had some serious health problems.

Baron in all do respect Ive never heard the term aquired shunt before. Could you please explain your definition.

Liver shunt could be very very minor, undectable in a young pup or young adult as they age the problem can rear its ugly head. It can be exaserbated by diet as they age thats the only thing I am familiar with. Aquired condition is confusing me.

Baron · 10-06-2005, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feminvstr

Baron in all do respect Ive never heard the term aquired shunt before. Could you please explain your definition.

Liver shunt could be very very minor, undectable in a young pup or young adult as they age the problem can rear its ugly head. It can be exaserbated by diet as they age thats the only thing I am familiar with. Aquired condition is confusing me.

I hope this kind of explains the difference for you.

A Congential Shunt, or PSS (Portosystemic shunt)
Developing fetuses in all mammals have a large shunt that carries blood through the liver to the heart. Since the mother's liver does the work of filtering out toxins, storing sugar, and producing protein for her unborn babies, liver function is not needed in the fetus. Under normal circumstances, the shunt closes down shortly before or after birth as the newborn's liver begins to work. However, in some cases the shunt doesn't close down properly, or forms around the outside of the liver, thereby causing a hereditary birth defect known as a “congenital portosystemic shunt” or CPSS.

Acquired Shunts
Acquired shunts are not hereditary. They are a result of progressive liver disease. Dogs suffering from cirrhosis, hepatitis or congestive heart failure can have increased pressure inside their livers. This pressure causes embryonic vessels that normally have no function after birth to open. Often this involves a number of vessels not the one or two seen in congenital shunts.

yorkiegal719 · 10-06-2005, 10:56 AM

This is a good thread. Baron, that's a wonderful explanation of the different liver shunts. It's always so hard to exactly know what tests to do but you surely want to do all you can to cover everything...

bearded1957 · 10-06-2005, 11:19 AM

new to all this what does test cost? I WANT TO ASK MY VET next visit.

feminvstr · 10-06-2005, 11:48 AM

Baron thank you Ive never heard of the latter, you can never stop learning.

May I ask are you Baron Kennels back east - Barb and Ron?

Baron · 10-06-2005, 11:51 AM

No, I gather you mean Barb and Ron Neal? I know them, but that is not me.

Baron · 10-06-2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearded1957

new to all this what does test cost? I WANT TO ASK MY VET next visit.

Bile acid test can run anywhere from 40.00 to 100+. Depending on where you live. It cost me about 78.00, but I feel it is well worth the cost to assure that the pup does not have a congential shunt.

10-03-2005, 09:09 PM	#1
Yorkie_Mama YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Chico,California Posts: 380	what clearences do you do on you breeding dogs hi guys i am trying to become more knowlegable on Yorkies as most of you know i am a novice in breeding yorkies but have breed mini aussies for a good amount of time so here is my question i have called uc Davis CA to get more info but what clearences do you do on your sire and dam on ausssies i did Cerf and OFA and Patella tests i have been told that Yorkies are low on the OFA list of hip issues and i am having bile acid test run on all of my puppies and i have not been able to find info on yorkies and Cerf test and what about Cardio !!! i want to make shure to have the healthys babies possible and i knew how to do this with Aussies i just dont want to be ignorant in the yorkies and there Genes i just read Gordon and Bennett book on yorkies any other good ones Thanks Ladys...and Gents Jamie

10-04-2005, 06:29 PM	#3
Yorkie_Mama YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Chico,California Posts: 380	Thank you barron Thank You Barron my vet said that each puppie needs a bile acid test dont since its not genitic do you dissagree i dont want to spend too much $$$ and lets face it my vet makes tons of cash

10-05-2005, 08:52 PM	#6
Yorkie_Mama YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Chico,California Posts: 380	Thank you thank you this is exactly what i wanted to know i have been doing reasearch on what i will do and i needed the full gamit also is there an agreement that 12 weeks is a good age for bile acid test thank you both !@!!!

10-06-2005, 10:56 AM	#11
yorkiegal719 YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 602	This is a good thread. Baron, that's a wonderful explanation of the different liver shunts. It's always so hard to exactly know what tests to do but you surely want to do all you can to cover everything... __________________ Theresa & The Boys +1 The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue

10-06-2005, 11:19 AM	#12
bearded1957 Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Cleveland Ohio Posts: 36	pss test new to all this what does test cost? I WANT TO ASK MY VET next visit.

10-04-2005, 11:33 AM	#2
Baron Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 186	I have my breeding pair have Bile Acid tests, and I have the vet check their legs (stifels). Also a general check before breeding them.

10-04-2005, 06:48 PM	#4
sylvan YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Eastern PA Posts: 2,484	We run the gamut on breeding adults, have done bile -acid through Cornell, x-rays, LCP, patellas, stifles, blood screenings, you name it. I do not and would not subject pups to bile acid testing unless there were indicative signs of a PSS problem. This is another good reason for breeders to keep pups until 12 weeks.

10-04-2005, 07:28 PM	#5
Baron Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 186	Liver shunt is genetic, but it can skip generations. Besides testing my breeding pair, I also test each pup before it is sold, or even kept for myself. I have a dog that did have livershunt, and know how costly it is to correct. There is also an acquired Livershunt, which is the result of some other sickness, but if a puppy tests positive with the Bile Acid test, 95% of the time it will be a congential shunt. A bile acid test does not mean for sure you have a shunt, only that there is a problem concerning the liver. You need to have more tests to determine exactly what the problem is.

10-06-2005, 04:35 AM	#7
sylvan YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Eastern PA Posts: 2,484	I do not test outgoing pups for PSS with bile acid at all unless there would be an issue that concerned me. All the background work I have done into the health history of my breeding pairs makes this an unlikely event. If it was a concern I would start with a blood screening and check for unusual elevations before proceeding with bile acid. An incoming dog that I plan to use would be tested, but not until they were MUCH older, and I was sold on the quality of the dog for use as a breeder.

10-06-2005, 08:45 AM	#8
Baron Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 186	I never used to test either, and neither do a lot of breeders, but that is why so many people that purchase pets end up with pups with liver shunt, because the breeders all thought they were safe with their breedings. I sugest to anyone that is going to purchase a puppy, be it for show or pet, that they insist on the pup being tested for liver problems, even if they have to pay for it. It is much more reasonable to have the test, than to have to pay for the surgery, or to put the dog down because you can't afford the surgery. My livershunt puppy went back 3 generations, but it was found to be that there were carriers in the line. Then even though the breeder I got my pup from stopped breeding the pair, the one she got her dog from denied that it could be hers, and refused to stop breeding or even test because she was showing her dogs. I do my testing because of my experience, and yes it is covered in the price I charge for the dog, but I figure the person that I sell to would much rather have had me test for it, than to have a surprise after they have already gotten attached to the pup. Also, I can't afford to put out 2500 to 5000 for the surgery if one of my pups would come up having a congential shunt. I guarntee my pups to be free of it, so I would cover it if it did show up. I do not cover an acquired shunt, that would be caused by some other illness, and will usually show up in older dogs that have had some serious health problems.

10-06-2005, 11:48 AM	#13
feminvstr Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 4,398	Baron thank you Ive never heard of the latter, you can never stop learning. May I ask are you Baron Kennels back east - Barb and Ron? __________________ Kimberly

10-06-2005, 11:51 AM	#14
Baron Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 186	No, I gather you mean Barb and Ron Neal? I know them, but that is not me.