Still Looking for a Male
 

Hey Guys-
I am still in the market for a little male. For those of you who have kept up with the last few Threads I have started- Please Help and Has Any one Heard of this Breeder- Here is what has been happening. This is a PM that I sent to someone on the forum since she has a dog from the breeder that I had been expecting to buy my baby from. I just copied what I sent to her so that I would not have to type the whole thing again:
Hello-
I just though that I would update you on what is going on with kim and trigger. Well, I got an e-mail fom her on Sunday night (which I will attatch) telling me that she would send my money back and that she did not want to sell me Trigger. She told me that (well you can read it). Back when I was going to buy Diesel from her I had called her vet's office trying to leave her a message to remember to have his knees checked. I had tried her cell and home and finally came up with the idea to call the vet. In speaking w/ the vet's office I asked if i could leave a message to remind her to have his knees checked. While I had the girl on the phone I did ask if she knew if it had already been done (just to quickly clear up the matter) she of course could not give me any info on whether it had been done so I asked her to leave the message for kim. I do not know what kim though the conversation was about or what she was told, but this is apparently what caused her to decide not to sell Trigger to me. i called the vet last tues. and she waited until after offering me Maverick or trigger at the same price as Diesel, after me deciding on Trigger, and after telling me that he would be shipped this week to tell me that has changed her mind! Needless to say- i was pissed when I got her e-mail. I started to respond right away, but realized how upset I was so I waited until today to send her a response (which I will also attatch). i just thought I would ask your opinion of the whole situation. Was I out of line to call the vet to try to get a hold of her? I mean she had my 2000.00 sitting in her bank account for the dog- she should have made herself available. you'll understand more why I called when you read what I sent her. I am still pretty upset. I had my heart set on him and it took me a long time to finally make up my mind on him! Let me know what you think. Here is her last e-mail to me:

Beth,
I'm not sure how to begin with this. I've been praying about this and talking it over with my husband. I have had an uneasy feeling with you in our dealing with each other. I guess the first thing was when you called the vet's office about Diesel. They didn't appreciate it, they are very busy people and was doing me a favor getting Diesel in so quickly. They are under law to not give out any information to anyone but the owner of the animal. But not just that, there have been several things along the way that alarmed me and made me think that you can be unreasonable. I have dealt with a lot of people over the years and usually when I see signs of this before hand it is a real problem down the road. I do not wish to have problems now or later. I also do not wish for you to have any problems, but I'm not sure you know that. I know it is hard to trust people these days and I do not blame you for that, just can't shake the feeling that my dealings with you may come back to haunt me later. So I've decided to send you your money back, all of it, even though I did a lot of things to Diesel because you asked me to, not because I was obligated to, that cost me unnecessarily. I do hope you can find a perfect little male that will make your breeding program a success. It will be in the mail to you Tuesday and you should get it by Friday. I opted not to send it via wire because it would be additional funds at this point that I am not willing to pay.

I pray God's Blessings on this.

Here is what I sent as a response to her:

Kim,

I appreciate your honesty, but just wish that you would have gotten back to me as soon as you began feeling this way. This could have saved me a lot of time waiting and wondering when you'd be getting back to me about Trigger, I could have also known sooner to start looking for another dog. I don't know what your vet's office told you, but as I told you when I called to let you know I phoned them, I called to try to get a hold of you. I was not trying to sneak around to get information or anything like that. When I called I asked if you were there yet because I wanted to remind you to have his knees checked for the LP. You had told me what a small town you live in and that the lady vet was there only a couple times a week. If your town is anything like mine, I have to drive 20 miles to the closest vet, I wanted to save you the extra trip to have it looked at. I had already tried calling your home and cell phone that morning and could not get you, that is why I called the vet's office. I told the girl on the phone that you were bringing in Diesel to have his teeth done and that I wanted to leave a message reminding you to have his knees checked. I simply asked her if she knew if it had already been done and she told me she did not know and that she could not give me the information anyway. That was fine. I did not see it as going behind your back in any way- especially since you already had my 2000.00 in your bank account (that was not my thought at the time, but after reading your last e-mail, I thought wait a minute- even if I had called for information, I had already basically purchased him!). I know the vet's office did not know that, but you did- that is why I am surprised that you were so upset about me asking if he had been checked for LP. Perhaps you were just unaware of what my conversation was with the receptionist, like I said- I do not know what they told you. Our whole phone conversation was less than a minute long, so I do not understand how asking to leave a message for a client could have taken up too much of their time. As far as the expense of having his teeth pulled- I was pretty sure that I did not ask you to do that. So, I went back through all of our e-mails to be 100% sure. The only thing I ever asked was "How is his bite?" to which you responded that you thought that he still had some baby teeth and that you would have them looked at. If you can remember one of our phone conversations, you told me he did indeed had a few baby teeth in back and that you were going to take him in the next day to have them pulled. I never asked to have that done. When you volunteered to have it done, I was under the impression that you would have had it done anyway whether I got him or not. If having him heartworm tested is another expense that you are talking about, that really surprises me. Dogs should be tested at 6 months and started on a prevention program. There was no way I would have wanted to spend 2000.00 on a dog and take him to the vet to find out he had heartworms when I bought him. Like I said, when I sold Pixie I had it done because it is routine to have already had it done by her age. I should have had it done when she was 6 months old so I had no problem with it. I would never send a dog without knowing that I was sending a perfectly healthy dog. If it was the fact that I asked too many questions about these pups that caused you to change your mind I find it very disheartening. Unfortunately, I have been through a bad experience that I could not fix once the purchase was complete and I do not ever want to have to go through that again. I simply wanted to be sure that I was spending my money on a healthy puppy. I read your warranty and knew what I was signing and what you covered and did not cover. I wanted to be sure that you would not be sending me a puppy that already had a condition that was not covered by the warranty. I really knew that I better be sure that the LP was accounted for before a pup was sent so that I did not end up in the same boat as the lady who bought a pup from you and took it to the vet 24 hours after it arrived to find that it had LP. She told me that when she called you that you could not do anything for her since your warranty did not cover the LP (that's fine, she signed it)- even though he had it before he left you. So, I am very glad that I called the vet's office to remind you to have it done. Yes, I understand that LP is something that can develop later in life. As far as I was concerned about LP- I just wanted to be sure it was not present before you sent him to me. If it was something that developed later in life, then that would have been something I would have had to deal with on my own- I know that- I read the warranty. If it was mainly about me calling the vet, I have now had my chance to explain that, although it's too late. Whether you believe me or not is up to you. As, I am typing this e-mail, I am hoping that you do not take it the wrong way. I am not intending to be sarcastic, I am simply being honest with you as you were with me. I still think you have beautiful dogs and regret that I will not be able to bring Trigger home. I will send you one last e-mail to confirm that I have received my money.

So that is it. I am sorry that these are so long!!! i just know that you are the one that knows of Kim and I really wanted someone elses opinion on the matter. Thanks so much.
Beth

The more I think about this, the more I wonder if she found someone else buy Trigger for his original asking price. She had agreed to sell him to me for the price I was going to pay for Diesel, yet even though she had my money she kept his photo posted on her website as being for sale. It did not come off of her site until a couple of days before she told me she wasn't going to sell him to me. This is why I wonder if someone else contacted her about him since he was still posted. There were a few days where I did not hear from her. I almost feel that she was keeping me hanging on in case she was unable to sell him to someone else. Just my thoughts.

This makes me so angry. She has a lot of nerve if you ask me. If I were spending TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS, I would have done the same things you have done.

You were spending alot of money. I would have wanted him checked for LP also. Maybe its all a blessing in disquise.

hmmm
 

She changed her mind because you called her vet. I don't know what to say..

Ah, Beth, that is horrible! I know...we all knew...how much you were looking forward to having Trigger home. For whatever reasons, this just was not meant to be. I know how difficult it is to find a perfect little male. My thoughts are with you! :(

I would be willing to bet that Trigger had LP and she knew it. She knew your vet would pick up on it and she would be found out.
I know you had your heart set on him, but I definitely think this worked out for the best especially since you were going to use him for your breeding program. You could have found yourself in the position of Trigger producing pups with LP and then you, being an honest person would have had to tell the new parents that their pups had this degenerative condition that could end up costing them an extra 2k for surgery to correct/repair.

I do not feel that any questions you asked or actions you took
were unreasonable. She knew the purpose behind the purchase
from the very beginning and having all of these things clear from
the start would have been in her best interest as well in terms
of reputation. My impression is that she either infact did have
another purchaser or that the puppy didn't pass the checks the
way she thought he would and so she put it back on you instead
of being honest. I know it is very disheartening because I have
seen how long you have been looking but everything happens for
a reason. Good Luck in your new search!

I think its a blessing in disguise. My guess is that the pup had it and/or she might have been hiding something else. It sounds like she didnt like you asking so many questions which i find disturbing cause if i were a breeder i would feel better knowing i was selling to someone who knew so much about the breed.

In Defense
 

Hello,

My name is Kim, I'm the breeder Beth has been speaking of. I have been alerted to this by a very kind person that could see through this. I find all this very strange to say the least. It is really a confusing feeling to see these words written about me from people that don't know me. But Tara, you do know me, I was not dishonest to you with Tino and I was not to her either. She has some issues, ( it would be unkind of me to share with this forum ) that I felt would not be in my puppy's best interest to be with her. Her asking questions never bothered me, on the contrary, I encourage questions. This is a very important decision and needs to be thought out with careful consideration. I am very happy to find a new yorkie mom, like Tara with Tino, that takes this a very serious life long committment with these very special babies. I have in the past went ahead and sold a puppy when I had misgivings and this time I just couldn't. I did not do this to be unkind, all else is speculation and unkind.

Thanks!

Well
 

guess someone blew the whistle on ya for voicing your opinion i hope you find a new baby and a new breeder

Wow!!!! I can't believe this has happened again. What is said on this board should stay on this board! How unfair to B Verselka!

It would maybe be nice if we didn't have to consider everyone (even those who are not here to defend themselves) when we write our posts but this is what admin wrote the last time this happened and I agree. This is not a private forum.

While we may be a tight-knit community, since we are a public forum, it is well within her right to alert Royal Puppies about the initial thread. Since Google heavily indexes YT, it would have shown up on Google sooner or later too. As long as posts are not slanderous or personally insulting to someone, we should have nothing to hide.

Of course in that case it was Royal Puppies and in this case it is a different breeder. I think we just need to careful when we speculate.

Although there are two sides to every story, it is unfair to take what is in a thread and try to start trouble. All Beth wanted was the opinions of others who have all dealt with breeders at one time or another.
Unless Kim denies anything that Beth had copied from her e-mail it is pretty clear that she was upset that Beth was asking questions. Regardless of how busy she feels her vet is;the pup was paid for and it was not a cheap expense, so no questions should have over stepped any lines.
I too breed and I am always up front with my vet when the pups sell that way they can release info to the buyers in confidence. It is hard being a breeder and finding the perfect home for your babies. Sometimes you get an uneasy feeling and can't pin point why but being straight forward up front and not wishy washy is the best route.
I am sure Kim feels odd at seeing others post things in speculation but like I said earlier if the post was taken out of contents (of her words) then she has every right to be upset. If in fact they were her words than Beth has every right to get others opinions about it.
Remember regardless of who says what it is all opinions and/or speculation to know what is going through Beths or Kims head.

Vet call
 

I have a directory in the files at my vet that if a person brings a release or a vet faxs the release, they are to discuss the puppy mentioned with the inquirer. If another calls and asks specifically about a puppy, they are to call me and supply me with the name of the inquirer before giving out any info.
No big deal.As for changing your mind about selling to a specific person of course that is the right of the breeder..I on several occasions have sent people away witout a puppy. I do the preleminary interview on the phone and they have to come to my home. If I do not like them as a parent on the phone, I give them a chance to see if I am wrong. They do know before they come here that they are iffy in my book..A good, responsible breeder has gut reactions and should follow their instincts..

Beth,

I am sorry that you are not getting your little male from Kim, but I honestly would take this as a hint it was NOT meant to be! You need to take your full refund and look for a breeder that will welcome you calls, emails and any questions you may have! You want to deal with a breeder that will be there for you and make you feel secure with your choice, especially a $2,000.00 choice! I would honestly look at this as a blessing! JMO..

January of 2004 my husband invested over $4,500.00 in a show female for me from the extra money he had made fighting the war on terrorism in the AirForce.. This was a reputable show breeder, so he thought!! When she came to our home I found a c-section scar and two grade 4 LP!!! To make a long story short I had NO show female just a pet! The so called reputable show breeder did nothing to make the situation right, as I am sure she had spent the money the day she received it!! I cried myself to sleep several night, especially since my wonderful husband spent the money he had made risking his life for our safety here in the US! The female yorkie was placed in a loving pet home, but I also cried for her as she had become a part of my family before she ever arrived and now I had to place her..

I would just count my lucky stars you are getting all your money back and are able to look for another beautiful boy from a breeder that wants to be there for you!!

Melanie
Shadyhills Yorkshire Terriers

I think when someone comes to a closed group to ask why something may have happened we should be there for them and not cross post any comment that has been written.. I have always been told to believe 1/2 of what you see with your own eyes and believe none of what you hear!

Melanie

As long as it is on the Internet & this is not a closed forum where only members can read the post, everything is fair game. The search engines love to spider through a message board & reference everything. When there is a lot of action, changes, etc on a web address, they will be there indexing all the files & this is one busy little message board.

What makes it even harder, if you were talking in person - you can say things & it don't sound bad - but when it is written & you can't hear the voice, etc. it comes across totally different than what you had planned.

I had a message board for a ministry once & it was a hopping board too & these were some of the problems I had. I had to get moderators to help me all the time, it was so much work. It ended up the moderators decided they knew more than the ministry and that was the end of the message board. LOL!

We even had problems of people wanting to sue for slander over some of what was said on the Board. My advice - only say what you don't mind being repeated. If you're upset about something someone said or something you feel strongly about, read it again before you post because in the heat of the moment you can sound very hateful & you didn't mean to be.

Kim- Are you the "kind person" that always notifies these breeders when someone is speculating about them? Its interesting that you are always involved in the thread that the breeder that is being discussed just miraculously finds YT and then somehow finds the post in which they are being discussed..... Very kind of you? I don't think there is anything wrong with Beth posting to get opinions about Kim changing her mind about selling Trigger. People are allowed to speculate. As you quoted admin in your thread... this is a PUBLIC forum- we are ALL entitled to our opinions and speculations.

Melanie- You have hit the nail on the head! Althoug this is a public forum, we are still a community and any opinions that Beth asked for should NOT be cross posted anywhere. Thank heavens Beth has the opportunity to find a healthy beautiful little boy that she can wholeheartedly welcome into her breeding program! I just know there will be a breeder out there that will not fear anything coming up in the future, but will welcome communication on knowing how her pups are doing and what litters they are producing!

As they say what happens in life is for a reason. I hope you find your male puppy soon!

One More Thing

I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone on the Board, I was explaining some stuff I learned along the way.

I do believe things happen for a reason too. I know there is a perfect furbaby out there for you & everything will fall into place & you will be glad you didn't get this one. :D

No Tara! How very kind of you!

No, once again you have accused the wrong person. I did not get an apology last time and I don't expect one this time. I didn't even know who the breeder was until after I posted my response and went back and researched it!

It would be really nice if the person who did notify the breeder would contact admin privately to divulge this as I can certainly understand why you would want to remain anonymous, but it would help my situation here. :)

Beth~ Your puppy is out there waiting for you. I am so sorry this happened on your thread but I think this was just not meant to be and when you find the "right" male you will know why things happened the way the did.

Wow, this is turning into a big old mess isn't it? I have no
problem with a breeder turning someone away that they
don't have a good feeling about. I think what bothers me
about this is I feel that once money has been exchanged
I find it rather tacky at that point to go back on your word.
But....I emphasize that is just my own personal opinion
I don't blame Beth for being mad and confused at the same
time. I don't think that she intended to cause trouble by
posting I believe that she just was seeing if she had missed
something that we could possibly see in regard to where the
deal had gone wrong.
I reread my earlier post and perhaps I did jump to conclusions
that were not based on facts but more on my personal feelings.
For that I do apologize because it is unfair to automatically
assume someone is dishonest just because I don't understand
the feelings behind their actions.
Last Socalyorkielvr (Kim) I hope you know I not only appreciate
your views but I have great respect for you as a person. There
have been many times that my mind has come to form a conclusion
and then I will read one of your posts on the same subject and
it opens my mind in a whole different direction it would not have
gone in otherwise. I know you get the short end of the stick some-
times but this forum does need people like you.

Still looking for a male
 

There are two sides to each story. We were starting to Bash the breeder KIM-. Speculations were starting to be made with no evidence. Beth is a friend and member of the forum.

It is difficult when talking to people over the phone and internet when you are wanting to buy a puppy/adult. You loose out on that eye contact. Meeting someone in person is always better.

Miscommunication can cause problems. If I am taking a puppy to the vet for a health certificate- I really do not need the puppy to be owner calling my vet/ or me to leave me reminders on what is to be done on the check up. If you do not trust me enough to have a complete check up done then You should not buy a puppy/adult from me. The puppy to be owner has a listing that I send to them which clearly states what I am having checked and what we have agreed upon being checked in addition if any. I have a copy of this back in my paws before the kid goes to the vet with both of our signatures on it. You have a copy and I have a copy. Do I have a problem with you talking to my vet about this kid no. But due to disclosure laws the vet has to be careful about was is said unless they have a release from the breeder. This check up information is then provided to you before the kid is shipped. I do not make arrangments for shipping until I have this and you have been informed of the results and you state your approval. If the kid does not pass- you have the right to walk away with all your money refunded. I will not take full payment until this certificate is a go. It takes longer to get a puppy from me but I am happy.

If you are taking your puppies to the vet for checkups/physicals as they are getting the vaccinations at 6/9/12/15 weeks of age there are fewer suprises to be found for a physical when you want to sell them.

There have been times when you can tell that it is not going to be a good match for you and the breeder. It is better for the puppy/adult that you part company and go elsewhere.


wnalegria

Well..First - a good breeder DOES choose where she places her pups - I think sometimes people just don't mesh for one reason or another ...but I doubt it's anything personal Beth -

To agree with Beth - IF I were spending 2 grand I probably WOULD speak with the vet myself -It sounds like there is more involved here. I think the Breeder is a good breeder - I know how great Tino is - it says alot that Tara still has a relationship with her breeder - It really sounds like maybe things just aren't meant to be here and the good thing is - no harm done - money is refunded and everyone starts fresh.

why all of a sudden breeders are getting contacted over posts HERE is a little bothersome - it seems only for the purpose of stirring things up more.

Beth,I am sorry it didnt work out for you but I am in agreement that it is probably for the best. If you are looking for a dog for a breeding program it can take awhile to find the perfect one.

Villette, If you remember, this happened before, someplace else.It caused a HUGE problem.And it has happened here too.
There are always 2 sides to every story, but I think Beth was just venting to her friends and I really think that whomever did contact the breeder was indeed trying to stir up some trouble.What other reason can there be?

No accusation, just a question Kim. I asked about it bc of what you wrote in your original post. I don't know what "research" you did? Could you explain what you meant by that? And as far as "once again".. I don't know what you are talking about here either? So I don't see any need for apologies.

My sympathies to Beth, but why does this have to do with anyone else? Give your opinion and move on. Why would whomever notified this breeder PM the admin? He doesn't have time to deal with bickering; he's trying to keep this site up.

Well, I'm at a loss for words here, but I do not think that someone should be blowing the whistle every time they think that a line is being crossed. That does just stir things up more and that's sad.

Beth, keep on looking. You'll find your baby soon! :)