opinions ~ pedigree vs. pedigree
 

I have a choice to get a male puppy from two litters. I wanted to get some imput about the two pedigrees.

This little guy is 8 weeks this week.

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These two are 6 weeks. Pictures from 4weeks old.

The pedigree is of their dam. Both litters have the same sire, Durrer's Renior.

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Alyssa,

Both pedigrees are nice...now it's just a wait see on the puppies.

I love the face on the little 8 week old.

I agree that both pedigrees are equally as nice. Just watch those puppies and see how they turn out.

Both very nice pedigrees and this little male will of course have lots of changes but your chances for nice quality with this strong a pedigree are good.

oh my that 8 week puppy is beautiful.!His face is just to die for.Good luck!

Both pedigrees look good. I love the face on the eight week old.

I don't know anything about pedigrees, but I agree with everyone else that the 8-week old looks adorable. Give the youngers ones more time though, and they could be even cuter, with a better stance, etc. Good luck choosing!

I have a problem. . .she's liking how he's turning out, but doesn't want to wait until 6 months before I commit..I don't get it (???)

Do I take him at 12 weeks, even though he won't be a for sure show pup?

It depends on what you want to do....

I can only give advise...no show dog should be obtained until the age of 6, 7 months or later. Remember this is too big of an investment if it doesn't turn out. What are this breeder's guarantees/contract like? Will she guarantee him as a show prospect. At 8 weeks of age, it's too early to tell what will happen....Nice rears, toplines can go off. Bite can go off. "the I told the other breeder that I told you about him first and if you don't take him she can" may or may not be a bit of a hard pressure being put on you.

I know that I wouldn't think about letting a dog go out as a show dog until I have them run them through. It's my reputation on the line, so I'm gonna make sure that who is ever going to purchase a show dog purchases the best. So, anything I wouldn't keep in my program, I wouldn't place as a show pup Just my opinion......

But, the final decision is yours....

8 week old show puppy
 

mardelin, hope I spelled that correct.

Great answer to this girl..also impressed at your saying about your reputation. And not wanting to sell a show puppy you would not keep yourself..I like that, I am impressed..and why the hurry to put pressure on a person when the pup is 8 weeks old, gee a pet dog does not leave until at least 12 or more weeks old...but nice pedigree...who is the breeder..


pooh's mum

I do want him as a show pup. But, since I'm going into Jr, I don't know if I should take him because I can still go into competition if he doesn't turn out, or get a different pup. If he doesn't turn out as a show dog, I can still do Jr Showmanship with him because there is no judging on the dog.

She said he could go at 12 weeks, but she wouldN'T guarentee him as a show dog. She stated to me that she had a male that she was going to be showing, so she wasn't keeping this little guy.

I don't know if ther is truely another person interested. She said "breeder" which would seem like she wouldn't sell a puppy to. Who knows...

I don't know..I'm really torn about this. I'm getting stuck between having a good dog, but yet it's Jr, so I could take him, and even if he doesn't turn out, I could still show him.

I can't find a reason why she would be pressuring me to make a decition. If I decide I don't want him after all, it's not like she won't be able to sell him. I wonder if she's not going to let me wait until he's 6 months old to decide, because he's going into Jr Showmanship anyway..

I asked her to send me a copy of her contract as it would be for the sale of this puppy. I'll post it when she send it.

Mary, thank you!!

Kathy Murphy is the breeder.

Mary,always has great advise:)

The thing of it is, she is not selling him to you as a show prospect but thinks he could be. No guarantees. It is a chance you take like I did on my last little girl. She COULD be a show prospect and was sold to me as a POSSIBLE and she has the look so it's up to me. Now, if you do not want to take that chance that he could or could not be, then you just need to wait and purchase one that is already six or seven months old and let me tell you, they are hard to come by. Most of the show breeders that have a show prospect are going to keep them and who can blame them. My opinion and it may be wrong, is that if the breeder keeps the dog till it's six or seven months old then puts it up for sell, i would wonder why she is not keeping it for her/himself to show? Sometimes that happens because of too many dogs with the same bloodline or something. I don't know.

Sugars Mom has a good point. A six or seven month old show dog as your first is really hard to find unless you know this breeder really well. I don't remember if she is close enough to watch progress but I hope so and see if she would go 16 weeks. That's not going to make alot of difference but when you are starting out you have to gamble once in awhile and your changes might be better this way and that way you might know if she is serious about you taking a prospect. It's six of one, half dozen of the other and I think the most important thing in all of it is having a breeder you know well and that doesn't happen over night. I could never in a million years pick out a puppy, they are all cute. Have you met her at the shows, if not make a point to do that as much as you can.

Kathy Murphy is a wonderful breeder and has some of the top bloodlines in the country. I would buy a 12 week old puppy from a great bloodline as opposed to a 6 or 8 mo. old from a lesser line. I would also buy the one Kathy likes best as no one is as good a judge of how a dog will turn out as his experienced breeder. Just my humble opinion. Also, if a breeder is going to keep a puppy until it's 6 months or so and deems it show quality, you can expect to pay 2 to 4 times as much for the same dog.
Trish in California

We both posted at the same time. I'm not sure I like the fact that she is letting this pup go full registration. I wish she said she would limit it and then remove once it shows promise. I'm really leary of this now. What do the rest of you think??

I stand by my advice......I know I waited for my first show prospect for awhile...My breeder (very reputable show breeder) kept my pup until 6 months of age, any reputable would. A good contract would protect you, the dog and herself. Junior Handlers go in with good representations of the breed too....

Again it is my advice....Alyssa, I only wish you lived closer.....I'd work with you. The fact that your immediate plans are for Junior Handling should not make any difference on the quality of the dog......still a big investment.

I didn't know you could remove a limit...

She said full reg, no co-ownership, and if he doesn't turn out, I can still show him, or neuter him and sell him as a pet...would that make any difference?

I don't know how other breeders operate or their contracts....I can only offer advice and hope it helps her make her decision....It's tough because I'm sure Alyssa's emotions are into play......I know mine were.....it's hard not to make a decision with ones heart.

I can only offer advice based on my experiences of being on both sides; first at purchasing my own first show dog and now being being a exhibitor breeder.

Me toooo! I would love to come and have you teach me..I need lots of teachin'. lol hmmm looking for a summer assistant?..jk

Yes, I can see Alyssa's heart is longing for this pup. Mary I agree with you and always do about the 6 months and even that way you miss the worry of liver shunt showing up in the pup. But I can see all sides and I don't like the fact a breeder would gamble with full registration and some times you have to lead with your head but not necessarily the first time.....I didn't;)

I know..I do really want this pup...I've wanted one for a almost a year now...

I'm so glad I have you guys though. I want to do what's best, but it's just so hard to tell. . .hearts are strong against heads...:p

I know this is a hard decision you have to make....you have so many things to think of....

Have you obtained your parents support on this matter....that would be your # one priority...since without it you can't proceed any further?

With that pedigree behind the dog, at 6mo. you would be paying at least $3,000. and up if the breeder is sure it's show quality. I'm guessing she if offering a younger puppy at a much reduced price. Buying a show dog is always a gamble. Most show breeders will keep a puppy or two for them- selves and at 6 to 8 mos. sell the one they like the least. If the breeder is trying to get a bitch to show, it's not uncommon to sell the males and not keep them ,tying up kennel space. A 5 pound male puppy who will be a nice representation of the breed will sell to a pet home just as fast, so the breeder has no incentive to keep it until it's 6 months. I do agree, if I was selling him, I would hold on to full AKC reg. until I knew what your intentions are.
That said, this breeder is one who produces some magnificent show dogs. You have a better chance with a younger puppy from Kathy Murphy then a guaranteed show quality dog from a lot of others. Show quality is in the eye of the beholder, and a lot of dogs with Champion in front of there name aren't my idea of a show dog. Just the best of what is in the ring at the time they won.
Trish In California

pup
 

At some point you are going to have to take a chance..since JR showmanship does not concentrate on conformation..it is your handling abilites, correct, then you have nothing to lose? IF regular conformation is your only goal, then you are taking a big chance...especially since your parents do not want to spend alot on a pet...

Remember, what one breeder may think is showable, another will not...seriously, have you ever considered starting with another breed? Many breeds can be picked at 12 weeks with confidence they will mature as a show pup...but not the Yorkie...out of the mouths of many judges of late.."Yorkies are the most difficult breed to judge"...that is due to what you see at 12 weeks is most often not what you see at 12 months..
Even a toy dog like a Maltese is so much easier to finish...they are suppose to be white..how many people have a difficult time deciding what is white and what is not...Good luck

PS..if this breeder is known for producing terrific show dogs, why are these being placed at a pet age, but maybe showable??

Alyssa,
If a breeder keeps a puppy until it is 6 or 8 months and it turns out to be show qualty ,then that breeder will have her pick of show homes who are experinced at showing and have finished championships on dogs before. Your compatition to purchase a good show dog is going to be tought. Only you can deside if you want to take a chance on a younger dog. As you can show it in junior even if it won't become a champion, you have the fun of showing and a wonderful companion. After you have sucesfully shown in juniors with your dog, breeders will be more willing to take a chance on selling you a show dog.
Many, many people aproch breeders wanting an animal to show and don't stick with it. So you can see why they are leary of selling to someone without a history of showing.
Just the fact Kathy Murphy is willing to let you have full registration means she has faith in you.
Kathy partners with Betty Ann Durrer on many of her dogs. They both have people standing in line to buy one of there dogs to add to there breeding program.

pup
 

Okay..in that case buy it...somebody has to make a decision..LOL