Topline Problem!
 

Hi!

I have 6 months old female. I bought her when she was 3 months. I was looking for very promising show potenciale yorkie. The breeder asure me that she is very good, very perspective and very beautifull puppy. From the start I was not sure about her topline, becouse it didn`t look very well. I belive the breeder, becouse she has a lots of experiance, and thought this is becouse of her hair. But after that I was looking at her topline every day and find out that her topline is not level and her back is higher. She appears to be low in the shoulders and has a low tail set. I wrote to breeder and she is still trying to convince me that this is normal and that she will change. I can`t belive that becouse the situation is the same since I got her and didn`t changed at all.

So please tell me what do you think, what experience do you have. Is it true that the rear is almost always higher at this age, by a yorkie and that this will change later????

i am not a show breeder but there are some here. i have read thru some threads where the topline can change either get better or get worse. i hope they come online soon for you to discuss with them

The topline can go through changes while the legs and chest are growing and filling out. I've found that this has usually leveled out by 6 monthes in a female though. The tailset is a different matter all together. A low tailset will mess up the silhouette and will not get any higher as the dog matures. My mentor said to take a look at the pup at 8 weeks and not look back until they are finished growing. Do you have an exhibitor/breeder near you that can go over the dog? Is there a show in your area so that maybe a judge can look over her? Sounds to me like you need a second opinion other than your breeder.

Do you have pictures of her ?

Who is the breeder of your Yorkie ?

A good topline shouldn't falter. It can go through changes but, when watching a dog gait it should stay together.

A breeder/exhibitor begins assessing their potentials at 8 weeks....and holds on to the potentials until approximately 7 months. A show potential should never be bought as early as 3 months of age.

The tail set will never correct itself...if there as a puppy it will remain as such. It should feel as if it is coming directly from the spine, no drop

topline
 

Do you have any photo's..and do you have a guarantee as to show quality?
In my experince, I do not find top lines change drastically...I do not recall a good top line at 12 or 16 wks or 6 months going bad...it is set.
I have rarely seen a roach back change for the better..but I have seen one bitch who was very low in the shoulders as a puppy, suddenly have her front legs grow to a level top line abotu 12 months..but only once.

If you trust the breeder and she has sold you a potential from a line of solid top lines, then all you can do is wait and trust she will replace the pup if it is not what you were promised...or compensate in price.

Thanks to all for your opinions. Breeder who sold me the puppy is very famous breeder and she is the judge too. Her pedigree is also good.
I could belive that this could change maybe till she stop growing but not later. But breeder said to me that this can change till 18 months???? ;) This is very hard to belive, becouse yorkies stop growing at 7 months.
She did not gave me guarantee that she will be good for shows on paper, she just told me that a lots of times. She said this to me by mail too. She gave me only teeth guarantee.

About pictures, I don`t think you will see anything from pictures, becouse the topline can look good on pictures if I raise her like it looks good. But the fact is that when she moves the topline is not level.
I will put a short video on this forum and this is the only way you will able to see her topline in movement.

O.k. here you can find some short videos:

http://motiono.com/watch/OsRNMTct
http://motiono.com/watch/OmRNMiRm
http://motiono.com/watch/msRNMioN

topline
 

All I could get is 3 "still" photo's..this is an extremely tough call. I can not say your Yorkie has a bad topline..there looks to be slight dip at the shoulder area, but it could be due to the fact she is a touch long in the body..I do feel her topline would be much better if she were more compact..

I am told in some countries they tend to show a larger in leg and body type as we have in many parts of the USA.
If the seller is a very famous breeder/judge with a good reputation and top pedigrees, then you will have to wait it out...is she close to you? If so, at some point you will be walking into the ring with her breeding and if it has a bad topline etc, I would think she would be embarrassed..but that is my thinking.

From the clips she does seem a bit long in the body, slightly raised over the loin, and with a bit of a low tailset. She's cute though. Has the breeder seen the clips? I'd talk to her again before I put her in the ring. I agree that her reputation is on the line.

Breeder lives 450 km far away from me. I did sent her this videos and suggest her to take the puppy back or reduce the price, becouse the price was to high for per quality yorki. If her topline stays like it is I think we have no chance in ring! But I got answer that I should not listen to other breeders becouse they are jealous ;) All breeders I was talking to said they can`t belive this topline will change, maybe it will a little bit, but it will not become a perfect!
I have this filling that famous breeders somethimes don`t care if they sold a bad puppy. I heard later she sold a very bad yorkie to a president of yorkie club too ;) So as I can see she don`t care a lot.

So what can I do???? Do you have any idea??? I wrote her again and ask her why she don`t want to take her back if she is so sure that she is very good for shows and that this topline will change. In this case she could sell her to someone else for the same or even higher price wouldn`t she???? Yorkie is now 6 months old, she almost change her teeths so if she is so good, she could sell her for more money.

bitch
 

What can any of us here gain or lose by giving you an honest opinion of your Yorkie? You will find some breeders running another down when you are in the buying process..but your bitch is bought, why would I evaluate her unfairly? My opinion will pull no weight in your favor with the breeder..or anyone elses opinion in the Yorkie world as it sounds right now.

I think you are stuck...it is possible to breed this bitch to a quality champion and hope for your own for the ring? Her top line may be better, but not good enough for the ring as she matures...you can decide at the time of breeding age. IF you want to throw in the towel and place her as a pet, she would do well, but if not, all you can do it wait and wait some more...

If you are anxious to get a ring dog, then look for one in the 6 to 9 month age...with a guarantee of being a show quality..NOT potential...you see, you were sold a Yorkie with potential, not a show qualtiy Yorkie...show quality means..RING READY..a potential starts with the conformation, pedigree etc to develop into a ring quality dog...but there is also a possiblity it will not...so we use the term POTENTIAL...

Best wishes to you...

I agree with Yorkierose.
Also another way to check topline is when the dog is wet. Ane when the head is down eating you should see a straight line.
I've had Yorkies for 30+ years but have only been showing 1 year this month.
have learned a few expensive($$$$$) lessons. Most top show breeders will not sell show pup until at least 6 mos. old and then usually only to a show home.
Your girl looks to have a very pretty face.:)

"you were sold a Yorkie with potential, not a show qualtiy Yorkie".

I understand that but I thought that buying a potencial show quality puppy means that at time when it is sold it looks good and promissing. Of course development can go bad and this is the buyer risk. But if at that time when breeder is selling the puppy the topline looks bad he should not sell it like promissing one. And if he has a lots of experience he is the one who should know which one is promissing and wich one isn`t! Otherwise what is the different between show potencial and pet puppy unless of course the price!

And what I think is that I was sold a pet puppy not potential one, becouse when I bought her she already had this topline!

Very true, but as a show buyer you also need to have an eye for what is good and what isn't. If at the time you obtained the dog and you saw the problem, the dog should have gone back.

bitch
 

Yes, I see your point. Your bitch did not have the best top line at the time of sale and have been told it can take 18 months...it really is not fair. At 6 months you could begin showing her and now must wait it out to see if the breeder is correct. Would she take her back for partial payment for an older one?
Do you have any club members/show breeders who would back you and talk with the breeder? Might be tough since she is a judge...they will not want to ruffle her feathers..

The breeder don`t answers to my mails!

I had a chance to sell her for the same price I bought her, but I think I can`t do that :( I love her and I really hope this topline will change a little bit more.
Here are two new pictures. They are not very good, but at least you can see topline.

topline
 

New pictures

puppy prospect
 

In the first picture, she is stacked great!!!! She looks really good. Its hard for me to see the low tail set. In the second picture, I think she is not stacked as well as her front legs are a little to out in front of the dog. I didnt get to see the videos as I was unable to pull them up on the computer. It kept saying video not there.??? She looks to have great color and seems very cobby and square. But its hard to tell just from pictures. I would have another breeder or judge look at her also. Lynn

puppy prospect
 

After looking at the pictures again, I can see a little hump in her back in the first picture. Does she walk with this slight hump also? I definately would get a few expert opinions on her. If you do keep her, I would breed her to the stud with the best top-line you can get. I would look and see what he has produced in the past as well. Good luck!!! I know how discouraging this can be. Lynn

pic
 

My question is this... If, when she is free standing or walking, does her top line look like the first photo...that is a photo of a good top line, but does she lose it when she is not stacked or leash pulling front end up...if she looks like the second, then of course you do not want to show her...

YorkieRose the answer to your question is that somethimes when she is standing by herself her topline looks great and another time don`t. It all depends how she stands. When she is walking her back looks a little bit higher. Only when she saw something and she start barking her tail is much up and her head is high than her topline is good also.

It this good at least for breeding or should I sell her???

pup
 

This is how I see the problem...you have waited a long time to find out this Yorkie has a top line you can not use for the ring. The breeder told you it would correct, only to find out, it did not correct. So, when you breed her you will have to watch her pups to see how they turn out..you will never be able to keep anything with peace of mind, knowing that pup could take after the dam.
If you have a person who wants to give her a good home and you trust them to do so, then I would think along those lines...but it is your decision as the time you have to invest in watching puppies grow up..best wishes..

puppy
 

after showing for over 30 years. i would say the top line you have now , is what you will always have. not good. i am so sorry. dyanna:animal-pa

I have a little girl, and i would like to ask, is her topline good or bad? and could it change? I think my girl stopped growing, but i dont know she is my first dog...

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What a sweet baby girl!! I do not show Yorkies, but have owned retired Ch. and Gr.Ch. bitches for breeding stock and my cornerstone stud, Boss, was an International Ch/Gr.Ch. I have been around many level top lines! That being said, in my NON PROFESSIONAL eye/opinion, which may or may not be accurate, I see an unlevel topline. Show people have many, many ways of stacking a dog so that top line may level out some and appear more level, but I can see a slope at the front shoulder (?) and a slight rise mid back....I am anxious for one of our show people to come and give their opinion.....I love to learn about these things!!! It can be very hard to critique your own baby, to see tiny little things these sharp eyed, experienced show people/judges/handlers can spot quickly. I am wondering about the angle of her neck to body also....
Is the tip of her left ear not trimmed to a point?....it looks like her ear tip is missing in two of the pics that I can see.....

You have a beautiful baby girl.....thank you for putting her out there for us to look at and essentially critique! Please do not go solely by what I am finding and pointing out....I am not a show person and I am just looking at her as if she was one of mine I was thinking about putting in the ring!

How old is she and how does she look when she is in an alert position?

Head and neck control the muscles involved in order to bring the dog in a natural show pose. In an alert pose.
In order for this system to work naturally, the dog needs a stimulus. Something that will power the heart and soul for the body to show its full potential.
So, In order to evaluate a level topline , the dog has to bring its head high proudly in an alert position.
This move tightens the muscles of the back STRAIGHTENING THE TOPLINE (withers - back - croup) and also raises the tail - as these muscles are parts of the same set.

This move also pulls the dog forward. Eventually this will bring the forelegs and hocks vertical to the ground, So, the whole outline of the dog feels and looks absolutely amazing, as long as the dog really has it, showing its full potential.

Unfortunately when the heart does not follow, the dog can't show its full body potential, so the topline may seem week.


This is a drawing, showing how with a given stimulus (mental or physical) the head is lifted, making the dog stand over its ground. In this alert position the dog is leaning forward, tightens the muscles of the back and raises the tail, thus straightening the topline.

Welcome to Yorkie Talk Paz


It is good to know how old your female is. First I think I will say to do is either find a reputable and very experience breeder near to you or take your gal to AKC shows when you see that Yorkies are showing and ask for an informed opinion of your gals qualities. Expect them to palpate your gal all over - watch her move - and preferable a free trot ie not on lead and see a free stack of your gal.


You asked about her topline - and I would say just judging by those three pics - yes you do have a topline problem - at least in those pics I saw of her. She looks to be about 8-9mths old is that about right? She has both a dip and a roach to her back.


Also her outline in these pictures is too long - she is more rectangular than squarish and looks like her croup is long - opposite of compact.


You asked about exercises and yes there are many you can do. You can start off if you don't already give her at least one hour of exercise mainly walking but walking with purpose on different surfaces she is not getting enough general exercise.


To specifically strengthen her back muscles here you go:


a) Sit to beg - beg position is when they lift their front paws off the ground and kept them lifted - work up to her keeping this position for 1 minute.


b) Once above is solid - work her from the beg position right up to standing on her hind legs. Then back down to beg then to sit


c) Stand her on an exercise ball in a stack position - and gently push her hindquarters from side to side.


d) work a good stack feet on blocks for at least a three minute hold.


e) Work the Calvetti in walk and trot - a series of small bars set first as wide apart as she is tall.


f) Crawling forward and back along the floor.


g) Have her stand her two front paws on a low stool and hold this position.


h) Teeter totter work - find a playground and train her to walk up one side of the teeter then she pauses at the top and you slowly lower other side so that she can walk down it.


I) Underwater treadmill trotting will strengthen everything over all


j) swimming is a great overall exercise.

I just want to add something Paz - in investing in a good quality show prospect - it is ideal to get weekly pics and by four weeks old some videos of the pups. It is best of course if you can visit in person but eight weeks old is the key evaluation time for a pups structure. Here your pup will most closely resemble what structure - baring accident or injury when they are grown.


Eight weeks you might not get coat information but temperament is usually clear as well as structure.


If you have vids n pics of your gal at eight weeks old really examine now.


The other thing I promise you is that if you do these exercises at least 3x weekly along with those daily walks she will strengthen up her muscles everywhere. But if this is her underlying structure she will likely throw puppies with this inbuilt structure and if not in her first litter - maybe her third - and all puppies will carry this recessive gene.


Puppies can and often do grow up un-evenly looking at times like a horror show of faults - but with the right food nutrition exercise and care they sort themselves out.


I hope that everything works out well for you and your gal.