I like showing, the social aspect is my favorite part, but I love breeding. I am fascinated with the science and the art of breeding. I love taking mom through pregnancy, delivering pups, watching them grow, learn and see what they become. I am an avid student of genetics and structural anatomy. The goal is to someday develop a line that will make the breed proud. Hopefully I will see the fruits of my efforts before I die since I got a late start at 41.
I have yet to join my local club because politics annoy me but will do so and when the time is right I will join YTCA as well.

My dogs are bile acid tested before breeding and complete blood work is done and when I do get Radar back in December he will be in for his OFA certification on hip, knees, eyes ect....I couldn't do it when he was out on the show road but now he's coming home and all will be done concerning OFA. I have had him xrayed and from the film all is well and it was done on Cammie as well but she's only had one litter and is now spayed. But future breeding yorkies will have all tests done before being bred to insure I have healthy dogs! Both have been bile acid tested and cleared :) Of course Cammie is spayed and had only one litter of two and one is in a pet home spayed and Molly is fixing to be spayed and be in a loving pet home! I totally believe in health testing before breeding and health being of the utmost importance! I didn't get Radar until he was 18 months old and I got Cammie around the same age and I prefer showing them when they are older anyway.

I'd rather show than breed LOL...I don't like whelping at all! I love puppies when they are about 2 months old LOL...
Politics are always in the ring so I hope you join your local club soon :) You'll actually enjoy it :) As you put politics aside for the social aspect ringside you can also put aside politics within a club :) I know I do.. :)

Donna

I'm going to join, meanwhile Robert Franzoni has assured me that I don't have to be a member of the club to be a member of the family. There really are some great people showing around here. There are disagreement to be worked through even in families, I guess clubs are no different.

Of course you don't have to be a member to part of the family but at least if you join you can have a say and vote LOL :) You do have great show people in your area. You are lucky to have people in your area that are respected :)

Donna

You can get eyes and heart clearances at some shows if you happen to be at one of the shows that have those, it just never works out like that for us.
We us a cardiologist in KY, its easier for us to load up and drive two hours and get the heart clearances done, we need to make a trip for our Yorkies teens that are now 12 months or older.
I would like to use the Urine Bile Acid test instead of the blood draws, has anyone here used the Urine Bile Acid testing?

You're right about that...I was going to do that at one show for Radar and Molly but I ended up not going but Radar was there but I want to be there when it's done and not leave it up to the handler not her responsibilty and it's a lower cost. I will make sure I try and find one for the eyes and heart at a show. I don't mind the blood draw on yorkies 6 months but again that is my personal choice :) Never heard of the Urine Bile Acid testing actually.

Donna

Just curious.. now that you've spent a fortune in Radar's show career, what would you do if you brought him home did all these tests, and he did NOT clear them? Would you neuter him then?

Breeding good knees is so much more than just breeding good to good.. it's also breeding like type dogs to like type dogs of similar hock height and leg length as well as overall angulation, and over all amount of bone.

You can breed the two best knees in the world together, but if one is a tall smaller boned dog with straighter angulation, and the other is short heavy boned dog with great angulation, you still will very likely end up with not perfect knees.

Also, bile acid testing is AWESOME and it's right now the only tool we have to test our breeding animals for Liver Shunt.. but unfortunately it doesn't guarantee that they won't produce it...the gene for this can be handed down for as many as 10 or more generations...and where its' going to pop up next is like playing russian roulette...you just don't know. Its about being honest with yourself when and if it does happen to you on where it came from and what to do about that.

the reason I asked Donna about what she would do if Radar doesn't pass goes back to what Deana was just saying about not breeding a dog before it's finished. A good dog is one that is not only worthy of obtaining it's championship, but one who can also produce outstanding offspring. I have not always done this, but it makes sense to breed the dog BEFORE it's shown/finished (in the case of a male.. this is not possible in a female for most people due to coat) and see what kind of producer the dog is. It would be a real shame for someone to campaign a dog all over the country as a specials dog and pump ten thousand dollars into it's career for it to be a crappy producer.. and I'm sure it's happened more than once. :eek:

Donna..I am not singling out Radar here..this really is more hypothetical than having anything to do with Radar. :)

Becki

I've done both bile serum (blood) and urine Bile Acid Testing. My vet claims urine is more accurate.. I've heard otherwise from others.. I continue to do blood at this point...

On puppies I just do a kidney/liver pannel and wait until they are finished with vaccs and have all their perm. teeth in before I do an actual bile acid.

Becki

To answer your question....ABSOLUTELY! Would I want to pass on that to another person? NOPE! But you have to know what's behind your dog and what the lines have produced and hopefully studied the pedigree hard enough and what you put together in a breeding should help produce what you want or at least strive to what you want in a yorkie.
Of course BAT's are the only thing we have and of course it can pop up. BAT's aren't a garunatee but for now it's all we got until we get that genetic marker :)

Donna

P.S. I know you weren't singling out Radar :)

I'm with you, Donna I absolutely hate breeding. I do like the genetics of it all.. mixing all of my genetic ingredients into the pot and stirring.. lol But I hate whelping and caring for new babies.. I'm so anal about it, I obsess over them until they're up and walking.. lol I wont even leave the house for longer than half an hour in case something God forbid should happen.. sleep with a baby monitor next to my head and the base next to the babies... Why can't puppies be born a year old, in full coat.. and those that are not show quality have the phone number of their new family in their paw.. LOL Or better yet, maybe just all show quality.. and 90% FEMALE.. LOL Ohhh in a perfect world!

Good for you, Donna! :thumbup:

Donna
Here is the link for Urine Bile Acids,
Painless and more accurate is what it says. I love that!

Canine Epilepsy Resources

Dee, get to know people in your area. This doesn't mean try to talk to them minutes before they're going in the ring.. call them at home on a sunday afternoon, and just talk...or better yet, ask questions and listen! But REALLY listen. If you go into things defensively and thinking you already know it all, you'll waste your time and theirs. If you think peole have been snotty to you.. girl, you're going to have to grow a real thick skin real fast if you want to play in this playground! ;) If I threw in the towel every time someone was mean to me, I'd have a mountain of towels 10 feet high and would be into underwater basket weaving by now instead of yorkies.. LOL (a good use for all of those towels..lol)

Becki

the thing is becki that the people you mentioned last night were all standing around in a group talking to each other when my friend and I tried to join the conversation that about ten or twelve of them were having, they turned us a cold shoulder. The problem is not finding a good dog but finding someone to mentor me. One of the people you mentioned said he would come to my conformation class three weeks in a row to help me but he never showed after I drove an hour and a half each way to meet with him. I have researched and studied all kinds of things but when I decided to show, I just had to jump right in with my limited knowledge about showing and no one to help . But that's alright. I have learned to go to shows and keep to myself. Several people have mentioned those you did because they are in kentucky but they are not a friendly bunch at all and I don't even want to be like them and think I am so uppitidy that I can't help someone who is just learning. I am always willing to share what I know with new people.

Wow, you girls have been busy today.

I agree about becoming active with someone that is experience, join the local breed club if you have one, go to many shows and watch -listen -learn.
This is how I started out back a long time ago - I got a puppy and then ended up adopting two more because their owner was moving out of the country and due to quarentine could not take them with her. I worked as a vet tech and that is how they knew me. She actually approached me, since she knew I ahd one yorkie all ready (my first baby was from the MacStrouds line). Boy that brings back old times. Well, I decided to learn more about pedigrees, the standard, etc... There just wasn't enough around for me to read - what I am saying is that I read everything I could get my hands on! Now this was the late 70s. I was very lucky and met some great people in the show world and they took me under their wings and mentored me. I had some of the best in our breed. I was smart enough to listen Very carefully and watch everything. Then the next dog I got I bought well and went to the show ring myself. Then the handler came next for me, since I was still learning myself. I learned a lot from my handler too - how to handle and groom correctly. I listened more. I went to club meeting and helped, sat on the board, helped to put on Fun Matches. You learn as you go. But you do have to be very patient and learn all you can - to do it right. When I was finally decided to breed - I knew about the standard - my first ever breeding - I bred one of my girls to a champion that was compatible.

And yes, way back then - a persons word was gold. You did not have to worry much. That is not true today. With all these new registries - anyone can say anything they want. I look - I see a lot. You can also even be here and see all the goings on that happens. Not good. So yes, things have gotten really hard for a newbie to get their first good yorkie to show. We just really care about our breed and our dogs so much - we have to be overly cautious today.

And yes, you can see many - way too many websites out there - it just proves many people are just breeding and not caring what they have. Ugh!! I have seen some pretty bad web sites out there and looked at their sires and dames - oh... it makes me cringe! There are some really bad representation of the breed and they are breeding them - for what main reason - one guess - $$ or they are pretty studid! I have never made money - in fact just the opposite - and always in the hole. I say I work for my dogs. Shows, testing, food, care expenses are high. I pay it because I know it is the right thing to do - I am proving the quality of my dogs, I love the hobby, and especially I love my dogs. I have met some really great frineds this way too.

When I returned to showing/breeding (and I hate breeding too - it makes me too nervous. One reason I do not do it often) after my long break I tried to find a local breed club in my area, since we moved from where we lived to another state. No luck - we have no yorkie club in my whole state. So I did the next best thing - I joined my all breed AKC club. I am active and participate, and learn more. We have some great speakers every month. I also just ran my first silent auction. I did not know at first what to do - but you just have to get there and help. I actually had a lot of fun! I also showed my two hopefuls and was a great learning experience all around. We also put on a pointed show twice a year in conjunction with two other clubs - so we have three shows together. It is a pretty big show. One should always be learning. I have two champions now and hopefully more on the way. Not bad for just three years being back into showing/breeding.

And it was a lot of work to catch up on researching the new lines. I would actually trace the different lines back to what I knew from the first time I use to show. It was a lot of research, but well worth it!

Keep going Dee and try to talk to them seperately. Many people have tried showing and then leave quickly - so some may think why get close and try. If you keep going - you will show them that you are here for good and want to stick with it.
I have had someone I did not know try and hang-out when several of us are talking and it feels weird - like they are trying to listen in and I think - who is this person. So just do it a different way - come up to them seperately after showing and talk or while you are waitiing for ring time - just say hello. You just need to get your face out there. It takes time, but they will get to know you.

Jan calls the group that she shows with the meanies! I guess there is one in every state. When I first started showing I hung out with the other newbies. There was the newbies and the veterns, no mixing. I have noticed after a couple of years that there is alot more mixing going on. We (the newbies) don't share history like the veterns but we are slowing earning their trust. Trust is often hard won but invaluable so just hang in there and give them time to see that you're for real.

Anything worth having is NOT easy.. nor does it happen quickly. Oh believe me, when I started with my yorkies at the age of 20 something I was totally an instant gratification kind of girl.. with age and maturity has come amazing patience (being the parent of 3 kids, one teenager and one toddler will help with this as well..rofl). I didn't experience the snootyness with the people Dee is referring to, and approached at least one of them as a very green nooby myself..they were very helpful to me, kind and respectful, and I will always hold that person in high regard for the kindness they bestowed on me when they certinaly could have been as dee puts it "uppity". Just keep at it.. the next time you see these people, be friendly, say hello and smile.. the next time you see them, strike up a casual conversation, compliment thier dog, ask them to show you how to do something, ask if you can watch them do a topnot.... then build the relationship from there...slowly. Be courteous and respectful and appreciative and it's very hard for people to treat you poorly if they have any kind of a soul if you are being kind and courteous to them. But don't expect miracles over night.. it just won't happen.

I wonder also if maybe it's more difficult for someone starting out showing who has already been breeding for a number of years as a pet breeder.. It would be a little more difficult to take that person seriously depending on their breeding practices. I personally started showing FIRST..then bred my first litter almost 2 years later, so I guess it's like apples to oranges in my case.

I would guess that it is harder to get them to trust you if you started out as a pet breeder. I bred one litter out of pet quality pups and quickly found that wasn't what I wanted to do so I started over. Excellence is my goal and that's going to take good quality stock. Obtaining and breeding quality dogs is going to take time. You just have to be totally commited and give them time to see that you are.
As far as the urine test for Bile Acids, it would make sense that a 24 hour urine test would be a better indicator since it is the best indicator for hormone levels as well. I hate the idea of the blood draw, I'll discuss the urine test with my vet and a friend of mine who is working with Dr. Center. Problem is, how do you get them to pee in the cup!? LOL

I was under the impression they stuck a needle into the bladder and drew out the urine. :(

That doesn't sound too friendly!!

My son is a vet tech and I had asked him about urine samples and they can express urine by I assume putting pressure on the bladder.
Of course you would need a vet/vet tech to do that, don't try that on your own.
I can see us all running around with cups trying to catch it ROFL.

I was at a dog show today and was discussing this very thing with a friend,I will tell you all what I told her...Due to the lack of character of the people that I have had the misfortune to deal with I will be breeding only for myself from now on. That is why I am in dogs anyway,to have dogs to show for myself. I do not breed for anyone else. There are a select few friends that have my dogs. I know that the few I trust will never stab me in the back, they are not my friends because I have dogs that they covet, the only thing that they might covet is my company and my friendship.

I hope that does not seem too selfish but in this day and age noone seems to have any idea what a contract is, only a loophole. Nor do they care about anyone elses hard work, only how much money they can make off of the hard work of others or better yet the fame that name might bring. Everyone will tell you what you want to hear until they get what they want...then trust means nothing.



Good luck to you all in your endeavors.


Laurie and the NicNak Yorkies

Isn't it just too sad that it has to be this way. I like what Bev (Tiffany's) said in a YT magazine article. She said that we are all here to help each other to learn and grow. There are still some sincere people in the world who believe in standing by their word. I guess the challenge is to find those people. I'd like to mentor someone someday and return the gift that is being given to me.

Wow! Went on errands and made dinner and this thread took a wierd turn! Having never been to a show yet, and just now having my own yorkie for two yrs., I do not understand why persons who have the same interest would not enjoy talking to one another / have a special commaraderie. I did , however, get my feelings hurt earlier when certain ones of you LOL'd at my Hungarian girly. You know who you are... he he ....
The point I wanted to make was only that it is a hard egg to crack around NA to get a high quality dog. You all possess them but are protective of them and that is your right. But don't laugh at me for doing what I have to do to get myself a pretty dog with a good pedigree. Which,by the way, includes international champions of lines which you would not be familiar with as you have obviously not done your homework abroad.
And so., when the time comes that I want to possess two lovely champion sired yorkies who will in turn produce like puppies, I will just bypass all of the snobbiness and go get them! Then, if you would like to purchase one of my pups , you can fill out MY form and I will put you on a wait list and if you are worthy, you might get a call.

PS. This does not apply to everyone one this thread, only the couple who found my plight amusing .I mean, for goodness sakes, you people eat your young!

You know, I've been trying very hard to be a good girl and keep my mouth shut for a very long time now... I have taken a year hiatus from yorkie talk, and came back just for this thread to find that nothing has changed.

Your sense of ENTITLEMENT is the very reason why N/A breeders are so TIGHT handed with their lines and the people they choose to entrust them to. What the heck gives you the right to buy dogs (from hungry or brazil no less) with FABULOUS mostly N/A pedigrees, smack um together and produce puppies that you then are going to have a waiting list of WORTHY people to pay you a fortune for. Was it your 20-30 years of hard work that went into making those puppies? NO. Yours only took 63 days to cook um, and 12 weeks to raise them, yet you get to ride on the coat tails of others who worked their BUTTS off for decades to create the dogs you desire to buy so you can create beautiful pet puppies and take all the credit (not to mention $$$) for yourself...? Do you not see something wrong with that picture????????

Tami you get yourself a small soup ladle with a long handle to sneak under them when they squat!...rofl...no kidding it works!

You know this thread was started in Dec, 2005

Oh Good! You knew exactly who I was calling out....
First let me assure you that I have no desire to make money off of yorkies. Gia is my FIRST dog and I am 55 yrs old! Hubby would not let me have animals in the house as he was not raised with them. And so... I raised my two beautiful daughters to adulthood, and off they went ... I had empty nest... you know the story.. and he gave in and I got my precious Gia.It took two years of looking / begging/ and alot of talking to breeders but I knew what I wanted and it was not being offered to me . Why should I be denied a beautiful girl just because I didn't get it from you? I have already stated that I would have loved to have Prestigeous 's fabulous little baby but I know she is special and will make the ring probabley. There were some sites with inferior dogs without pedigrees from obvious puppy mills, I even visited some so called kennels but they were just plain sad.
So why be mad at me because I went after what I wanted. After all, I have told you I love the breed and would NEVER
ever put a pet through pain of successive breedings ,etc.
I don't even want to show them. Just have the joy of the raising of some litters that are as special as I can make them be. ANd yes, I might sell one or two but only to
important people like the serious breeders on this site if they were interested. But its not about the money , it is
about me doing what I want with the best quality of stock that I can afford at the time.
It is the American way.
You just didn't have the right to make fun of me .