Tina, please don't take this as being negative about your girl, because I don't mean it that way.. but I don't know how anyone can tell anything about the topline in the picture because of the way the dog is stacked... she's posting forward six inches, and is overangulated a good four in the back... If you'll notice in a lot of the pictures of hungarian puppies, they have the dogs so overangulated and their tails smooshed up so hard they have "U" shaped toplines.. I have no idea why they do this as the dog COULD look nice if it were stacked correctly. I will stand behind what I said before, I think a LOT of hungarian dogs have very very very steep shoulders, and otherwise extremely poor fronts, which among other things, makes for a very untractive topline.

Becki

I know my girls have great toplines since they are here with me at home and have grown up here. I see them move and they are great! If my one girl was bad representation, I know the owner of the stud I used would not have lt me breed to her male. She is picky too and very well respected.

Like I said before - you can have great and bad yorkies - no matter where you go in the world. Please do not classify all dogs bad in one country just because you Think so. Get your hands on some and see some more. And my other girl won over many other yorkies at a Speciality show (actually two Speciality shows). She showed well. Her color is unbelievable and so is her silky coat. But most of all I am very picky about structure. A good dog must have good bone structure - it is the foundation of the dog.

I have seen a lot of really bad representation of dogs here in America too, but you do not hear me say that many dogs here in America have bad toplines. It is because you will see bad and good toplines in all countries.

My last photo was just stacking a puppy and I know how she stacks with me. Nothing wrong. I was just sharing a photo of her when she was young and she does not look that bad.

Okay - you believe what you want and I know what I believe. We agree to disagree. I own both American and Hugarian Yorkies and I like them both. I feel them, see them move, and they live with me. If they had a bad topline - I would know about it and they do not.

Ditto :thumbup: I wish the European breeders would have more control with Limited registrations or you must show. I know when I got my last girl - she was very picky and I had to promise to show her and she had to make sure i was showing already or I could not get her. So some are trying.

Laurie,
I have always loved your dogs.
You have worked your tail off with your line and have done one heck of a job and it shows. I see many Yorkies I think is beautiful and of course when I look at the ped, I will see your lines behind it too. :)
Yours dogs are breathtaking but I am so sure you already know that :)

Tina, no need to get defensive.. I wasn't talking about your dogs in particular.. or ALL hungarian dogs, I said a LOT... and I'll agree with you a LOT of North American dogs have bad toplines as well...usually a different kind of bad, but bad none the less.. LOL.. again, didn't say ALL.. I'm not picking on you or your dogs.. promise! Nothing I've posted since the beginning of this thread had anything to do with you in any way form or fashion. :D

Becki

Thanks Becki! I just wanted to make sure you did not mean my dogs. I have put a lot of hard work in them, showing, training, researching, testing to make sure what I had was good. They also come from really good strong lines and I am also supporting those breeders in the back of my girls lines for all the hard work they have done too.

And Laurie - great to see you here And posting! You have some gorgeous dogs and have worked very hard. It shows!

It is all about learning and researching. And going back to the drawing board when what you thought would work did not and other times congratulating when it worked out so well. It is all about knowing the standard, lines and what is behind them, and do what is right to protect the breed. It is a lot of work, but ultimetly worth it. We owe it to our breed to be the best we can.

Becki is correct in that I have been to Europe and I have seen the dogs. I can tell you that under all that coat is nothing I would want, you need to have your hands on the dog and see it move to understand this. Why are the Europeans coming from there to the US and Canada to get dogs? They need to improve on structure, as I have always said you can put all the icing you want on the cake but if the cake is bad it does not matter how pretty it is, you cannot serve it.
I have been friends with Beate of Camparis for many years and I suppose if I wanted anything from Europe I could have gotten whatever I wanted, I never saw anything (other than our breedings at Camparis of course) that I had to have.
A while back i had one, I did not like anything that came out of that dog..YUCK. In poland the Govt encourages people to breed dogs for money, it is a business and only a business and a good way to make money in a poor country.
Hungarian dogs are improving of course, as they have been breeding with North American dogs and it has improved their lines.
And to those of you who complimented my dogs I thank you, it is all about trying to improve the breed and breeding just for ME LOL...

Laurie! You know I love your dogs! What can one say negative about NicNak dogs? Nothing that I can see :) I do love Aero lines also. I just love the Canadian lines myself. Great structure and movement in Aero and NicNak. I have to have a good structured healthy yorkie over anything else, the coat is just icing on the cake as you say :) Hope to see your beautiful dogs in NY :)

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

In the Dec 2007/Jan 2008 Issue of the YTM (red background w/ Scruffy's Playboy Image on the front) On page 52-58 there is an excellent article with illustrations written by the late, great Jay Ammon on Fronts. I reccomend everyone who is interested (and owns the magazine) read this article, then put your hands on your dogs and FEEL the bones...and compare to Jay's illustrations. You will learn so much by getting to tap into just this tiny fraction of the Knowledge Jay had, and putting your hands on your own dogs. The key is going into this excercise with an open mind.. kennel blindness is the sure defeat of any breeding program. Be honest with yourself on what you're feeling, and then if something needs correcting.. you'll know where to start. :)

Laurie is right, many breeders in Poland, Hungary etc love to get their hands on US and Canadian dogs. However, much to the extreme disappointment of breeders in N.America that did trust their dogs to Europe they have found that puppies from their lines end up being sold back to the Us and Canada at 10, 12 weeks, for show dogs to anyone that will pay them for them.
In some cases, they end up in the hands of people that do not want to show but breed breed breed and sell puppies saying they have such and such pup whose grandsire is so and so from over here, or goes back to that well known kennel in the US or Canada. In many cases the buyers buying from Europe were turned down by the breeder in US or Canada.
There is no point in trying to put contracts on a dog sold to Europe as contracts are not legal there and unenforceable.
I ran into someone in my area that bought Hungarian females for the point of breeding. I know exactly where they came from where they bought from. Why not buy local? Buyer didn't want contracts.
So for the most part, it leaves a real bad taste in my mouth when I run into people with dogs from Hungary Poland Russia, why not buy local or at least within Canada or the US? Never mind, I know the answer.
I have not had any trouble yet buying a Yorkie or getting a stud service from any well known breeder in Canada or the US. I think it is generally known I am not going to betray that trust with their lines anymore than i would put my own line in the wrong hands as I haven't done that in the 13 years or so that I have been in showing/breeding which means I am still a newcomer.

Yes, Lorraine this is so sad when this happens. Reason I do not sell any of my dogs with an open registry. All of mine are sold on Limited Registration and strict spay/neutered contract or sapeyed/neutered before they leave if older. I sold One dog with an open registry about 2 years ago and she had several show breeders recommendation through references I checked them out and all seem great. I did everything I was suppose to do. It is so sad that she is breeding this dog too many times to suit me and found out this is really a pet home. Unfortunetly she has several other well known lines from other show breeders. So I was not the only one doped. Lesson learned!! In the olden days we did not have to worry about this so much and usually did not happen. So just returning 3 years ago - I did not know enough then. I do Now!!!

Incidences such as the one that Tina described are what makes it so hard for someone to get started in showing. It is very difficult for a newcomer to get a good dog so they end up in the ring with a mediocre dog with no pedigree. It's easy to get discouraged when you are just learning the ropes and do not have a dog that has what it takes to win. Even if you're not interesting in breeding I can see where the European dogs would have appeal. I've been on both sides of this fence and feel the frustration of both the established show breeders and those of us that are new to the sport. If the newcomers all get frustrated and quit there will be no one to show dogs in 20 years or so.

I agree totally!!!!

There is no point in trying to put contracts on a dog sold to Europe as contracts are not legal there and unenforceable This is exactly the point I was trying to make as well!


I have not had any trouble yet buying a Yorkie or getting a stud service from any well known breeder in the US. I haven't had this problem either!

I see no reason to import when there are very nice dogs here and if you do right and show that you are doing right by the breed and do not misrepresent yourself then you shouldn't have a problem getting a good yorkie in North America. It may take time to gain the trust of a good breeder but it takes time, patience, and having that great mentor and it seems that with patience and the desire you will succeed if you know you are doing right by this fabulous breed!


Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

There are three big changes that have occured over the years that has had a large impact on breeders who have worked so hard on their lines and gotten them to the point they are - exquisite and the reason they have to be so careful.
1. Price of selling even a pet puppy has skyrocketed beyond reason. Plastic has made it possible to buy whatever may be the current whim for the purchaser. Many dog sellers which are what they are, are lining up to sell their wares hopefully with a champ grandsired or whatever nonsense they come up with including rare colours. biggest buck for the bang they can get is their main motive, not the breed.
2. It is so very seldom that anyone is willing to keep their word. At one time, a promise and a handshake would do it, not anymore. Even a written contract is no longer abided by with someone finding a loophole somewhere knowing full well what the intent of the person they bought from is.
3. Very seldom do you find a newcomer with the patience and understanding of what it will take to convince a reputable breeder you are indeed honourable and be willing to be mentored by the long time breeder or indeed listen to them and learn all the intricacies about the breed and the dog show world.
When i started out I went to dog shows for years, asked questions, etc show breeders remembered seeing me around before I even approached them for what I was looking for.
Suspicions are going to come up if you insist you want to start with a female to show and especially if you don't want to have a contract. Is your intent actually to breed? How many show breeders have fallen into that problem so often will, if you are lucky, offer a male on a coownership.
Many newcomers do not understand the term paying your dues. That means learning how to groom the show dog, handle as well as the professional handler or long time Breeder/owner/exhibitor. That means taking it on the chin if you lose with a nicer dog when a lesser dog has been put up because the judge is judging the wrong end of the lead. Or did you actually do a poor handling job and make your dog look not very good?
That means hanging in there when you realize you are not going to buy a group winning dog just like that instead you have to have the patience to put in a lot of years and breed your own.
The newcomer has no idea that long time breeder paid the same dues over the years to great expense and big disappointments.
So, in spite of all the obstacles, how much of a fancier of the breed are you really? Are you willing to do the best you can with what you have, pay your dues and hang in there until you have the years and experience behind you?
In my humble opinion, there are far too many newcomers that think they can buy fame and alcolades and avoid the years of experience and disappointments the long time seasoned well known show breeder has gone through. Are you willing to wait and deal directly with that breeder or go through the back door from someone who should maybe not have been trusted, to get their lines and tick them off right from the start?
It isn't a good start, trust me.
In the long run, it will be interesting to see what happens when the price of a puppy drops off or homes for puppies declines along with the current economy. It will be interesting to see who gets out of yorkies and finds something else with a hot market. ANd who hangs in there and is a true fancier of the breed.

Tami, you are so right. This is what is happening to me. I am having trouble getting a really nice show dog because people with the best lines are so distrusting. Can't say as I blame them tho for trying to protect all the years of hard work. At this point I am very discouraged in my short time showing. I will probably look overseas for a nice show quality male when I actually have money in hand to buy..

I started out with a show male on a co-ownership, took over a year to finish him but hung in there :) I even have my first homebred champion (just one). I then got a show female had a handler show her and finished her then I traveled with the handler for almost a full year to learn all I could, she showed maltese and showed my bitch in breed and I took her in the group (got great experience learning from a handler). Then I have my male now and finished him rather quickly and he's with a handler and it's not cheap especially with the failing economy and you know I still plan on hanging in the fancy because I love this breed so much and will always do right by the breed. I also have not one but "3" mentors and I listen to every word they tell me and if I have questions they are the first ones I seek for help and answers! I will always stand behind this breed and continue as long as I have good health and keep learning. When I stop learning then it's time to get out and find something else to do.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Or for those newcomers currently breeding, you could take a look at your own website and take a look at exactly what you are doing to try to figure out what exactly might be turning off the reputable breeder as in huge red flags.
Gee I wonder what that might be?

I recently owned 2 little girls from Europe .

Couldn't agree with you more! :)

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Here's my all-european, non-hungarian dog with poor front and topline, bad coat and colour etc etc :D I have finished him in three countries now... He has his faults, but I just love him and his attetude!

Jokes aside, I believe that bad frons are a big issue here... But as someone of you said - there are poor (and good) representatives of the breed everywhere in the world. Likewise I can't understand why it's "in" to show the dog by hanging it by the leach and almost twisting it's tail off..

I have wondered, though, how it can possibly be that so many dogs from top breeders in NA have ended up in east Europe, since I know that the best breeders in NA are very careful with their dogs...

At the start of it, the top breeders didn't know what was going to happen. After that, one look at the pedigree will always tell you where the betrayal of trust occured regardless of which side of the ocean you are talking about, ie trusted someone they should not have trusted.
I really do have to run as I am working today.

I believe a lot of the dogs have been sold with the understanding that nothing out of the dog is to be sold back to North America.. however in places where contracts are not enforcable...the agreement is only as good as the word of the person making it. Even if someone does stick to their word, once they breed the dog out, or sell offspring out of it to another show person in their own area, what binds that next person into honoring the agreement between the N/A breeder and the original buyer of the dog..? I have seen lots of very obvious lapses or complete lack of integrity. :( A persons word should be golden. Obviously this isn't happening. :( Obviously $$$$ is the motivator..and that's just sad. Now will this eventually stop N/A breeders from sending their dogs overseas? I don't know.. I guess that depends on how much the N/A breeder cares about their line, and where it ends up. If it does stop it.....it's very sad that a few have ruined tremendous opportunity for many to improve their dogs.

Ki Ki,
are you being sarcastic? Your dog is beautiful! I understand everyone trying to protect the lines but in order for the
Europeans to strengthen their gene pool, there needs to be an influx of new stock..otherwise the recessive genes for the undesirable traits (LP's, Liver Shunt) will start to emerge. I don't understand in line breeding but I did notice on my Gia's pedigree she has some cousins who mated. Didn't seem smart but maybe in dog breeding is ok. Obviously there are different types of dog breeders, those who are trying to achieve excellence and those who are trying to just make a yorkie looking dog to sell. When I wanted my pretty pet, I encountered alot of those yorkieish
dogs but was not inclined to shell out money for such.
The thing you have to take into consideraton is the cost of buying a European bred show quality dog is great and out of reach of many non serious, backyard breeders, so in that respect, the lines are protected from abuse. And so, the good gene pools are shared among professionals, as it should be., tor the advancement of the bred.

OK, I was just wondering.. Some NA-originated dogs have massive amounts of offspring in some countries... Sad, I think.

If this is directed at me, I would say the same thing Deanna said yesterday. newcomers make mistakes and try to rectify them. i currently have only one girl to breed and feel I have done my best to get decent lines and improve myself over the past year.

Might be that I was :rolleyes: :D He has his faults, I'd wish for even better front and darker blue on him. Anyways, I do love him dearly.

I understand if the breeders in NA are becoming more and more careful, if the dogs sold to foreign countries are being used not according to ther agreement. I was just wondering how and why the dogs have ended up there.

Dee,
I don't think she was singling anyone out in particular on this thread. But if you think about it some newbie websites that are out there would have reputable breeders running the opposite direction and that would be me included. Lots of red flags on many websites and I'm not including you Dee because actually I haven't been to your website so I can't say anything. I haven't been in the fancy long enough to even begin to sell a show dog without my mentors advice or comments or approval or even consider selling with breeding rights without what I just said.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I've only been showing for a bit over 2 years. I was blessed that a small breeder whose dogs had come from a good line was willing to take a chance on me. Connor isn't perfect but we have traveled the road together and learned alot. He has thrown some very nice pups that are doing well in the ring and is out with a handler presently. I got him into alot of bad habits so I had to call in the pros to reform him and finish him. I'm waitiing for my next show male which will be from a long time breeder with a great reputation. Each time I ask she says be patient. It's not easy to be patient but I show with her often enough that I know she won't give me crap to put in the ring. It will be worth the wait and she'll be picking out the pup (with over 35 years experience she'll do better than I could).
Hang in there Dee. Find a club and join. Get to know the exhibitors that are in your area. Go to handling classes, Specialties, and club sponsored matches. Try for a great male first and put your whole heart into showing him. Save up your money to put him with a handler if need be but be determined to finish him. Have a teachable spirit and a teacher will come along. You can do it, you just have to get on the patience wagon with me.

Tami it's all about patience :) Finding a good mentor and doing whatever necessary to help the breed and better it and keep learning! I joined my local yorkie club before I bought a show dog and bought from within my club and it just happened from there. I was serious about my showing and representing this breed to it's best and I've been lucky to get where I am today but it's because of my great mentors and determination and my GREAT love for this breed! I don't breed often and actually I don't care for the breeding aspect of this but sometimes it's a must but I'd rather be in the show ring with the most gorgeous yorkie that best represents this beautiful breed! With health being of the utmost importance :)

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

In a perfect world a breeding/show dog would be kept until 12 months and all health clearance would be done before being allowed to be shown/championed and bred.
I would like to see as much focus on health testing from all breeders from the top breeders and the the small breeders.
I have noticed in the most all of the contracts I have seen is that the key thing is they want the dog Championed before being bred, but they leave out the really important issues of all health testing/clearances done before being allowed to be shown/championed and bred. And some want you to run ads in the mags etc.
Why is that?
I think health testing should be one of the most important key to the contracts.
We are focusing much more on doing all the testing in our program right now. When we started no one did a lot of the health testing and still very few do, I hope more breeders will start doing more health testing. If you look on OFA the Yorkies there are not very many listed as compared to the number of Yorkies being bred. If you truly love the breed then health testing is something that has to be done.