Tina, please don't take this as being negative about your girl, because I don't mean it that way.. but I don't know how anyone can tell anything about the topline in the picture because of the way the dog is stacked... she's posting forward six inches, and is overangulated a good four in the back... If you'll notice in a lot of the pictures of hungarian puppies, they have the dogs so overangulated and their tails smooshed up so hard they have "U" shaped toplines.. I have no idea why they do this as the dog COULD look nice if it were stacked correctly. I will stand behind what I said before, I think a LOT of hungarian dogs have very very very steep shoulders, and otherwise extremely poor fronts, which among other things, makes for a very untractive topline.

Becki

I know my girls have great toplines since they are here with me at home and have grown up here. I see them move and they are great! If my one girl was bad representation, I know the owner of the stud I used would not have lt me breed to her male. She is picky too and very well respected.

Like I said before - you can have great and bad yorkies - no matter where you go in the world. Please do not classify all dogs bad in one country just because you Think so. Get your hands on some and see some more. And my other girl won over many other yorkies at a Speciality show (actually two Speciality shows). She showed well. Her color is unbelievable and so is her silky coat. But most of all I am very picky about structure. A good dog must have good bone structure - it is the foundation of the dog.

I have seen a lot of really bad representation of dogs here in America too, but you do not hear me say that many dogs here in America have bad toplines. It is because you will see bad and good toplines in all countries.

My last photo was just stacking a puppy and I know how she stacks with me. Nothing wrong. I was just sharing a photo of her when she was young and she does not look that bad.

Okay - you believe what you want and I know what I believe. We agree to disagree. I own both American and Hugarian Yorkies and I like them both. I feel them, see them move, and they live with me. If they had a bad topline - I would know about it and they do not.

Ditto :thumbup: I wish the European breeders would have more control with Limited registrations or you must show. I know when I got my last girl - she was very picky and I had to promise to show her and she had to make sure i was showing already or I could not get her. So some are trying.

Laurie,
I have always loved your dogs.
You have worked your tail off with your line and have done one heck of a job and it shows. I see many Yorkies I think is beautiful and of course when I look at the ped, I will see your lines behind it too. :)
Yours dogs are breathtaking but I am so sure you already know that :)

Tina, no need to get defensive.. I wasn't talking about your dogs in particular.. or ALL hungarian dogs, I said a LOT... and I'll agree with you a LOT of North American dogs have bad toplines as well...usually a different kind of bad, but bad none the less.. LOL.. again, didn't say ALL.. I'm not picking on you or your dogs.. promise! Nothing I've posted since the beginning of this thread had anything to do with you in any way form or fashion. :D

Becki

Thanks Becki! I just wanted to make sure you did not mean my dogs. I have put a lot of hard work in them, showing, training, researching, testing to make sure what I had was good. They also come from really good strong lines and I am also supporting those breeders in the back of my girls lines for all the hard work they have done too.

And Laurie - great to see you here And posting! You have some gorgeous dogs and have worked very hard. It shows!

It is all about learning and researching. And going back to the drawing board when what you thought would work did not and other times congratulating when it worked out so well. It is all about knowing the standard, lines and what is behind them, and do what is right to protect the breed. It is a lot of work, but ultimetly worth it. We owe it to our breed to be the best we can.

Becki is correct in that I have been to Europe and I have seen the dogs. I can tell you that under all that coat is nothing I would want, you need to have your hands on the dog and see it move to understand this. Why are the Europeans coming from there to the US and Canada to get dogs? They need to improve on structure, as I have always said you can put all the icing you want on the cake but if the cake is bad it does not matter how pretty it is, you cannot serve it.
I have been friends with Beate of Camparis for many years and I suppose if I wanted anything from Europe I could have gotten whatever I wanted, I never saw anything (other than our breedings at Camparis of course) that I had to have.
A while back i had one, I did not like anything that came out of that dog..YUCK. In poland the Govt encourages people to breed dogs for money, it is a business and only a business and a good way to make money in a poor country.
Hungarian dogs are improving of course, as they have been breeding with North American dogs and it has improved their lines.
And to those of you who complimented my dogs I thank you, it is all about trying to improve the breed and breeding just for ME LOL...

Laurie! You know I love your dogs! What can one say negative about NicNak dogs? Nothing that I can see :) I do love Aero lines also. I just love the Canadian lines myself. Great structure and movement in Aero and NicNak. I have to have a good structured healthy yorkie over anything else, the coat is just icing on the cake as you say :) Hope to see your beautiful dogs in NY :)

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

In the Dec 2007/Jan 2008 Issue of the YTM (red background w/ Scruffy's Playboy Image on the front) On page 52-58 there is an excellent article with illustrations written by the late, great Jay Ammon on Fronts. I reccomend everyone who is interested (and owns the magazine) read this article, then put your hands on your dogs and FEEL the bones...and compare to Jay's illustrations. You will learn so much by getting to tap into just this tiny fraction of the Knowledge Jay had, and putting your hands on your own dogs. The key is going into this excercise with an open mind.. kennel blindness is the sure defeat of any breeding program. Be honest with yourself on what you're feeling, and then if something needs correcting.. you'll know where to start. :)

Laurie is right, many breeders in Poland, Hungary etc love to get their hands on US and Canadian dogs. However, much to the extreme disappointment of breeders in N.America that did trust their dogs to Europe they have found that puppies from their lines end up being sold back to the Us and Canada at 10, 12 weeks, for show dogs to anyone that will pay them for them.
In some cases, they end up in the hands of people that do not want to show but breed breed breed and sell puppies saying they have such and such pup whose grandsire is so and so from over here, or goes back to that well known kennel in the US or Canada. In many cases the buyers buying from Europe were turned down by the breeder in US or Canada.
There is no point in trying to put contracts on a dog sold to Europe as contracts are not legal there and unenforceable.
I ran into someone in my area that bought Hungarian females for the point of breeding. I know exactly where they came from where they bought from. Why not buy local? Buyer didn't want contracts.
So for the most part, it leaves a real bad taste in my mouth when I run into people with dogs from Hungary Poland Russia, why not buy local or at least within Canada or the US? Never mind, I know the answer.
I have not had any trouble yet buying a Yorkie or getting a stud service from any well known breeder in Canada or the US. I think it is generally known I am not going to betray that trust with their lines anymore than i would put my own line in the wrong hands as I haven't done that in the 13 years or so that I have been in showing/breeding which means I am still a newcomer.

Yes, Lorraine this is so sad when this happens. Reason I do not sell any of my dogs with an open registry. All of mine are sold on Limited Registration and strict spay/neutered contract or sapeyed/neutered before they leave if older. I sold One dog with an open registry about 2 years ago and she had several show breeders recommendation through references I checked them out and all seem great. I did everything I was suppose to do. It is so sad that she is breeding this dog too many times to suit me and found out this is really a pet home. Unfortunetly she has several other well known lines from other show breeders. So I was not the only one doped. Lesson learned!! In the olden days we did not have to worry about this so much and usually did not happen. So just returning 3 years ago - I did not know enough then. I do Now!!!

Incidences such as the one that Tina described are what makes it so hard for someone to get started in showing. It is very difficult for a newcomer to get a good dog so they end up in the ring with a mediocre dog with no pedigree. It's easy to get discouraged when you are just learning the ropes and do not have a dog that has what it takes to win. Even if you're not interesting in breeding I can see where the European dogs would have appeal. I've been on both sides of this fence and feel the frustration of both the established show breeders and those of us that are new to the sport. If the newcomers all get frustrated and quit there will be no one to show dogs in 20 years or so.

I agree totally!!!!

There is no point in trying to put contracts on a dog sold to Europe as contracts are not legal there and unenforceable This is exactly the point I was trying to make as well!


I have not had any trouble yet buying a Yorkie or getting a stud service from any well known breeder in the US. I haven't had this problem either!

I see no reason to import when there are very nice dogs here and if you do right and show that you are doing right by the breed and do not misrepresent yourself then you shouldn't have a problem getting a good yorkie in North America. It may take time to gain the trust of a good breeder but it takes time, patience, and having that great mentor and it seems that with patience and the desire you will succeed if you know you are doing right by this fabulous breed!


Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

There are three big changes that have occured over the years that has had a large impact on breeders who have worked so hard on their lines and gotten them to the point they are - exquisite and the reason they have to be so careful.
1. Price of selling even a pet puppy has skyrocketed beyond reason. Plastic has made it possible to buy whatever may be the current whim for the purchaser. Many dog sellers which are what they are, are lining up to sell their wares hopefully with a champ grandsired or whatever nonsense they come up with including rare colours. biggest buck for the bang they can get is their main motive, not the breed.
2. It is so very seldom that anyone is willing to keep their word. At one time, a promise and a handshake would do it, not anymore. Even a written contract is no longer abided by with someone finding a loophole somewhere knowing full well what the intent of the person they bought from is.
3. Very seldom do you find a newcomer with the patience and understanding of what it will take to convince a reputable breeder you are indeed honourable and be willing to be mentored by the long time breeder or indeed listen to them and learn all the intricacies about the breed and the dog show world.
When i started out I went to dog shows for years, asked questions, etc show breeders remembered seeing me around before I even approached them for what I was looking for.
Suspicions are going to come up if you insist you want to start with a female to show and especially if you don't want to have a contract. Is your intent actually to breed? How many show breeders have fallen into that problem so often will, if you are lucky, offer a male on a coownership.
Many newcomers do not understand the term paying your dues. That means learning how to groom the show dog, handle as well as the professional handler or long time Breeder/owner/exhibitor. That means taking it on the chin if you lose with a nicer dog when a lesser dog has been put up because the judge is judging the wrong end of the lead. Or did you actually do a poor handling job and make your dog look not very good?
That means hanging in there when you realize you are not going to buy a group winning dog just like that instead you have to have the patience to put in a lot of years and breed your own.
The newcomer has no idea that long time breeder paid the same dues over the years to great expense and big disappointments.
So, in spite of all the obstacles, how much of a fancier of the breed are you really? Are you willing to do the best you can with what you have, pay your dues and hang in there until you have the years and experience behind you?
In my humble opinion, there are far too many newcomers that think they can buy fame and alcolades and avoid the years of experience and disappointments the long time seasoned well known show breeder has gone through. Are you willing to wait and deal directly with that breeder or go through the back door from someone who should maybe not have been trusted, to get their lines and tick them off right from the start?
It isn't a good start, trust me.
In the long run, it will be interesting to see what happens when the price of a puppy drops off or homes for puppies declines along with the current economy. It will be interesting to see who gets out of yorkies and finds something else with a hot market. ANd who hangs in there and is a true fancier of the breed.

Tami, you are so right. This is what is happening to me. I am having trouble getting a really nice show dog because people with the best lines are so distrusting. Can't say as I blame them tho for trying to protect all the years of hard work. At this point I am very discouraged in my short time showing. I will probably look overseas for a nice show quality male when I actually have money in hand to buy..