question about showing and show quality
 

After reading another post about pedigrees and champions in their background, I have a theoretical question.

Say you have a dog that has champions in it's 4th and/or 5th generation...... Is it possible for a dog that hasn't had recent champions to still be of quality to show? I guess I am thinking that IF the dogs that were born to a champion pair were sold and not ever shown, they still could produce show quality dogs?

When you go into the show ring with a dog that was NOT born to a champion, how does that affect the dog being judged? Can a dog stand on it's own without being champion sired?

I mean I have seen some beautiful dogs that are not champions... if they were to be shown to try to obtain a championship is the fact that they are not champion sired going to adversely hurt them?

I know to most people a dog may "look" good and that doesn't neccesarilly mean they are good. I know that topline, structure, coat quality, the way the dog carries itself, etc all are factors, but does lack of championships in the 2 or 3rd generation eliminate that dog altogether?

The reason I am asking is because it occured to me that most people who show thier dogs do not sell a dog that is show quality or they would show it themselves (I think). So if someone wanted to try showing how would they obtain a show hopeful?

Great question! I would have to say a show dog doesn't have to be championed sired to become a champion but it's desired. If a dog has more than 3 faults I wouldn't put them in the ring but it may not hurt to use as a stud or bitch if the dog or bitch had no health issues but had great structure and movement and put together. Just because a dog has a bad bite that can be bred out and then you bring back in a dog with a good bite (using this as an example)
If you want to show I would attend shows, watch the yorkies and find the type you like, study pedigrees, find a mentor, join a yorkie club in your area.
Most show breeders breed for themselves and yes they will place a dog into a show home but they have to know you and know your intentions. Say they have a nice male and that show breeder doesn't need a male and they have a suitable show home then they will place him in a show home with strict contracts. I personally don't sell show dogs because I haven't been showing but about 4 1/2 years and I'm still not confident in placing a show dog. I also do not have that many show dogs and when I do breed I want my next one for the ring and you won't have every pup in that particular litter be show quality. But again, go to shows get acquainted with yorkie show breeders.
I know I didn't answer all the questions my brain is fried tonight LOL...but at least I hope I helped some.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

pedigree
 

My first champion was from one of my non-champion studs. The judge had no clue what the pedigree looks like..it is the dog who must be superior and most of the time it takes a close champion line...no champions until the 4th or 5th gen makes it extremely difficult and rare. I have not seen it..but then again, I do not know each and every champion who has lived and died.

I have heard it said...if you have enough money and time a good handler can finish anything, but why pour money into a dog you would not want to breed? When I first started, I had a male who was pet quality...a handler put points on him..then I took off my "blinders" and had a really good look at him and asked a few others...I took him out of the ring. I recognized in my eagerness to compete and get established, I was short changing myself...and doing the breed no favors.

At dog shows the judge is judging the dog and not the dog's pedigree so it would not matter if your dog is champion sired or not. A dog can have no champions in their background and still be shown and could still win if they were a good representive of the breed. A lady I know that shows Bulldogs said she knew of a Bulldog once that had no champions in his pedigree and he became a champion but none of his offspring were ever show quality.
Yorkies are one of the most difficult breeds to show. It takes lots of hard work and patience to grow a show coat. You have to start with dog that has a true silky coat, proper conformation and movement. Reputable show breeders sell their show quality dogs under a very strict contract where the breeders stay on as co-owners until the dog becomes a champion. You also have to agree that if you are unable to finish the dog after a certain amount of time then you have to agree to put the dog with a professional handler.

Finding a breeder to sell you a show quality dog might take a little time but it can be done. Most show breeders do not want to sell to a person that already has a house full of pet quality Yorkies...that is a red flag for them. If a person is truly interested in showing you would need to spay and neuter your pets and try to start by getting a male Yorkie to show. A good show quality Yorkie should be at least 6 months old and would cost at least $2500. Some of your smaller show breeders that are not as reputable might sell you a 12 week old show prospect male for $1500 to $2000 without a show contract but they would not guarantee them to turn out showable and that would be a risky deal. You just need to do your homework and go to some shows to see if that is what you really want to do. Actually if you have enough money you don't have to show the dog yourself. Many folks just buy expensive dogs and hire a handler to finish the dog for them.

GREAT ANSWERS everyone! I do have another question regarding the statement in red above. I understand why you would want any pet quality yorkies to be spayed or nuetered. No one would want to entrust a show quality yorkie to someone that could possibly use it to breed to a pet quality yorkie. The question I have is why a MALE? Is there a reason why you would want to start showing with a male yorkie rather than a female?

Thanks again you guys for some great answers.

Males are generally easier to grow coat on and they hold their color better. In general, unless you have an exceptional Yorkie, it takes up to two years or longer to grow a good show coat. Most show males are 18 months to 2 1/2 years old before they are in good enough coat to win their majors. You need two major wins to become a champion. Females usually come in heat around 10 months and often females get lighter in color after each heat cycle so you might get a female with nice steel blue at 1 year of age but by the time she is in full coat and ready to compete she might be too light. But probably the main reason for starting with a male is that most show breeders would not ever sell a quality bitch to someone they do not know and trust.

I am sensing that you want to know if you someone can buy a pet quality and that dog end up being show quality. Yes, it can happen. It's rare but it can happen.

There was a German Shepard Dog in the Group at Westminster that was sold as a pet. The dog was found living his life chained to a tree and was rescued. There was also a pet Suluki that had a great career.

Or you purchase what a breeder claimed to be show quality that turns out to be a pet quality at best. You trust a person and feeling less experienced you fall. Never buy an "outside of your own" for your program before 6 months of age. I learned this the hard way.

I remember the german shepard dog you are speaking of.

No it's not really any of those reasons. I already have 6 dogs (5 yorkies and a poodle mix) All are spayed or nuetered except one of my girls who I think is a great representation of the breed, She does have champion lines but they are 4th generation. Actually her grandfather I think just got his championship recently as well. I don't think I could show her because I don't live in an area where they have a yorkie club. They do have a small dog fancier's club here that used to sponser dog shows here at least once a year, but they cancelled this year and they seem to be gravitating more towards herding dogs. I am basically looking down the road a ways because I really would love to show at some time. I love this breed and would love to experience showing with the best possible representation. I own both the mom and dad to the one I am speaking of. Neither were sold as "show quality" but both have champion lines. When we bought the mom, the breeder told me she was planning to keep her back to possibly show her, but they were getting ready to move into a new home and she didn't have the time right then. That is why she sold her. The parents to the mom were both well on thier way to thier championships. I don't know that they have gotten them yet. Both of mine are now fixed after the mom had a c-section with this litter. but that being said, the little girl who is now 10 months old is gorgeous. I don't know if she is close enough to the standard to show, but I am thinking of getting her evaluated. My vet who used to raise yorkies keeps telling me that she is nice enough to show. So basically it is just a theoretical question at this time.

We would love to see pictures of your girl. I also meant to add last night that if you start with a show quality male and prove yourself in the ring then the breeder of your male would most likely be willing to sell you a suitable female to breed with your male if you were interesting in establishing your own show line, or they would recommend you to some other reputable breeder. Iwolfe is correct in saying if you are looking for a real show quality dog, he needs to be at least 6 months old. There are many, many so called show breeders that advertise show quality puppies but they are selling them at 12 weeks and there is no way of knowing at that age how the puppy will turn out. You need to buy from a show breeder that is currently active in the show ring and has champion dogs that they have actually produced themselves. I hope that one day you are able to get your dream dog. You are doing the right thing by asking questions now and leaning all that you can.

CD Higgins
 

Do you know the only Yorkie to win Westminster, C.D. Higgins was sold by the breeder as a pet, then his new owner decided to show him...of course, he was not from a pet pedigree?

I just took some picture of my girl. This is Tiny Rainbow Treasure and she is MY treasure even if she isn't to someone else. lol
These were all taken today. She wasn't wanting to cooperate in stacking today

Your little girl is beautiful. Is she just 10 months old? She sure has a lot of coat. You might consider having her evaluated by some show breeders in your area. If she has sound movement and nice conformation she might do well in the show ring.

Thank you.. she is about 10 1/2 months old (born April 9, 2007) She does have a LOT of coat and it is so silky.. Her color hasn't broke as much as I would have liked yet, but hopefully it will. Her mom is a darkie and finally at 3 1/2 she is breaking into a beautiful steel blue. When I look at Rainbow's part along her back her skin is blue, so I think that is a good sign. I am going to the show in Bakersfield in March and hopefully can have her evaluated there.

Pat, Where did you learn that he was sold as a pet. I know that mrs. Clark carefully inbred to create him, breeding Toy Clown (out of Wildweir's Pomp 'N' Circumstance) to Miss Debutante and than to their daughter, granddaughter and great granddaughter, gradually building a prepotency of Toy Clown's genes in both the sire and dam of Higgens. It's incredible that he could have almost missed the ring after all those years of work! In his 5 generation pedigree he had 14 champions on his sire's side alone. Of course most of them were the same dogs. There were 16 champions on his dam's side in his 5 generation pedigree.

Higgins
 

I am not too proud to admit my age...so I am old enough to have been there to see many of these past champions in the ring and talk to the owners and breeders at one time or the other.

Higgins was sold to Bill Switzer as pet for his wife...his breeder, C. D.Lawrence did not think Higgins would be a good ring dog, size factor...the Switzers daughter, Marlene showed him...and he was a super showoff...he could almost talk...very animated.

Anne Rodgers Clark was the judge at the Garden who gave him the win...

PS...on another forum whenever I post something one member disagrees with, she always says...."things are different now, you are from the olden days...LOL

I'm glad there are some people around that were around than. There are somethings that can't be learned from books and it's so nice to have folks that were there to fill in the blanks. I have a pic of Marlene showing him (that dog had enough hair on his head!) but it must have been incredible to have been there. Thanks for sharing.

I just read about him in the book The Dog Show 125 Years of Westminster. Annie said that he was the best Yorkshire Terrier she had ever had her hands on.

I was showing in 1978 but I didn't pay much attention to Yorkies.

on another forum whenever I post something one member disagrees with, she always says...."things are different now, you are from the olden days...LOL

Pat - she is probably right, that you do things like we did in the old days. Back in the "olden days" we remembered that this was the sport of Queen Victoria. It was done with grace, style and good sportsmanship. Next time she accuses you of being from the olden days - say Thank You!

I on the other hand placed a puppy with someone I thought I could trust.. The verbal agreement was if the puppy did not turn out I would replace him or purchase him back.. After I received a call from the new owner stating his bite had went off I told her I could no longer replace him, as I did not feel comfortable about placing another dog with her because of certain things being brought to light.. But I did offer to purchase him back for the pet price she paid for him.. Last she stated he was going to be neutered and kept for a pet, but I have still not received conformation of him ever being altered.. Infact this boy was never placed as show quality, but a young prospect.. So it goes both ways and I will say I certainly learned the hard way at the expense of my puppy!~

I will make one public statement regarding this, and any future communication concerning it will be done privately on my part.

Melanie Hamilton sent me an email stating she had a puppy that she thought might be perfect for me and my daughter because she KNEW I was looking for a new male to show at that time. Ms. Hamilton knew I was not in the market for a "pet". She told me to think about it and offered him to me for 1000 dollars. I have record of this and her statements. I felt very fortunate at first and agreed to purchase him for my daughter to show in juniors. Before his shipment I asked her on two occassions if she planned to place him with me on a co-owner agreement, which she declined. Ms. Hamilton transferred the puppy into my name a few weeks before he was shipped to me. She placed him with me on full registration, in my name only. I do not believe that is what people do when placing pets.

We entered him in four akc shows in Hampton, Va. It is then that I had him evaluated by other long time exhibitors and a judge. I phoned Ms. Hamilton from my hotel and informed her of my findings regarding his bite. She told me very bluntly during our conversation that she did not plan to refund or replace my puppy, that in light of the disagreements we were having that she felt it best that I find a pet home for him myself, but to make sure I let her know where he went. He is with me to this day.
Yes, that was the verbal agreement that Ms Hamilton stated in her post. Ms. Hamilton did not fulfull any part of it. She did not offer to buy the puppy back. She washed her hands of it as soon as I informed her. I did not want a replacement pup from her.

I have made it a point to not bring up Ms. Hamilton's name, or my experience with her publicly and never would have until now. For the record I was not referring to Ms. Hamilton in my post above. Since she decided to wash her hands of me she has no idea what has happened in my life since my experience with her.
Ms. Hamilton,
I will be happy to give you the address of a mediator for you to send money ASAP. I will then ship you the dog and after you receive the dog, the mediator will release funds to me.

I will state the truth and anyone who would like to view the emails please feel free to PM me..

Truly thought I was helping a "friend", but I have learned there are people who will pretend to be your friend.. When the boy mentioned left my home he was a nice boy, but he was still a puppy! As we all know puppies can fall apart.. I truly thought I was helping Robbie Spaugh and her daughter, but after the fact I was alerted to certain issues which concerned me.. Robbie was told at a show his bite was off, she called me with the concern.. I told her I have had one puppy that their bite went off, but it did correct itself.. So she decided to wait it out.. I told her at the time I would not replace him because of the issues which were brought to my attention after the placement of the boy with Robbie.. I did at the time offer to bring him back to my home and she wanted to wait it out.. She also through this time on one occassion ask me who I may be placing as she might be interested in them! I have on more then one occasssion after the bite issue ask for pictures and updates on him to never receive a one! She had also stated during one conversation he was going in to be altered and I have never received confirmation concerning that issue either at this time.. I will not play this game with you Robbie.. You stated you would keep him in your home and always love him.. This is the last I will speak of it.. Just because someone places a post on a thread on a talk forum does NOT make it a fact and there are two sides to every story.. I will also state I was in NO hurry to place this boy, but did offer him to Robbie and her daughter for Junior Handling also.. This was the first breeding between the parents, which I did alert Robbie to and I did not know what the total outcome would be.. I have never made a profit from my dogs and I never will.. I do it for the love of the breed.. I can also state I had alot more invested in the litter of one puppy then what was paid for him.. I never placed him as a 'Show Quality Yorkie"! Robbie and her friend CJ wanted me to quit worrying about his maturing out and let Robbie have him, which was one of the biggest mistakes of my life.. Live and learn, it will never happen again.. I will also state when Robbie called me from her hotel room we spoke for at least 1-1 1/2 hours, so I did NOT tell her anything of the sort and she knows it! Like I mentioned if anyone would like to see the emails which state the truth please feel free to PM me..

I am truly sorry you two ladies are having to air your differences on a public forum. Let this be a lesson to anyone buying a Yorkie, whether from friend or stranger, also get a sales contract and make sure the contract is something you can live with and abide to. Sometimes when dealing with 'friends' one may assume to much and it can come back to haunt you.

You are exactly right! I believe it is just better for all concerned to alter and place the puppies into a pet home which you decide to not keep back..

Sunnie.. Your girl is beautiful!

Thank you so much. I feel so bad because I wasn't trying to stir up a can of worms. I was just asking a question because I am considering showing Rainbow. I just wondered if she had any kind of chance. Neither her mom or dad were sold to me as a "show prospect" although they do have some champions in thier lines, especially the mom (Sunshine). The breeder was considering showing her (Rainbow's Mom, Sunshine) but because of thier immenent move she decided to sell her (but not as a show prospect.) She did give me full registration on her because she is a beautiful little girl and comes from a line of free whelpers. But since she delivered Beamer and Rainbow thru a c-section I felt it best to spay her and Sunnie too. Beamer is a doll but I don't consider him to be show quality so he has been nuetered. Rainbow is gorgeous in my opinion and I just wondered if it would be possible to show her with any success since she isn't champion sired. I would hate to try to show her and feel foolish if she didn't have a chance in the world.

Sunni I wanted to apologize for hijacking your thread, I let my emotions get the best of..

I think Rainbow is a beautiful girl and I wish you best of luck in whatever you may decide to do!~

Sorry, but I also wanted to mention just because your girl is not championed sired does not mean she herself could not be a champion! There are some absolutely beautiful sires who are not champions, but come from excellent lines and do throw beautiful show potential puppies.. When a judge is going over your dog in the ring he does not know if he/she is champion sired, so if you have a beautiful example of the breed you have just as much chance winning your class as a champion sired yorkie.. I wish you the best of luck~

Sunnie, I think your girl looks good in the picture. It is hard to judge coat texture and structure from a picture. It might be worth while getting her evaluated by a show person. It is a lot of fun starting with a puppy, even if they aren't perfect. The first Yorkie I took in the ring was a dark soft coated bitch and I learned really fast that her coat was not proper but we had a good time.

Barbra,
Didn't you get yogi your show prospect at 10 wks?
Just wondering?