Fromm, primal freeze dried...which food does your baby do well on?
 

Hi all, i've had my baby on taste of the wild puppy formula for a while now and I use primal duck freeze-dried raw as a topper but I'm going to switch because her one year birthday will be next month. At first I debated switching to just primal raw but I have concerns about that like would she be getting all of her nutrition from 2 nuggets a day and also i've read some dogs just don't do well on raw. I've done a lot of research and I'm leaning on switching her to one of the Fromm formulas but having a hard time deciding which one. I was leaning on a grain free, surf and turf or maybe the beef frittata. But I've read that some people have had issues with gas and I buggers with the surf and turf. Please let me know what your experiences have been with either or both. Thanks!

I can't remember which ones I tried I think it had beef in it but it made my older girl break out and I heard that from someone else too but that doesn't mean its will happen to yours. I personally am not a fan of raw I have learned about it from the vet side. The three things I look for when I am picking a food is if they have vet nutritionists on staff, good quality control and if they do feeding trials, those three things are even more important then the ingredients of the food.

I fed my yorkie Fromms Whitefish and Potato for many years and had no problem. Also sign up for their e-mail they send coupons every so often. I also gave her the cranberry treats. You can call them directly to get a coupon to try their food. I think it is a good food and they had I think one recall. Susan

I like Primal premade raw. I like the company. It's all about what you are comfortable with and what you feel your dog does best on. My vet approves of Stella & Chewy's and Primal as well but some vets do not like raw. There's definite pros and cons. You could always keep feeding some of the freeze dried stuff as toppers.

Kibbles I like after years of experimenting lol: Acana or Orijen, Farmina, Annamaet, Wellness, Fromm (although I do the company, I have heard complaints of big poops and itchiness yada yada from them). Also, Royal Canin has some formulas that IMO are just "meh" but they put a ton of research into their foods and there are a few formulas that I know dogs do super well on. And honestly, Purina Pro Plan and Beyond have produced some good results from reviews I've heard and experienced.

It's basically going to be what you are looking for, what you feel comfortable with and most importantly: listen to your dog and feed what THEY do best on. Don't get hung up on ingredients if your dog has horrible poop, or vomiting or stomach issues. Feed what works for your dog.

Thank you for all the responses! It really does feel like such a crapshoot, raw vs not raw kibble versus no kibble and then of course the various varieties within kibble. Such trial and error!!

You can also look into Home cooking which is the best way to feed in my opinion. You have to use a recipe from a vet nutritionist and supplement but you can find those at balanceit.com. You might want to check into it.

The best thing to do is to feed a nutritionally balanced food that your dog likes and does well on. According to their website, Fromm foods are designed to meet AAFCO guidelines, which means they meet the minimum requirements for nutritionally balanced foods for healthy dogs. I think that some of their recipes are given names that are meant to be appealing to the appetites of the dog's human owners, which is not a relevant consideration at all (and personally turns me off), so I would ignore that and try to keep it simple. Fromm seems to have a huge diversity of food, so there's a lot to choose from, but I'd stick to simple, traditional ingredients (protein and carbohydrate sources) that other dogs have done well on in the past.

A couple of things that make me a little uneasy about Fromm is that the ingredients for their dog foods listed on their website (www.frommfamily.com) are incomplete. They list "vitamins and minerals," but don't state specifically which ones they add to their food, and a lot is left off when you click on their "typical analysis" link. (See https://frommfamily.com/products/dog...eed-adult-gold for an example.) If you check the ingredient lists on many other brands of dog foods, they list each and every vitamin and mineral that is added. I trust Fromm to follow AAFCO guidelines because they state that they do on their website, but when you look at the fine print, it becomes a matter of faith.

The second thing that makes me uneasy is what they write on their FAQ page in response to the question: "I heard Fromm is good for pets with allergies– why?" Their answer is basically that their foods are made from so many different ingredients that if your dog is actually allergic to a specific ingredient and their dog food contains that ingredient, it is diluted out by the other ingredients and doesn't matter. Here's the quote (from the web page https://frommfamily.com/about/questi...for-allergies/ ):

So it's a kind of bait and switch. The question is about food allergies, but their reply is about dietary intolerance, and they say it doesn't matter. I'm not an expert in food allergies vs. dietary intolerances, but that answer makes me uneasy.

But if you have a healthy dog with no food allergies or intolerances, it's probably a good food :D.

Wow, yeah, don't like that answer, lol. Fromm is NOT a food I'd feed to an allergy prone or sensitive dog. Soooo many ingredients.

Follow-up on food allergy vs. intolerance.
 

Okay, I just looked up food allergy vs. food intolerance (in humans) and found the following article from the Mayo clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...y/faq-20058538

So a food allergy is an extreme reaction that can result in anaphylactic shock. A food intolerance is much milder (examples include lactose intolerance and celiac disease) and results in milder responses, such as diarrhea, irritable bowel syndrome, etc (which are still bad, in my opinion). Mayo clinic states that if you have a food intolerance, you *may* be able to eat small amounts of the offending food without trouble.

Still, it's a little dodgy for Fromm to answer a question about food allergy with a response about food intolerance. Their response to the question does hedge a little bit when they say "We have many customers who believe that their pet has an allergy to a certain ingredient, but they are surprised to find that their pet does quite well after switching to Fromm, even if the recipe they feed their pet contains the suspected allergen."

So Fromm's response is that basically some people think their dogs are allergic to a specific ingredient, but they don't know what they're talking about--it's most likely a food intolerance. That may be true, but if a vet tells me that my dog has a food allergy, and it really is a food allergy, then Fromm's response is dangerous. They need to rework that web page, because it's bad advice. Also, Fromm's reply to that question is that even if your dog has a food intolerance and not a true food allergy, try our food anyway because it probably doesn't have enough of the offending ingredient to make your dog sick. Sorry, I'm not buying it. If my dog has food intolerance to chicken, and the food contains chicken, even if it's further down on the list of ingredients, I'm not going to get that food. There are plenty of other dog food brands out there that don't contain chicken.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Yup, that's what I'm trying to say.

Primal is one of my absolute faves, paws down! Fed it for years and years. And still would...bc I'm still feeding raw now. I just happened to discover SoJos, so now I'm just adding my own meat, and doing it that way for now.

Were you using one of the Primal freeze dried products? I checked out their website (ingredients, nutrient profiles, calcium/phosphorus ratio, etc.) and was pleasantly surprised. It's pricey, but I think they put out a good product. I'm not a fan of raw food at all, but Primal does a good job of providing a reasonably balanced food using natural ingredients.

I've been feeding Primal (freeze dried and raw) for a year now. I've tried other raw brands but mine love Primal the most.

Yes - freeze dried was actually how the nutritionist had us first start out on "raw" - we just crumbled it up dry at first. And the freeze dried is also awesome for travel! Very responsive company to questions too, which I like :).

Okay. Their freeze dried formulas, their raw frozen formulas, and their raw pronto formulas are designed to provide complete nutrition according to AAFCO guidelines: https://primalpetfoods.com/pages/can...se-your-primal

I'm still trying to figure out how they expect people to know how to balance their other products like raw frozen mixes and raw frozen grinds to provide complete nutrition. Maybe I will send them an email to ask them, because it's not clear from their website.

Kudos to Primal for testing their raw foods for bacterial content and providing food that is safe from a bacterial standpoint.

Maybe even ask them if their nutritionist will email you directly - or maybe they will anyway. I used to have their name - but who knows if still the same person...? I'll see if I still have any info...:)

Good to read your pups are raw fed. Raw is the best!! :)

I sent them a message. I'll let you know what they say. In the meantime, if you have any info, let me know!

I heard back from Primal about their mixes and grinds:

I'm satisfied with the speed and honesty with which they replied. I can only recommend their complete nutritionally balanced foods. It's very dicey to suggest that there are "many recipes on the internet" that can help me customize their non-balanced mixes and grinds. They might want to rethink that advice. At least all of their foods are tested safe for dangerous bacteria and microorganisms. It would be nice if they could coordinate the proper nutritional balancing of their mixes and grinds with professional nutritionists.

I'm attaching a copy of the Recommendations for Selecting a Commercially Available Pet Food from the American Animal Hospital Association and the World Small Animal Veterinary Association. I'll also quote these recommendations below:

These recommendations are from an excellent article titled "Current knowledge about the risks and benefits of raw meat–based diets for dogs and cats" that's probably behind a paywall at the following link: https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/ab...ma.243.11.1549

I'll probably review this article and other recent articles on the same topic at a later time.

I'm going to do my due diligence and ask Primal (and Wellness, the manufacturer of Bella's dog food) additional questions addressing these points. I'll let you know what I find out.

Some of my research has already been done for me by others. Most of the questions in the AAHA commercial dog food selection guidelines have already been submitted to various dog food companies, and the answers to these questions collected in one place: Pet Food Company Survey

The companies surveyed include: Blue Buffalo, Canidae, Acana/Orijen, Eukanuba, Fromm, Nature's Variety, Innova/EVO, Wellness, and Royal Canin. Of these, Royal Canin stood head and shoulders above all the rest, but many of the others gave good responses as well. For a raw food company, I was impressed that Nature's Variety has gone through the AAFCO feeding trials for their raw foods. Kudos to Nature's Variety. Fromm gave a dodgy response, and Primal wasn't asked. I'll let you know what I hear back from Primal...

I found that very interesting.

Primal replied to my questions...
 

I received the following in response to my questions from Primal Pet Foods:


I'm not sure what a holistic veterinarian nutritionist is, but I'm satisfied with their answers about meeting AAFCO standards for nutrition, as well has having some of their recipes put through AAFCO feeding trials. Their foods are manufactured in the US in their own facilities, which is also a plus. If I were feeding Primal to Bella, I'd probably follow up with two more questions: (1) What is a holistic veterinarian nutritionist? and (2) Which recipes were tested using AAFCO feeding trials? but I'll leave that as an exercise to the people who feed Primal or who are considering feeding Primal. Considering that Primal is a smaller, specialized company, none of these answers are deal-breakers for me.

Fabian's been on Fromm Adult Gold since we brought him home from the breeder at 13 weeks. He's really thrived on it. I drizzle a little olive oil on his breakfast kibble to keep his coat shiny in winter.

Thanks for all your research, Phil! Glad my thoughts regarding Primal were seemingly correct. I recall liking their responses and research in the past but it had been a while since I looked into raw. I just know they're one of the companies as far as feeding raw goes that I quite like and would consider feeding.

The thing that confuses me about Primal, is my understanding is that a 4.5-5.5 lb yorkie should consume about 200-250 calories per day. Primal says that if your dog is about 5-5.5 lbs then they only need 90 calories per day or 2 freeze dried nuggets per day. So perhaps Wylie’s mom can answe this for me since she feeds that, but that seems like it’s not enough?

I agree with you. It doesn't make any sense at all, unless Primal's calculations of the calories in their food are wrong. I'm attaching a couple of images to this post. The first one is the energy and food requirement for a 5 lb dog created using Primal Pet Food's feeding calculator. According to Primal, the dog needs 100 calories per day, or 2 freeze dried nuggets.

However, I checked the tables in the textbook Applied Veterinary Clinical Nutrition (Fascetti and Delaney, editors. 2012.), and the energy requirement for a 4.4 pound active dog is 219 calories (235 calories for a young dog, 160 calories for an inactive dog, and 177 calories for an active old dog). That averages around 200 calories for the average dog. The second attachment is the table from the textbook I got those numbers from.

As far as I know, there's nothing wrong with the nutritional content of Primal's food, but I'm wondering where they get their feeding recommendations from, and whether they are accurate.

For what it's worth, I also checked out Stella and Chewy's website for their feeding recommendations for a 5 pound dog. For Chewy's Chicken Freeze Dried Dinner Patties, they recommend 2.5 patties per day, which at 60 calories per patty comes out to 150 calories per day. They also state that individual requirements might vary by +/- 50%. That gives a range of 75 to 225 calories per day. The top part of this range seems more reasonable for an active dog. By comparison, Wellness Core Grain Free Small Breed recommends 200 calories per day for a 5 pound dog, which is in keeping what I read in the Applied Veterinary Clinical Nutrition textbook.

Any thoughts from users of Primal or Stella and Chewy's whether they feed the recommended amount or a bit more?

Gosh Phil - just seeing your calcs on calories now - forgive me - I'm behind lately on a lot of stuff bc of family things happening. But yes, that seems bizarre! I've been feeding Sojo's for the past 1.5yrs (where you add your own raw meet to the pre-mix) - but before that I fed Primal nuggets or Nature Variety. I always seemed to feed a bit above the average recommended and I do that too w/ Sojos. It seems impossible for Primal to be recommending 90cals - are they off their rockers :eek: :p...?

This is my experience with raw:

I gave Paris who is 8.5 pounds (great weight for her size but she is kinda on the thin side) Stella and Chewy's on average daily 4 dinner patties since she is too picky in eating and I'm not used to a pet not going right to their food and eating it. She started vomiting like in total 3-4 times after eating Stella and Chewy's a couple of days after. The doctor did X-rays and a Parvovirus exam and everything was fine and told me to just feed her a bland diet and change the raw dinner patties I was giving her since it was not agreeing with her. They gave Paris a shot and a pill and they told me if she vomits again then to contact them immediately. She has not vomited since then, her stool became normal again. I don't know if the patties had any cause or is it because I changed her diet from Blue Buffalo to Stella and Chewy too soon??? But I stopped feeding her raw after that since I'm scared she starts feeling bad again. I also feel like there is too much protein and fat in the raw patties of Stella and Chewy's compared to a typical recommended protein and fat diet for a dog. I put her back to Blue Buffalo since I'm comfortable with the ingredients they have more so than most dry foods and so far she eats when she is only hungry and she is back to normal. Again, this is my experience with raw food and I'm not an expert in raw and general food diet for dogs. Just putting out my experience here.