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-   -   Raw Diet for Yorkies? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yorkie-health-diet/291255-raw-diet-yorkies.html)

Wylie's Mom 06-28-2017 02:58 AM
I honestly do think, with all due respect to EVERYone, that people really get excessively overwrought about "germs, germs, omg, GERMS!".

12,410 = the number of raw meals I've fed over the last 8 years.

0 = the number of issues I've had with these "rampant and dangerous germs" from raw food

Just sayin'. :rolleyes:

The fear surrounding raw food does not correlate to the REALITY of actually feeding it.

I don't know a single, solitary other raw feeder who has had problems with germs either. Sometimes what one learns in classes or online is not actually what one experiences in reality. I learned that firsthand after getting my bachelors degree in nursing too, btw. The texts and classes say one thing, reality is another.
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pstinard 06-28-2017 03:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 4732433)
I honestly do think, with all due respect to EVERYone, that people really get excessively overwrought about "germs, germs, omg, GERMS!".

12,410 = the number of raw meals I've fed over the last 8 years.

0 = the number of issues I've had with these "rampant and dangerous germs" from raw food

Just sayin'. :rolleyes:

The fear surrounding raw food does not correlate to the REALITY of actually feeding it.

I don't know a single, solitary other raw feeder who has had problems with germs either. Sometimes what one learns in classes or online is not actually what one experiences in reality. I learned that firsthand after getting my bachelors degree in nursing too, btw. The texts and classes say one thing, reality is another.
Save
Save
I'm not saying that it can't be done, especially if you're very careful about choosing quality products and making sure the meals are nutritionally balanced. The germ issue isn't necessarily an issue for the dog--dogs can handle a lot more bacteria than humans can. The reason they discourage therapy dogs from being raw fed is for the humans, especially those with compromised immune systems.

My biggest pet peeve is with people who promote misinformation. (I'm not talking about you, Ann.) It makes me a little leery about whether they can handle the added responsibilities of raw feeding. But if someone has done their due diligence and is not endangering anyone else, it can work.

Wylie's Mom 06-28-2017 03:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4732439)
I'm not saying that it can't be done, especially if you're very careful about choosing quality products and making sure the meals are nutritionally balanced. The germ issue isn't necessarily an issue for the dog--dogs can handle a lot more bacteria than humans can. The reason they discourage therapy dogs from being raw fed is for the humans, especially those with compromised immune systems.

My biggest pet peeve is with people who promote misinformation. (I'm not talking about you, Ann.) It makes me a little leery about whether they can handle the added responsibilities of raw feeding. But if someone has done their due diligence and is not endangering anyone else, it can work.
:thumbup: :) Agree.

I don't want to imply there *can't* be an issue...I'm sure a possibility / potential is there. But I haven't experienced any issues at all with germs, and I'm not especially careful of them at all.

Yup - misinformation is often an uphill battle!

Lovetodream88 06-28-2017 07:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 4732433)
I honestly do think, with all due respect to EVERYone, that people really get excessively overwrought about "germs, germs, omg, GERMS!".

12,410 = the number of raw meals I've fed over the last 8 years.

0 = the number of issues I've had with these "rampant and dangerous germs" from raw food

Just sayin'. :rolleyes:

The fear surrounding raw food does not correlate to the REALITY of actually feeding it.

I don't know a single, solitary other raw feeder who has had problems with germs either. Sometimes what one learns in classes or online is not actually what one experiences in reality. I learned that firsthand after getting my bachelors degree in nursing too, btw. The texts and classes say one thing, reality is another.
Save
Save
I think sometimes two and two might not be put together. Like you have someone with a low immune system in your home you might think they are getting sick from other things or say Grandma came for a visit and after a few days back home she was sick. We might not always see the connection. Another huge issue is making sure it's balanced. A lot of people think you can just throw a raw chicken to the dog and that's it but not balancing it is a huge problem. You also have people who say well raw fixes anything so my dogs allergies will just go away and never get and medicine to help. I stand firmly by what I learned. I have heard and seen some very rough stories of it going bad and it just seems very risky to me. It also puts a bad taste in my mouth that A LOT of people I have heard and seen feed raw thing vets are unnecessary and don't go to them and bash the crap out of them and that just bothers the heck out of me.

Lovetodream88 06-28-2017 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4732439)
I'm not saying that it can't be done, especially if you're very careful about choosing quality products and making sure the meals are nutritionally balanced. The germ issue isn't necessarily an issue for the dog--dogs can handle a lot more bacteria than humans can. The reason they discourage therapy dogs from being raw fed is for the humans, especially those with compromised immune systems.

My biggest pet peeve is with people who promote misinformation. (I'm not talking about you, Ann.) It makes me a little leery about whether they can handle the added responsibilities of raw feeding. But if someone has done their due diligence and is not endangering anyone else, it can work.
Yep yep :thumbup::thumbup:

mimimomo 06-28-2017 02:39 PM
About the freezing & killing of parasites in raw meat...I think it works for mainly fish & wild hunted animals. Most raw feeders are very careful in resourcing their raw meats, most come from local butchers & suppliers of human grade fresh meats.
I would be more concerned about the 4D meats (dead, diseased, dying & disabled animals) that go into making kibble. Just sayin.

Myths About Raw: Will my dog aquire parasites from raw meat?

Freezing meat can help kill many parasites (such as the parasite present in salmon that CAN cause a deadly disease in dogs; freezing fresh raw salmon, steelhead, trout, and other salmonids for at least 24 hours before feeding effectively disposes of the parasite. Cooked salmon does not carry the parasite.). As long as one exercises caution in obtaining their meat, parasites are a non-issue. If feeding fresh salmonids or wild game, it is recommended that the meat be deep frozen for at least 24 hours before feeding for salmonids and one month for wild game.

mimimomo 06-28-2017 02:54 PM
Look @ it this way...when it comes to germs/ bacteria, etc...

When you handle & cook raw chicken or a steak, did you ever get sick?
Not really, bc you make sure you're handling the raw meats safely, clean the prep area. Same w/ their raw food.
Do you disinfect the sponge? Not really right? You just use it on all the other dishes...nobody got sick right?

I personally have a separate sponge just for their glass bowls. But I have used their sponge by mistake to clean human dishes! gasp LOL :p but I knew it was cleaner than our sponge bc I use hot water on theirs' & not really on ours'.

pstinard 06-28-2017 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomo (Post 4732498)
About the freezing & killing of parasites in raw meat...I think it works for mainly fish & wild hunted animals. Most raw feeders are very careful in resourcing their raw meats, most come from local butchers & suppliers of human grade fresh meats.
I would be more concerned about the 4D meats (dead, diseased, dying & disabled animals) that go into making kibble. Just sayin.

Myths About Raw: Will my dog aquire parasites from raw meat?

Freezing meat can help kill many parasites (such as the parasite present in salmon that CAN cause a deadly disease in dogs; freezing fresh raw salmon, steelhead, trout, and other salmonids for at least 24 hours before feeding effectively disposes of the parasite. Cooked salmon does not carry the parasite.). As long as one exercises caution in obtaining their meat, parasites are a non-issue. If feeding fresh salmonids or wild game, it is recommended that the meat be deep frozen for at least 24 hours before feeding for salmonids and one month for wild game.
Parasites are rare to nonexistent in commercial meats. I was referring to bacteria like Salmonella and E. coli, which are NOT killed by freezing. Sure, if you're going to hunt and kill game for your Yorkie, then freezing will reduce the parasite population. That's small consolation, however...

pstinard 06-28-2017 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomo (Post 4732500)
Look @ it this way...when it comes to germs/ bacteria, etc...

When you handle & cook raw chicken or a steak, did you ever get sick?
Not really, bc you make sure you're handling the raw meats safely, clean the prep area. Same w/ their raw food.
Do you disinfect the sponge? Not really right? You just use it on all the other dishes...nobody got sick right?

I personally have a separate sponge just for their glass bowls. But I have used their sponge by mistake to clean human dishes! gasp LOL :p but I knew it was cleaner than our sponge bc I use hot water on theirs' & not really on ours'.
So, when you ate raw chicken, did you get sick? (This is the correct analogy.) Personally, I wouldn't dream of doing that. Dogs fed Salmonella will shed Salmonella in their stools, and people with weakened immune systems will be endangered by that since people with pets are exposed to fecal matter much more than they realize. (It's not like a chicken setting up on a cutting board that you know is there so you can sterilize the surface.) That's why they don't recommend raw feeding for therapy dogs. I could trot out a few research articles if you're interested. It kind of p***es me off that people are cavalier about dismissing scientific research and blithely endangering the health of others, so I'm probably going to step away from this thread for a while...

pstinard 06-28-2017 05:00 PM
Raw diets and danger to immunocompromised individuals.
 
I was willing to let this slide, but here are just a few of the many research articles about bacterial contamination of raw dog foods and/or potential dangers to people with compromised immune systems, as well as discussions of the risks of feeding raw diets to therapy dogs.

Evaluation of the Risks of Shedding Salmonellae and Other Potential Pathogens by Therapy Dogs Fed Raw Diets in Ontario and Alberta - Lefebvre - 2008 - Zoonoses and Public Health - Wiley Online Library

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1716752/

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article...-of-Salmonella

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1140397/

Evaluation of bacterial and protozoal contamination of commercially available raw meat diets for dogs

The Occurrence and Antimicrobial Susceptibility of Salmonellae Isolated from Commercially Available Canine Raw Food Diets in Three Canadian Cities - Finley - 2008 - Zoonoses and Public Health - Wiley Online Library

pstinard 06-28-2017 05:12 PM
One last article, with quotes.
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2684052/

"This study explored the impact of feeding raw meat to dogs on the fecal prevalence of several enteric bacterial zoonotic pathogens. Campylobacter jejuni was isolated from 1/42 (2.6%) raw meat-fed dogs. Salmonella enterica was isolated from 2/40 (5%) of the raw meat feeds, 6/42 (14%) raw meat-fed dog feces, none of the dogs that did not receive raw meat (P = 0.001), 4/38 (10.5%) of the vacuum cleaner waste samples from households where raw meat was fed, and 2/44 (4.5%) of vacuum cleaner waste samples from households where raw meat was not fed to dogs (P = 0.41). Responses to a questionnaire probing practices and beliefs regarding raw meat feeding that was administered to dog owners demonstrated that dog owners may either not be aware or refuse to acknowledge the risks associated with raw meat-feeding; thus, they may neglect to conduct adequate intervention strategies to prevent zoonoses among themselves and their families."

Lovetodream88 06-28-2017 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomo (Post 4732498)
About the freezing & killing of parasites in raw meat...I think it works for mainly fish & wild hunted animals. Most raw feeders are very careful in resourcing their raw meats, most come from local butchers & suppliers of human grade fresh meats.
I would be more concerned about the 4D meats (dead, diseased, dying & disabled animals) that go into making kibble. Just sayin.

Myths About Raw: Will my dog aquire parasites from raw meat?

Freezing meat can help kill many parasites (such as the parasite present in salmon that CAN cause a deadly disease in dogs; freezing fresh raw salmon, steelhead, trout, and other salmonids for at least 24 hours before feeding effectively disposes of the parasite. Cooked salmon does not carry the parasite.). As long as one exercises caution in obtaining their meat, parasites are a non-issue. If feeding fresh salmonids or wild game, it is recommended that the meat be deep frozen for at least 24 hours before feeding for salmonids and one month for wild game.
Not all dog food has that in them and sometimes kibble is the only option. Germs is what I would be worried about not parasites.

Lovetodream88 06-28-2017 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomo (Post 4732500)
Look @ it this way...when it comes to germs/ bacteria, etc...

When you handle & cook raw chicken or a steak, did you ever get sick?
Not really, bc you make sure you're handling the raw meats safely, clean the prep area. Same w/ their raw food.
Do you disinfect the sponge? Not really right? You just use it on all the other dishes...nobody got sick right?

I personally have a separate sponge just for their glass bowls. But I have used their sponge by mistake to clean human dishes! gasp LOL :p but I knew it was cleaner than our sponge bc I use hot water on theirs' & not really on ours'.
No we use wipes and paper towels that can be thrown away and you can't soap up the dogs face every time or even there mouth.

mimimomo 06-28-2017 06:22 PM
Since we're all here to learn...I was NOT talking about bacteria like salmonella or listeria, etc.
I did not respond to anyone's post, just showing what can be killed by freezing.

mimimomo 06-28-2017 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4732507)
So, when you ate raw chicken, did you get sick? (This is the correct analogy.) Personally, I wouldn't dream of doing that. Dogs fed Salmonella will shed Salmonella in their stools, and people with weakened immune systems will be endangered by that since people with pets are exposed to fecal matter much more than they realize. (It's not like a chicken setting up on a cutting board that you know is there so you can sterilize the surface.) That's why they don't recommend raw feeding for therapy dogs. I could trot out a few research articles if you're interested. It kind of p***es me off that people are cavalier about dismissing scientific research and blithely endangering the health of others, so I'm probably going to step away from this thread for a while...
I'm not disagreeing w/ you nor am I dismissing scientific research, I know about the salmonella raw fed dogs shed in their feces. Kibble fed dogs also shed some amount of salmonella.

I get pissed off when some people around my neighborhood don't pick up after their dog...there's children walking to & from school. I always pick up other dog's poop when walking my own dogs...come home w/ a bag full of s*#! LOL.

I was just trying to say, practice safe raw meat handling & you should be fine.


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