Fromm vs Nature's Variety vs Orijen
 

Hi! My breeder recommended Fromm puppy food (pink bag). Gracie ate it readily and at a year I have put her on the adult version....two types......the one Gracie is on is the purple bad which is for small breeds. Fromm gets quite quickly good review overall.

You don't have to stick to small breed. I have always done that because mine will not eat big pieces of food. Although I would recommend Acana over Orijen because I have heard a lot of people complain about bloody poo on Orijen because the protien being so high. My dog is very picky and has always loved Royal Canin.

These are all excellent brands, but the Orijen kibble *might* be a little big, it's hard to say. I think Natures Logic is an excellent kibble - it may be one you also want to consider; you can get it on Amazon, btw.

I've home cooked for my dogs but use Royal Canin when they eat kibble and they love it.

I'm a fan of Fromm everything but my Yorkie is huge!

We use Nature's Logic and a big plus for them is that all their vitamins are natural, no synthetic and 100% made in the USA. Most synthetic vitamins are coming from China, and their quality control isn't the greatest. I personally have studied the synthetic v. natural vitamin debate for over (well a long time) and I'm getting more leery of synthetic vitamins for humans as well.

I found a dog boutique 5 minutes away from me and they had samples to all these brands. Daisy really liked Orijen, she didn't seem that interested in Fromm or natures variety. We live in an apartment so I don't think all that protein is necessary, does Acana have the same percentage of protein that Orijen has?

No is lower

I wouldn't really think of this in this way. I mean, if you think of it in the other way -- is higher carb really necessary? Personally, I believe it's much, much healthier for both humans and animals to be on a leaner, higher protein diet than on a high carb diet...way healthier and less inflammatory in general too.

For what it's worth, dogs with an underlying liver or kidney problem could find their condition exacerbated by higher protein foods:

The Dangers of High Protein Dog Foods | petMD

Each dog is different. It's difficult to generalize what is best for all dogs--whatever works best for your particular dog is what you should stick with, keeping in mind the health issues your dog has.

Much of the information regarding high protein and dogs is because in the past protein was of a lower quality, for example, corn can be added to the food and the overall protein goes up, but it's not a high quality protein and lower quality is more difficult for the liver and kidneys to process.

"Protein is processed in the liver and any waste materials are filtered and excreted by the kidneys. High quality protein does not generate large amounts of waste that needs to be removed from the body, but poor quality protein which is difficult to digest does and thus puts stress on the kidneys. The liver needs water to process protein and as a medium to carry waste products to the kidneys, where they are filtered out and most of the water is reabsorbed. The less concentrated the waste products in this primary filtrate are, the easier it is for the kidneys to do their filtering work - that's why it is unhealthy to feed dry food only and so critical that dogs eating mostly or exclusively dry food and dogs with liver disease get lots of extra water." The Dog Food Project - Is too much protein harmful?.

Of course, if your dog has liver and kidney problems, a special diet is in order, but a higher protein diet of high quality protein (not corn and beaks and hair) will not cause liver and kidney problems.

I agree...but a dog w/ pancreatitis would have trouble w/ high fat diets, and a dog w/ diabetes wouldn't do as well on a high carb diet....and so on and so on.

I wasn't making the recommendation based upon a sick dog, I was making it based upon assuming the poster was posting about her generally healthy dog.

Well, yes and no. Beaks and hair are not digestible, and pass though the dog's body much like fiber does. There are ten essential amino that dogs need in their diet (see https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/dog-c...your-dog-needs). If your dog's protein source includes these amino acids, then the dog will get by on less total protein overall, and it will be less stress on the kidneys and liver. Low quality protein that doesn't contain these essential amino acids is simply wasted effort for the dog to digest. But if you're feeding your dog high quantities of protein, it doesn't matter if it is all high quality protein, it's still more of a stress on the system--the excess protein is wasted. ALL proteins, both high and low quality, produce nitrogenous waste that has to be filtered by the kidneys. My point is that a high protein diet is problematic because it's not needed, and it stresses the system. A regular recommended level of high quality protein is healthier than high levels of protein, regardless of quality. So long as your dog is getting the nutrients it needs for good health, adding more doesn't make it better--it either goes to waste, or it is stressful on the liver and kidneys. I'm just putting that out there and moving on...

Okay, high protein may be harmless for most dogs, but is it necessary or desirable? I'll just throw out one last thing (from The Dangers of High Protein Dog Foods | petMD), which is staffed by veterinarians and veterinarian nutritionists:

Is Excessive Protein in Dog Food Bad for My Pet?


Protein is a calorie dense nutrient and many of the high protein diets are extremely high in calories and can quickly lead to weight gain. With over 50% of dogs in the U.S. considered overweight or obese, dog owners need to be aware of where those extra calories are hiding. If a dog has kidney or liver issues consuming too much protein can increase the workload on these organs and upset the balance of nutrients leading to exacerbation of disease.

Rather than look for a dog food that contains excessive levels of protein you should find one that is specifically formulated for your dog’s lifestyle, life stage, and size. A working sled dog, for example, will have significantly different nutrient and caloric requirements than the average pet dog that ventures outside for a few walks a day and spends the rest of the time lounging. These two dogs should not be fed the same diet.

Puppies, meanwhile, require more protein than adult dogs because their bodies are busy growing. Among breeds of puppies there are different requirements for nutrients as well. For instance large breed puppies like Labrador retrievers need a much different diet than a Yorkie for optimal growth. Feeding large breed puppies something that is too high in protein may make them put on weight too quickly causing abnormal joint development and making them more prone to issues like arthritis in the future.

The safest diets are those that have been developed by pet food companies that invest in scientific research, consult with veterinary nutritionists, and perform feeding trials to develop their diets. This will provide a pet food that is properly balanced without any excess nutrients that are unnecessary and in some cases harmful for your dog.

Exactly. My dog has both liver and kidney disease. She eats 25% protein, 14% fat and 10% fiber. That is not a high carb diet. It's a moderate protein restriction with a more severe phosphorous restriction. About to turn 15 here and prefect blood work and kidneys still holding with a normal creatinine. It's all about who is formulating the food. I'm just not ok with lay people doing it, even for a young dog with no medical problems.

When you say high protein, what is your number that means high? I disagree that a high quality protein is a stress on the system for a healthy dog. I'm not suggesting 100% protein, but there is a lot of new information out there that suggests at least 30% protein, instead of the common 20-25% found in some famous dog foods. The Best Dog Food - What it's Like & How to Find it | petMD | petMD. So when I say high protein, I just mean the new recommended levels that many vets are suggesting.

If your making homemade and getting protein from these meats I wouldn't worry. Dog food high protein maybe different. Kibble isn't the same quality...

I feed kibble..but to me its a processed food. Just like human food imo processed foods are garbage. I don't care how much science goes into it. Getting your nutrition from Natural foods is better. And maybe supplement that if needed. That being said I've never dealt with kidney or liver ailments and really don't know how it would affect a dog. But processed if the lowest form of foods imo

I think that 30% is still okay for most dogs. When I think of excessively high protein, I think of 40% or higher. Here are some recommendations from Drs. Foster and Smith: Dog Food FAQs: Protein For some circumstances, 30% is recommended.

These kinds of articles don't mean much to me bc I could go out and find basically the exact same article w/ the title "Is Excessive Carb in Dog Food Bad for my Pet?" and "Is Excessive Fat in Dog Food Bad for my Pet?" or "Is Excessive Fish Oil in Dog Food Bad for my Pet?" and so on -- it's whatever current nutrient is "in vogue" to write about, so they don't really hold weight with me (nor do vets writing about nutrition, lol :rolleyes:). Dog foods are generally very well balanced for, well, dogs...so unless a particular dog has an illness, dog food is unlikely to actually damage them...any more so than our usually very unbalanced human diets do any real, measurable damage to us.

Carbs are metabolized into fat much easier and faster than longer-chain proteins. So again, like I always say -- I'd much rather have a higher protein diet for both human and pets than a higher carb diet. That's my belief and that's what I believe works for me and my dogs.

The statement I bolded is definitely not true from a scientific standpoint. I'd rather follow the advice of a veterinary nutritionist, myself. And if I had a dog that is overweight, I'd put it on a diet (reduce food portions, but ensure that the dog is getting all of its nutritional needs met). Extra protein isn't a weight loss solution.

I just read through this thread and all of the information that you shared. I'm hoping that if others read through the thread they will pick up on your veterinary based links to help make decisions regarding this issue. It's always nice to discuss topics while giving our own personal choices and opinions. But the adds bonus of being able to back them up with information shared by the experts (vets) is a most.

Just in case you didn't notice, the link I posted stating that 30% protein is a minimum is from the exact same source as the link pstinard posted asking about excessive protein in dog food. The Best Dog Food - What it's Like & How to Find it | petMD | petMD Obviously, if anything is "excessive" it bad, otherwise, it's not excessive. There's a lot of good information out there and much of what we know in terms of nutrition can be learned from studies in human nutrition. Nutritional information is changing all the time, and much of the information is shared across species.

By the way, Here’s another paper on protein in the same approved source. Link: http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/e...diet?page=show

In Focusing on Protein in the Diet, the author states,
.

For anyone confused about canine nutrition - this White Paper by Orijen has always always been one of my favorite pieces of education....it's very informative, well written, easy to read for a lay person or whatnot.

http://www.orijen.ie/acatalog/ORIJEN...er%2809%29.pdf

We have had several people come on this bored and were feeding ther dog Orijen and there dog was having bloody stools but when the switched foods the problems went away. I wish I could remember the thread where a poster said there vet said it was to much protien. That is why I don't suggest Orijen.

Bloody stools can also be caused by doing a food switch too rapidly. When switching to a new food, it's best to do a very gradual switch, especially if it's a difference source of protein, or any other major differences.

Well, I'd sure like know how a vet scientifically explained that protein causes bloody stools and how they had proof of that. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

A bloody stool could be from a hundred things.

And is that backed by fourple-blind, longitudinal, repeatable to infinity, published everywhere studies that are agree upon by every approved scientist on the planet??? Or, not? (I'm not actually asking the question here, I'm just being facetious)

Look pstinard and megansmomma, this board is a FORUM, and it's owned by Admin -- who encourages and welcomes all opinions here, even those and especially those whose are not necessarily scientifically based -- because perhaps it's from those angles that we sometimes have the best discussions (where, in fact, science does often come to the forefront).

YorkieTalk is NOT a scientific community, so please do not make passive aggressive attempts or comments that insinuate posting anything other than science is all that's acceptable or valid here at YT. We are receiving an extremely disappointing amount of private messages from members who no longer even want to post here at YT for fear of being attacked if they're not posting something they can also back up with science. They are also fearful of posting anything whatsoever regarding holistic or natural treatments. This is unacceptable and we will not foster a community such as that. If you prefer a community that allows and encourages only scientific discourse, then this community may not feel right to you...that's up for you to decide.

YT encourages all members to feel welcome to post opinions, articles, and discussions of all kinds. If anyone cannot be/feel open to other avenues of treatment, vet care, or discussion -- then you may refrain from posting on said subject. Thank you.